20 réponses à ce sujet

[Swoopdogg]

There was a post on here that got locked (so out of fear of this getting locked, it and its poster shall remain nameless). Basically, the OP said that Cassandra (or any warrior) should not be able to smash a big iron fort gate, like what we saw in the PAX demo.

 

This got me thinking a little more about class dynamic outside of combat, and extending the utility of the warrior class, which is really only useful inside of combat in DAO and DA2. Now, I'm faithful that Bioware knows what they're doing in this regard (after all, they're Bioware. Class dynamic is their speciality).

 

But, I had some thoughts on the issue.

 

(Regarding warriors being able to break locks and doors)

 

Warriors should be able to break locks up to a certain level. If a lock is, let's say, hard or very hard, a warrior should not be able to break it. Even with a high strength score. It simply breaks class dynamic.

 

A single warrior should not be able to break a big iron gate. However, if you have two warriors in your party, I'd say two of them together could bash that thing down (as long as their strength scores are high enough)

 

A mage should be able to singlehandedly break that gate with earth magic (perhaps with a high enough magic score) or...

 

A mage could cast an ice spell on the gate, and then only one warrior would be necessary for breaking the gate (because of that whole "brittle" effect)

 

And rogues should still be the only ones who can disarm traps. Period. Class dynamic.

 

Anyway, thoughts? I hope we can have a civilized discussion.

[Swoopdogg]

Maybe, but what else am I supposed to do while waiting for release?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Good lord, you people work fast.

Well I don't know about you, but I've never seen iron shatter into pieces before. It usually bends when enough pressure is applied to it, sometimes snaps at critical stress areas, but shatters? Nah. I'm betting either the door wasn't meant to be an iron door, or this is simply a gameplay/story segregation.

Personally I don't think lockpicking has anything to do with breaking down the gate. I think the gate was a blocked off area, and warriors have the ability to break these areas because the warriors have to have something to make them useful outside of purely combat scenarios. I don't mind letting them able to break down doors like a battering ram, rather then having to be shackled to a rogue for everything.

Mages will probably have their own useful ability outside of combat that everyone will decry as being bullshit, same with rogues, and to those people I say let it go cause it doesn't actually matter much. Making every task require combinations to achieve seems overly tedious and inefficient for something that won't break immersion for a majority of people.

And if the last thread was any indication, yes, this sort of thing doesn't bother a majority of people.

[Maria Caliban]

One of the assumptions people tend to run with is that in Thedas, only mages get access to supernatural abilities. This obviously isn't true.

 

Thedas is a setting where non-mages can gain supernatural abilities through: drinking darkspawn blood, drinking dragon blood, making a deal with a demon, ingesting blue/red lyrium, and joining with a spirit. That doesn't even cover edge cases like the Champion or Berzerker, who simply learn special techniques that may not give them superhuman powers, but are certainly far outside what a normal warrior might achieve.

 

Then there are things like being turned into a werewolf. Now even common people with no special training can rend others limb from limb.

 

Many people point to A Song of Ice and Fire as a good bar for low fantasy. Well, he has wizards and magic users who can give birth to shadows. Then we have people like Rickton who isn't a mage but is joining with some primordial plant spirit. Then we have Arya who learns to see through the eyes of a cat, and is becoming part of an assassins society where members can change their face at will.

 

Non-mages, supernatural abilities. And this is rather common in low magic fantasy.

 

Not to mention that in DA II there are hints that once all people in Thedas could do magic. It's possible that people still have a weak connection to whatever that power source is even if they can't cast spells.

[Swoopdogg]

Good lord, you people work fast.

Well I don't know about you, but I've never seen iron shatter into pieces before. It usually bends when enough pressure is applied to it, sometimes snaps at critical stress areas, but shatters? Nah. I'm betting either the door wasn't meant to be an iron door, or this is simply a gameplay/story segregation.

Personally I don't think lockpicking has anything to do with breaking down the gate. I think the gate was a blocked off area, and warriors have the ability to break these areas because the warriors have to have something to make them useful outside of purely combat scenarios. I don't mind letting them able to break down doors like a battering ram, rather then having to be shackled to a rogue for everything.

Mages will probably have their own useful ability outside of combat that everyone will decry as being bullshit, same with rogues, and to those people I say let it go cause it doesn't actually matter much. Making every task require combinations to achieve seems overly tedious and inefficient for something that won't break immersion for a majority of people.

