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Is Flemeth Dumat?


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#1
DrBlingzle

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Okay before we start I'd just like to say that I'm not considering this as fact, in fact I think, like most fan theories, its going to turn out to be a load of nug-crap. This is just a little theory I thought up which I thought was a bit interesting. The first couple of paragraphs are just some background stuff, if you want to get straight to the theory skip ahead to the fourth paragraph.

 

So lets go to the start. Dumat is/was the old god of silence apparently the most powerful of the old gods. Allegedly the maker imprisoned the old gods in the deep roads for convincing humans to worship them. Apparently Dumat destroyed the kingdom of Barindur in -1610 ancient, suggesting that if he was imprisoned it was after this. The next we here of Dumat was in -1595 ancient were the archon Thalsian said he had personally learnt blood magic from Dumat. From then on Dumat along with the other old gods were worshiped by the Imperium. It can be assumed that if the old gods were imprisoned by the maker or something else, it was at this point.

 

At around -395 ancient the magisters of Tevinter sacrificed hundreds of slaves and used 2 thirds of the lyrium in the empire to reach the "golden city" and take it for themselves. It is generally accepted that they failed, turned the golden city into the black city and returned as the darkspawn. They then reached Dumat, tainted him and turned him into the first archdemon. The first blight then began and only ended at around -203 ancient. Dumat was then slain at the battle of the silent fields by the first grey wardens. Of course all of the above is simply what we have been told and any or all of it could be incorrect.

 

According to Corypheus Dumat was the one who convinced the magisters to enter the golden city and that apparently it was already "black" when they got there. According to the world of Thedas there is a theory that instead of the darkspawn creating the first archdemon, Dumat actually created the first darkspawn and lead the darkspawn against Thedas. It also states that some consider (or considered) the golden city to be the realm of the old gods.

 

And so my completely flaw proof, and totally-not-relying-on-complete-speculation theory is this. Dumat convinced the magisters to head to the "golden city". It was already black because it was actually Dumat's realm. The magisters were then corrupted by the city becoming the darkspawn. Dumat did this to either build himself an army to conquer thedas, get the darkspawn to free him (if he was indeed imprisoned in the deep roads) or both.

 

Now the first "grey wardens" who "killed" Dumat might not of actually been proper wardens. The joining requires a mixture of darkspawn blood, lyrium, and archdemon. Accoring to Riordan (or at least i think it was him who said it) the first "wardens" only drank darkspawn blood. Now according to David Gaider you can become grey warden as long as you take in the corruption with enough potency to make the effect immediate. Normal darkspawn blood can do this as long as it has been magically treated but there is no mention of the first wardens doing this, why would they? They wouldn't know that its vital to have the taint to truly kill an archdemon (or just an old god if Dumat wasn't tainted because he was controlling the darkspawn out of free will). Nor do I think they would know how to magically treat darkspawn blood in the right way. This would mean that when Dumat was "killed" by the "wardens" instead of his soul joining with that of a grey wardens and perishing, it would go and seek another darkspawn. Meaning Dumat is still out there.

 

The second part of this theory is that Flemeth is Dumat. In witch hunt Morrigan states that Flemeth is no abomination or "truly human" (Flemeth being an old god would certainly explain this). Morrigan also states that Flemeth does not seek immortality (being an old god she is already, technically, "immortal"). Morrigan also implies that Flemeth is more closely connected to the blight than anyone suspected (Flemeth creating them would be a fairly big connection). And lastly Morrigan tells an orlesian warden to warn the wardens about Flemeth (if Flemeth is dumat you can imagine why she would be a bit of a threat).

 

Flemeth being an old god would certainly explain why she is so powerful and it would certainly explain how she can shapeshift into a dragon (although technically she would be shape shifting into a human). It would also explain how Flemeth knows of the dark ritual.

The reason she helps the warden in DAO could be because she doesn't want another old god taking the world instead of her. The dark ritual could be her attempt to make the OGB her thrall. She might of caused the veil tears in DAI in order to weaken Thedas before her attempt to claim it (although even if she is Dumat this might not be her goal).

