Oh? Have you spoken with him as a companion? Listened to his banter with your party members? Ever recruited him?
.
There's one conversation about slavery... where he blows it off and blames you for stopping him, which was highly unsatisfying.
We can discuss this in PM if you'd like, rather than spoil it for those who are about to recruit him.
We can discuss this in PM if you'd like, rather than spoil it for those who are about to recruit him.
. I'm fairly certain I won't hear every conversation, and I'll probably end up using the wiki to read some.
I don't actually mind that much
Ah. Well, fine then. Yes, you can talk to Loghain about the slavery. From his perspective, he mentions how Ferelden's coffers are nearly empty, as a result of the Civil War, all the banns and arls arming as many men as they can, gathering supplies and killing each other. Even though he pretty much won the civil war (based on the gossipers as the game progresses) Ferelden no longer had the money or the supplies available to fight the darkspawn.
Tevinter made an offer, and payed exorbitant amounts for access to the alienage, and Loghain agreed so he could defend Ferelden.
What he does is most certainly not moral in any way, but he does stand behind his reasons. Ferelden wouldn't be able to supply itself had he not made that deal. He's upset that the Warden stopped it. Whether it's justifiable or not, I'm not going to touch, but if you bring it up during the Landsmeet, that is also the reason he gives for allowing it to happen.
I think Xil is upset that she can't outright blame him and that he doesn't take responsibility for it, and there is a darn good reason why she can feel that way. When I first spoke with him over the issue, I was also quite upset.
I think he does take responsibility for what he does, but he won't apologize for doing something he feels is necessary. That's what I make of him.
I don't actually mind that much
It's basically tripe. The slave trading was supposed to be a solution to a problem that he created, but then you had to go and ruin it. Naturally, that makes the sorry state of Ferelden your fault.
It's basically tripe. The slave trading was supposed to be a solution to a problem that he created, but then you had to go and ruin it. Naturally, that makes the sorry state of Ferelden your fault.
Technically, he didn't start the civil war, but the nobles who resented him, tried to take advantage of an apparent power vacuum, or refused to follow 'a commoner' created the problem.
Seriously, think about it. His daughter was born to a nobleman, that noble was once a commoner, true, but she is no more common than any other bann. She also married Cailan, the legitimate heir, and never stopped being the Queen. Even if they disagreed with Loghain, they still owed loyalty to Anora, their queen. Loghain never declares himself king, he's Anora's regent.
As the regent of a legitimate queen, he has every right to call for troops, even if he DID insult many nobles, and was woefully tactless in doing so. But everything up to the civil war was legitimate on his end.
I remember that Howe was ammassing a fortune though.Ah. Well, fine then. Yes, you can talk to Loghain about the slavery. From his perspective, he mentions how Ferelden's coffers are nearly empty, as a result of the Civil War, all the banns and arls arming as many men as they can, gathering supplies and killing each other. Even though he pretty much won the civil war (based on the gossipers as the game progresses) Ferelden no longer had the money or the supplies available to fight the darkspawn.
Tevinter made an offer, and payed exorbitant amounts for access to the alienage, and Loghain agreed so he could defend Ferelden.
What he does is most certainly not moral in any way, but he does stand behind his reasons. Ferelden wouldn't be able to supply itself had he not made that deal. He's upset that the Warden stopped it. Whether it's justifiable or not, I'm not going to touch, but if you bring it up during the Landsmeet, that is also the reason he gives for allowing it to happen.
I think Xil is upset that she can't outright blame him and that he doesn't take responsibility for it, and there is a darn good reason why she can feel that way. When I first spoke with him over the issue, I was also quite upset.
I think he does take responsibility for what he does, but he won't apologize for doing something he feels is necessary. That's what I make of him.
I remember that Howe was ammassing a fortune though.
yes, through extortion, thuggish methods, and my Warden relieved him of it.
That was satisfying.
Agreed. It was one of my favorite moments of the game, expecially since I played as a Cousland my first time.yes, through extortion, thuggish methods, and my Warden relieved him of it.
That was satisfying.
Technically, he didn't start the civil war, but the nobles who resented him, tried to take advantage of an apparent power vacuum, or refused to follow 'a commoner' created the problem.
Seriously, think about it. His daughter was born to a nobleman, that noble was once a commoner, true, but she is no more common than any other bann. She also married Cailan, the legitimate heir, and never stopped being the Queen. Even if they disagreed with Loghain, they still owed loyalty to Anora, their queen. Loghain never declares himself king, he's Anora's regent.
As the regent of a legitimate queen, he has every right to call for troops, even if he DID insult many nobles, and was woefully tactless in doing so. But everything up to the civil war was legitimate on his end.