And if the last thread was any indication, yes, this sort of thing doesn't bother a majority of people.

Let me be clear, I am in no way complaining about the human battering ram. I just think, for the sake of realism (not that we need any, mind you) there could be some variation.

 

Honestly, if it stayed the way it is, I'd be fine. But if an idea comes to me (or in this case several) I have to post it or I'll go crazy

[Swoopdogg]

One of the assumptions people tend to run with is that in Thedas, only mages get access to supernatural abilities. This obviously isn't true.

 

Thedas is a setting where non-mages can gain supernatural abilities through: drinking darkspawn blood, drinking dragon blood, making a deal with a demon, ingesting blue/red lyrium, and joining with a spirit. That doesn't even cover edge cases like the Champion or Berzerker, who simply learn special techniques that may not give them superhuman powers, but are certainly far outside what a normal warrior might achieve.

 

Then there are things like being turned into a werewolf. Now even common people with no special training can rend others limb from limb.

 

Many people point to A Song of Ice and Fire as a good bar for low fantasy. Well, he has wizards and magic users who can give birth to shadows. Then we have people like Rickton who isn't a mage but is joining with some primordial plant spirit. Then we have Arya who learns to see through the eyes of a cat, and is becoming part of an assassins society where members can change their face at will.

 

Non-mages, supernatural abilities. And this is rather common in low magic fantasy.

 

Not to mention that in DA II there are hints that once all people in Thedas could do magic. It's possible that people still have a weak connection to whatever that power source is even if they can't cast spells.

Interesting.

 

In that case, maybe there might be some sort of explanation for why a warrior can smash a gate. Some kind of self-augmentation through lyrium, dragonblood, wyvernblood, giantblood, etc, etc? I'd be interested in the lore side of this.

 

Granted, there may not be any lore behind it and it's just a gameplay feature. In that case, I may be slightly disappointed, but not too much for it to break immersion for me.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Cool then. I just don't think we neccisarily need combinations of abilities in order to get through every, single, goddamn, door. We could have special doors that require those types of combinations, ones with enchantments on them or maybe more puzzle based ones we need to solve.

That would be fine. But please don't make the default way to open doors be to have a mage blast it and then a warrior hit it. That's just overly tedious to do and would feel like a trip up to the flow of the game.

[Swoopdogg]

Cool then. I just don't think we neccisarily need combinations of abilities in order to get through every, single, goddamn, door. We could have special doors that require those types of combinations, ones with enchantments on them or maybe more puzzle based ones we need to solve.

That would be fine. But please don't make the default way to open doors be to have a mage blast it and then a warrior hit it. That's just overly tedious to do and would feel like a trip up to the flow of the game.

Right, I was referring to the big "boss-level" doors. Minor doors can easily be smashed in. Or lockpicked.

 

Honestly, this was really all just a crazed rant

[efd731]

I like the ideas you've out forth, but have some suggestions.

#1How is door breaking bad but lock-breaking good,If the lock is part of the door how is that any different? I understanding breaking chests physically to get at their contents, but locks in general seems to be a stretch.

#2 as has been stated in a ton of threads previously, the gate in question was previously weakened, the warrior shown had top tier abilities, and it doesn't seem too lore breaking considering other warrior abilities in previous games of the series.

#3 you seem to describe warrior situations as class-breaking, but mages/rogues are exempt from that in your eyes? What prevents a cunning warrior from spotting a trap or picking a lock. I personally don't want warriors picking locks, but it's not game breaking. Simultaneously, a warrior breaking a gate is too much but a Mage doing it(with as yet unknown abilities) isn't?
Just seems like there are other things to take into account

Edit: started writing before anyone else had posted, most of what I said is irrelevant

[Swoopdogg]

I like the ideas you've out forth, but have some suggestions.

#1How is door breaking bad but lock-breaking good,If the lock is part of the door how is that any different? I understanding breaking chests physically to get at their contents, but locks in general seems to be a stretch.

#2 as has been stated in a ton of threads previously, the gate in question was previously weakened, the warrior shown had top tier abilities, and it doesn't seem too lore breaking considering other warrior abilities in previous games of the series.