 

Like I said at the start its impossible to be certain on any fan theory of this scale (yet), it would be like trying to complete a puzzle without all the pieces. So please take this theory for what it is: a little idea of mine which is probably going to be wrong. So please discuss what you think of this.

 

 


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#2
Divine Justinia V

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I can't... handle this post.

 

This is all of my dreams coming true.

 

Seriously though, I'd love it to be accurate but I doubt it. However, I do think she is some kind of Old God.


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#3
Master Warder Z_

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I'd point out this little tidbit first and foremost.

 

All the Old Gods and Archdemons to date have been Male.

 

._.


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#4
Divine Justinia V

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I'd point out this little tidbit first and foremost.

 

All the Old Gods and Archdemons to date have been Male.

 

._.

 

So? They can assume the body of whomever they desire. That means literally nothing.


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#5
DrBlingzle

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I'd point out this little tidbit first and foremost.

 

All the Old Gods and Archdemons to date have been Male.

 

._.

No reason why "he" couldn't shape-shift into a human woman.



#6
Hellion Rex

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I'd point out this little tidbit first and foremost.

 

All the Old Gods and Archdemons to date have been Male.

 

._.

And Flemeth is a shapeshifter...



#7
BabyFratelli

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This is my new favorite Flemeth theory. OP, you're my favorite. 



#8
Master Warder Z_

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So? They can assume the body of whomever they desire. That means literally nothing.

 

According to what?

 

The Pantheon if you even want to call that of the Seven were all Male High Dragons, and given they appear in that form as Archdemons merely corrupted and given when they go into the soul of another darkspawn to reform they are born again into the visage of a dragon.

 

I'd argue if the Old Gods are indeed the Archdemon, they are in fact Male High Dragons.



#9
DrBlingzle

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This is my new favorite Flemeth theory. OP, you're my favorite. 

Nice to hear ^_^ .



#10
Shadow Fox

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One small problem with this:

 

My Warden killed her and lived.

 

:P


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#11
Master Warder Z_

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One small problem with this:

 

My Warden killed her and lived.

 

:P

 

That too...I sort of forgot about the soul transfer at death, huh wouldn't that obliterate both their essences?

 

Mmm well there you go, stick a fork in this baby because this thread is done.

 

Well done Mercury.



#12
Divine Justinia V

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According to what?

According to be Flemeth being a shapeshifter, are you kidding me lol?

 

And the Warden didn't actually kill her.

So, no fork has been stuck in anything.


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#13
Lulupab

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She can be an old god but Dumat is male! :D

 

Seriously though its intriguing that she knew how to create an old god baby and thought morrigan to do it. She can be an old god herself, or "touched" by old gods.



#14
Mistic

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I like the idea of Flemeth being an Old God. However, if Dumat created the dakrspawn, and Flemeth is Dumat, why would she help the Wardens or devise the Dark Ritual?

 

If Flemeth is Dumat, my theory would be that he/she was indeed corrupted by the darkspawn. However, Dumat's "death" wasn't neither the typical Archdemon's final death or the also typical Archdemon's fake death (I suspect the Wardens would have noticed the difference; the only way they could know that killing an Archdemon in a normal way doesn't work has to be because they tried first). Instead, Dumat's soul was purified like what happened to Urthemiel's soul if we chose the Dark Ritual.

 

How? I don't know. But that would be a nice mystery to find out.

 

Now, Flemeth/Dumat, weakened but purified at last, is helping because she wants her peers purified and freed. Maybe she tried the same thing in every past Blight, but only worked (or not) in DA:O.


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#15
Divine Justinia V

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She can be an old god but Dumat is male! :D

 

It's very possible in this universe that he could've possessed a woman, Cory did with Janeka.


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#16
Master Warder Z_

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According to be Flemeth being a shapeshifter, are you kidding me lol?

 

And the Warden didn't actually kill her.

So, no fork has been stuck in anything.

 

So? I don't see the Correlation between being able to access a shapeshifting tree we have yet to see and being considered an Imperium deity. It could be the result of anything from Abominations mixing with the blood of the dragon to some yet unknown Arcane path that was all but lost to the world back when she was supposedly still human.