He doesn't have to, officially. But his intent to act as the de-facto king is clear, which what makes his retreat from Ostagar look less like a necessary means to consolidate power and regroup, and more like a power play.
The real question from your post is this, should we have been allowed to make Howe a warden....And how many of us would have done it? duh duh duh
I suspect that Howe would have refused anyway, judging from his personality.
He doesn't have to, officially. But his intent to act as the de-facto king is clear, which what makes his retreat from Ostagar look less like a necessary means to consolidate power and regroup, and more like a power play.
I agree, it most certainly does look that way, which is why Teagon says he's mad with power.
Talking with him when he's a companion, asking him what his overall plans were, listening to his banter with your companions and so on will reveal a very different story.
Loghain is not a politician. He doesn't think about his appearance or how he comes across. He's a general, he thinks about doing what he needs to to accomplish the mission.
I agree, it most certainly does look that way, which is why Teagon says he's mad with power.
Talking with him when he's a companion, asking him what his overall plans were, listening to his banter with your companions and so on will reveal a very different story.
Loghain is not a politician. He doesn't think about his appearance or how he comes across. He's a general, he thinks about doing what he needs to to accomplish the mission.
Then he shouldn't try to be something he's not. He might have his own line of thinking when it comes to approaching the situation in Ferelden, but that's not an excuse he can hide behind when his methods fail miserably.
So shutting them down and freeing them somehow completely wipes away the intentions behind such an atrocity? It handwaves that it would have happened had not the PC intervened?
And that's hilarious coming from you.
The Intention if it wasn't obvious was to fund the War effort, it doesn't hand given the Warden can if so morally aligned can do similar things and even tolerate the Slave Trade for their own ends, As i said morality is subjective.
If you don't support the notion of using such a practice to bolster you're cause then don't forgive the action, However if you believe its actually a viable tactic, such as preserving the Anvil and constructing Golems out of willing or unwilling participants. Or even making use of the very slaves you can save to acquire the means to smear Loghain and gain profit from it, or using their very lives in a blood magic ritual to bolster their own vitality. Civil Liberties and freedoms ultimately only matter as much as the PC decides them to matter from their perspective.
I'm just pointing that out.
The Intention if it wasn't obvious was to fund the War effort, it doesn't hand given the Warden can if so morally aligned can do similar things and even tolerate the Slave Trade for their own ends, As i said morality is subjective.
If you don't support the notion of using such a practice to bolster you're cause then don't forgive the action, However if you believe its actually a viable tactic, such as preserving the Anvil and constructing Golems out of willing or unwilling participants. Or even making use of the very slaves you can save to acquire the means to smear Loghain and gain profit from it, or using their very lives in a blood magic ritual to bolster their own vitality. Civil Liberties and freedoms ultimately only matter as much as the PC decides them to matter from their perspective.
I'm just pointing that out.
Fair enough.
The PC should still be able to call ya boy Loghain out on his skullduggery, however; my PC would wipe her ass with Loghain's intentions.
Fair enough.
The PC should still be able to call ya boy Loghain out on his skullduggery, however; my PC would wipe her ass with Loghain's intentions.
Wouldn't have minded or been opposed to the opportunity even if the majority of my own Warden's wouldn't have overly cared.
There isn't much that is "forbidden" or "taboo" when you are combating a possible literal ending of days.
Survival of the world and continuance of civilization go head and shoulders over most everything else, Its the Warden Mandate after all.
Something that some Wardens such as Alistair seem incapable of grasping.
Wouldn't have minded or been opposed to the opportunity even if the majority of my own Warden's wouldn't have overly cared.
There isn't much that is "forbidden" or "taboo" when you are combating a possible literal ending of days.
Survival of the world and continuance of civilization go head and shoulders over most everything else, Its the Warden Mandate after all.
Something that some Wardens such as Alistair seem incapable of grasping.
Good point. Though I do not believe that sending assassins and doing everything in one's power to end the Grey Wardens is a wise move during the events of Origins, neither is inviting a civil war. Keeping the Loghain is a good pragmatic move, but unnecessary. You do not need him after all.
Good point. Though I do not believe that sending assassins and doing everything in one's power to end the Grey Wardens is a wise move during the events of Origins, neither is inviting a civil war. Keeping the Loghain is a good pragmatic move, but unnecessary. You do not need him after all.
Riordan makes a decent case for his usage however, he is a capable warrior and tactician.
He has the experience of both a general and a warrior, and Ultimately a living person can combat the blight a heck of a lot more efficiently then a corpse, Zevran wasn't wrong when he pointed out that little tidbit.