#3 you seem to describe warrior situations as class-breaking, but mages/rogues are exempt from that in your eyes? What prevents a cunning warrior from spotting a trap or picking a lock. I personally don't want warriors picking locks, but it's not game breaking. Simultaneously, a warrior breaking a gate is too much but a Mage doing it(with as yet unknown abilities) isn't?
Just seems like there are other things to take into account

#1: To be clear, door breaking is not bad. I was referring to singlehandedly smashing a giant gate.

 

#2: I have not personally seen any of the threads you mention (or at least the posts that clarify the gate was already weakened). If that is the case, then no, it is not lore-breaking for a warrior to finish the job

 

#3: The point with the whole "class-breaking" situation is that it lowers the utility for other classes outside of combat. It isn't game-breaking, necessarily, but a balance does need to be struck. If a warrior can break doors and locks and disarm traps, what's the point of brining along a rogue?

 

To me, a mage breaking a giant gate makes more sense than one ordinary human being--who happens to be really strong and good at fighting-- breaking it. Doesn't matter how strong you are. It's still a giant gate

[Realmzmaster]

The problem with a mage casting an ice spell on the gate would require a very low temperature depending on the metal used and its composition. The spell would make the area too cold for the warrior to enter without taking damage or dying. Freezing the human body is not as difficult as making metal brittle since the body is 58 to 65 percent water.

 

So realism gets to take a back seat to gameplay and fun which is not a bad point as long as it is not taken to extremes and becomes really immersion breaking. 

 

Immersion breaking differs between gamers. Cass breaking down the gate does not bother me. Now there is the possibility that Cass could throw her shield (if round) ala Captain America and shatter the gate after being made brittle. No the shield would not return. She would have to go and pick it up. How many would say that could be immersion breaking?

[Swoopdogg]

The problem with a mage casting an ice spell on the gate would require a very low temperature depending on the metal used and its composition. The spell would make the area too cold for the warrior to enter without taking damage or dying. Freezing the human body is not as difficult as making metal brittle since the body is 58 to 65 percent water.

 

So realism gets to take a back seat to gameplay and fun which is not a bad point as long as it is not taken to extremes and becomes really immersion breaking. 

 

Immersion breaking differs between gamers. Cass breaking down the gate does not bother me. Now there is the possibility that Cass could throw her shield (if round) ala Captain America and shatter the gate after being made brittle. No the shield would not return. She would have to go and pick it up. How many would say that could be immersion breaking?

You bring up a good point, however, I doubt the "ice-breaking" method will be in the game. But beyond that, you bring up a good point about immersion-breaking, and how it's different for different players.

 

My OP applies primarily to what I believe to be immersion-breaking. Obviously this will be different for everyone.

 

I guess the message here is that Bioware should do whatever Bioware thinks is best as far as immersion goes.

 

Make no mistake, Cass breaking down a giant gate is extremely fun and awesome. But realistic?

 

Not sure what the dragons and demons will think about that one

[Realmzmaster]

I like the ideas you've out forth, but have some suggestions.

#1How is door breaking bad but lock-breaking good,If the lock is part of the door how is that any different? I understanding breaking chests physically to get at their contents, but locks in general seems to be a stretch.

#2 as has been stated in a ton of threads previously, the gate in question was previously weakened, the warrior shown had top tier abilities, and it doesn't seem too lore breaking considering other warrior abilities in previous games of the series.

#3 you seem to describe warrior situations as class-breaking, but mages/rogues are exempt from that in your eyes? What prevents a cunning warrior from spotting a trap or picking a lock. I personally don't want warriors picking locks, but it's not game breaking. Simultaneously, a warrior breaking a gate is too much but a Mage doing it(with as yet unknown abilities) isn't?
Just seems like there are other things to take into account

Edit: started writing before anyone else had posted, most of what I said is irrelevant

Nothing prevents a cunning warrior from spotting a trap or picking a lock as long as the warrior had the proper training. It is assumed (rightly or wrongly) that the rogue (by class definition)  has the necessary training and cunning to find the trap or pick the lock.

 

The Cunning attribute and class is a simplistic method of stating what skills each class has. A more fleshed out method would be to have lock picking and trapmaking skills/abilities available to all classes except maybe mage (mage would have a spell like find trap or melt lock). The warrior would have to forego points in other skills/abilities to select trapmaking or lockpicking

[metatheurgist]

In that case, maybe there might be some sort of explanation for why a warrior can smash a gate. Some kind of self-augmentation through lyrium, dragonblood, wyvernblood, giantblood, etc, etc? I'd be interested in the lore side of this.