 

Also

 

Fragmenting you're essence into a veritable Holcrux doesn't stop whatever is there magically not being absorbed. When a Gray Warden strikes the final blow, why doesn't the Essence that is contained within Absorbed if she was supposedly the remnant of an Archdemon? I don't believe Riorodan was incorrect when he said the transfer was immediate. Given that's exactly what occurs.

 

Even if she had split her soul apart, what was there would have been taken, and even she admits it was only a fragment Hawke carried with them, overall to me it doesn't add up.

 

Ancient Abomination using unknown school of magic seems more likely to me.



#17
pallascedar

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One small problem with this:

My Warden killed her and lived.

:P

I think this theory is way far fetched, but this isn't it's weakspot. Flemeth had given Hawke an amulet remember? This could very well serve as the vessel for her soul.

I also don't think it proves anything to say that the old gods are male. Unless the ancient men of Tevinter were more perverted than I thought they wouldn't have any real way of knowing the actual sex of their gods.

#18
EmissaryofLies

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I've always wondered what endgame Flemeth is playing at.

 

It is quite clear that's she's been moving her pieces across the board, what is her checkmate?



#19
Shadow Fox

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According to be Flemeth being a shapeshifter, are you kidding me lol?

 

And the Warden didn't actually kill her.

So, no fork has been stuck in anything.

If she's an Archdemon her soul would have entered the closest tainted being when she died,*which she did until Hawke unknowingly saved her life* which is the Warden or Alistair which would have killed them both. 



#20
Lulupab

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It's very possible in this universe that he could've possessed a woman, Cory did with Janeka.

 

I've always had a theory Flemeth was somehow connected to old gods so what you said is also possible but I think she could be the last remaining old god who escaped the taint and did not become corrupted.


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#21
Master Warder Z_

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I also don't think it proves anything to say that the old gods are male. Unless the ancient men of Tevinter were more perverted than I thought they wouldn't have any real way of knowing the actual sex their gods.

 

._. You don't think someone you know...checked once they were slain but before they went kablooy?

 

Its just odd the lore would have this notion of them being male you know, with out some one checking and finding out.

 

Just saying...


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#22
Divine Justinia V

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So? I don't see the Correlation between being able to access a shapeshifting tree we have yet to see and being considered an Imperium deity. It could be the result of anything from Abominations mixing with the blood of the dragon to some yet unknown Arcane path that was all but lost to the world back when she was supposedly still human.

 

Flemeth has had different bodies, this is more than just a "shapeshifting tree" are you kidding me right now?

 

 

If she's an Archdemon her soul would have entered the closest tainted being when she died,*which she did until Hawke unknowingly saved her life* which is the Warden or Alistair which would have killed them both. 

 

I don't think she was/is an Archdemon, I don't think she was an Old God that's been possessed period. All I'm saying is that it's very plausible that she could be an Old God.

 

 

I've always had a theory Flemeth was somehow connected to old gods so what you said is also possible but I think she could be the last remaining old god who escaped the taint and did not become corrupted.

 

This. Thank you lol.


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#23
DrBlingzle

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Ancient Abomination using unknown school of magic seems more likely to me.

One of the few things I actually trust Morrigan on is what she says at the end of witch hunt

 

She is no blood mage, no abomination. She is not truly even human!

 But I suppose she could be mistaken.


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#24
Shadow Fox

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Flemeth has had different bodies, this is more than just a "shapeshifting tree" are you kidding me right now?

 

 

 

I don't think she was/is an Archdemon, I don't think she was an Old God that's been possessed period. All I'm saying is that it's very plausible that she could be an Old God.

 

 

 

This. Thank you lol.

Dumat is an Archdemon however hence she can't be him.



#25
Master Warder Z_

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Flemeth has had different bodies, this is more than just a "shapeshifting tree" are you kidding me right now?

 

Yes Demons often possess hosts, the lore has already given a viable line of logic of the reasoning of this, Bodies still decay and age and thus need replacing.

 

To me that doesn't confirm anything beyond Flemeth just you know, being an abomination that has lingered long enough to actually need a new corpse to posses.