His he required to the defeat the Blight? No more so then Alistair, but in Theory you are trading a unavowed templar and Novice grey Warden for an experienced warrior and commander. Just saying that argument has Merit.
Riordan makes a decent case for his usage however, he is a capable warrior and tactician.
He has the experience of both a general and a warrior, and Ultimately a living person can combat the blight a heck of a lot more efficiently then a corpse, Zevran wasn't wrong when he pointed out that little tidbit.
His he required to the defeat the Blight? No more so then Alistair, but in Theory you are trading a unavowed templar and Novice grey Warden for an experienced warrior and commander. Just saying that argument has Merit.
You're not wrong.
Though betraying a friend is something that cannot be condoned. Not even in video games imo. Love him or hate him, Alistair has had your back from the get go and hasn't really asked for a damned thing in return, while Loghain spends most of the game trying to have you killed. As good as Loghain might be, I'd rather have the heir to the throne and someone I can trust at my back. He's a damn good warrior/templar himself, after all it is the Warden Commander Duncan who recruited him.
Riordan makes a decent case for his usage however, he is a capable warrior and tactician.
He has the experience of both a general and a warrior, and Ultimately a living person can combat the blight a heck of a lot more efficiently then a corpse, Zevran wasn't wrong when he pointed out that little tidbit.
His he required to the defeat the Blight? No more so then Alistair, but in Theory you are trading a unavowed templar and Novice grey Warden for an experienced warrior and commander. Just saying that argument has Merit.
But Loghain simply can't be trusted, the man has even betrayed his best friend multiple times. Remember Flemeth's prophecy? Plus the Right of Conscription is practically only used in situations that won't damage the warden's reputation. If Ferelden already had some issues with the wardens then having a known traitor/slaver/co-conspirator in torture become a warden wouldn't do the order any favors in Ferelden.
Furthermore, Loghain isn't the only viable option. There are literally hundreds of experienced knights, guards and other individuals in the Landsmeet and Denerem at that very moment. Why not recruit any of them? What about anyone in the party like Zevran or Oghren? It makes no sense for Loghain to be the only option in that situation.
But to stir back on topic, even having Hardened Alistair ditch the wardens on the eve of battle because Loghain was recruited can be considered as well. Any sympathy that I may feel for Alistair is undercut because he's literally turning his back on Ferelden because of his feelings for one man. A traitor, sure. But does Alistair believe Duncan would've approved of Alistair's desertion?
Loghain cannot be trusted. But what reason would he have to betray you if he has undergone the joining? Or even at all when he's stripped naked for all to see at the Landsmeet?
Loghain cannot be trusted. But what reason would he have to betray you if he has undergone the joining? Or even at all when he's stripped naked for all to see at the Landsmeet?
He did spend his entire life fighting and bleeding for his Nation, even defeated why would you not trust his decision to stand by it, even to death?
If there is ONE thing you can trust about Loghain.
It's him putting his homeland before ANYTHING else.
He did spend his entire life fighting and bleeding for his Nation, even defeated why would you not trust his decision to stand by it, even to death?
If there is ONE thing you can trust about Loghain.
It's him putting his homeland before ANYTHING else.
Yeah, though it isn't unreasonable in the slightest to be wary of the man who was doing everything in his power to see you dead not five minutes ago.
Yeah, though it isn't unreasonable in the slightest to be wary of the man who was doing everything in his power to see you dead not five minutes ago.
On the flipside, if you do try to recruit Loghain, Alistair, who complains constantly about not wanting to be king, is ready to step forward and take the crown JUST to get Loghain executed.
It doesn't matter if it's a friend or not, that kind of attitude is the LAST thing you need as a monarch, and any ruler who has that attitude of using power for personal vendettas simply cannot be trusted either.
I am sorry I couldn't disagree more with this post. People do selfish things all the time. It's human nature. To your first example of Isolde. For a start it's her child. If someone said they were going to take away your child because they had six fingers and if you didn't produce the child within an alloted amount of time they would start killing people, would you just hand your child over? Of course not. You can still be angry and sympathetic at the same time.
With Loghain, it's a little bit like any leader. They truly beleive that what they are doing is the right thing and that you cannot make an omlette without breaking eggs. People were going to die no matter what was done. I think I read a post somewhere that explained that the fight couldnt be won wether Loghain retreated or not. Running away or tactical withdraw?
I don't think Bioware really expect you to sympathise with these people but they do expect you to understand why they di what they did even though you might not agree with it. I think I might have done the same had I been in these peoples shoes. The right way in your eyes isn't always the right way in someone else's.
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