You wouldn't even need to stretch to explain it. It's called magic armor and weapons. You can even throw in belts of strength.

[themageguy]

One of the assumptions people tend to run with is that in Thedas, only mages get access to supernatural abilities. This obviously isn't true.
 
Thedas is a setting where non-mages can gain supernatural abilities through: drinking darkspawn blood, drinking dragon blood, making a deal with a demon, ingesting blue/red lyrium, and joining with a spirit. That doesn't even cover edge cases like the Champion or Berzerker, who simply learn special techniques that may not give them superhuman powers, but are certainly far outside what a normal warrior might achieve.
 
Then there are things like being turned into a werewolf. Now even common people with no special training can rend others limb from limb.
 
Many people point to A Song of Ice and Fire as a good bar for low fantasy. Well, he has wizards and magic users who can give birth to shadows. Then we have people like Rickton who isn't a mage but is joining with some primordial plant spirit. Then we have Arya who learns to see through the eyes of a cat, and is becoming part of an assassins society where members can change their face at will.
 
Non-mages, supernatural abilities. And this is rather common in low magic fantasy.
 
Not to mention that in DA II there are hints that once all people in Thedas could do magic. It's possible that people still have a weak connection to whatever that power source is even if they can't cast spells.

Wait what's this about Rickton..?

[CybAnt1]

Traditionally, in many games, rogues are the ones who have the most utility outside of combat, and some of that is still in DA.

 

After all, in DA, they are the ones who open locks, and find and disarm traps. Also do stealth scouting. 

 

In 2E D & D, thieves had a lot of "utility skills". They could climb walls, listen at doors, find secret doors (DA doesn't have them), and pick pockets (well, there was stealing in DAO, but it vanished in DA2). 

 

But, even with only three classes and four party members, people complain about having to take along a rogue everywhere, so they want warriors and mages to be able to do it, too. D & D mages had utility spells like knock for opening locks, and yes, fighters could bash doors and bash open chests. Clerics (don't exist in DA, of course) had a spell to find traps - but the rogue still had to disarm them. Some of that may be coming in the yet unknown "Exploration Skills". 

 

I do agree with overall point that differences in class talents and capacities should show up in places other than combat; perhaps with the Exploration Skills, they will; we have to find out how those will work. 

[MattH]

I see no issue with Cassandra being able to break down that rusted old gate, in a world where magical weapons and enchanting are easily found.

 

I'd like to see mages have some outside class benefits. I heard something about them being able to create bridges? Perhaps they'd be able to blast through walls or sense magically hidden artifacts? 

[Johun]

Cassandra breaking the gate only really bothers me because she does it with a sword and shield. A bigass hammer I would've been on board with.

 

I feel that lockpicking should be the best method of opening locked containers, if smashing were implemented, it should have drawbacks. In KOTOR2, smashing open a locked box had a chance to break some of the items contained within. I'd be fine with this if the locked chests only contain random loot and not unique items.

[Nightdragon8]

my only issue is that they need to explain it,

 

if in DA:I the tears turns select people into OP Anime characters then thats fine,

 

Here is my real guess, in the demo the gate had a set amount of HP, so you can stand there and slash at it for 2 mins, use ablities and what not to break it down. However with the system they have maybe the shield slam does alot of damage, considering it may use something like the DA2 system of "Impact" where it has its own system, maybe the gate is weak to that kind of damage. 

 

So if they have force magic users they would be able to do the same thing with there spells as well.

 

However if they want to make it so 'heros' have more action movie moves then thats fine its there right to do that, I just want it explained in story about how these people can do the things they do.

[CannotCompute]

I like this suggestion in the OP: Warriors being able to break locks up to a certain level (depending on their Strength score). It reminds me of Baldur's Gate.

[Realmzmaster]

I like this suggestion in the OP: Warriors being able to break locks up to a certain level (depending on their Strength score). It reminds me of Baldur's Gate.

Would it depend on what type of lock? A lock built into a chest may be more difficult to break than a hanging lock.  Would slamming into a chest lock have a chance to break the contents if fragile?

 

Or will the type of lock and/ or contents not matter in regards to breaking the lock?