Aller au contenu

Photo

Open skills and abilities to all classes


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
157 réponses à ce sujet

#76
Realmzmaster

Realmzmaster
  • Members
  • 5 510 messages

Well, then what does the warrior do? he takes the offensive to make sure, mages can cast their spells without the risk of being attacked.  Do mages go into close combat? Originally no.

What do rougues? They try to get in the back of their enemies to deal massive damage.

Can mages use Armor? No. Can rougues use armor? Only light.

That's the role of their classes and that's how it works out in battle.  Yeah, sure, there are some veriationsa and exceptions but basically this is the way any tactictal Party-RPG works.

I don't understand what you mean by open skill system. Could you PLEASE explain?  I olny know: Either it's open for everyone or it's limited according to classes.

 

Open skill tree means that the character is free to pick from any available tree if they meet the minimum qualifications for that skill. So if a warrior has cunning of 30 (or what ever the requirement) or more the warrior can pick skills from the rogue skill trees. If the rogue has strength of 30 (or what every the requirement) the rogue can pick from the warrior trees, but they both do so at the cost of not picking from their own trees.

 

So if the warrior wants to learn to backstab he/she can. It is a way of putting dual or multi class into the system like a warrior/rogue or mage/warrior or mage/rogue. The basic limitation is that a warrior picking from the mage tree get classified as a mage. Because per the lore all mages have to be born a mage.



#77
JCFR

JCFR
  • Members
  • 286 messages

Open skill tree means that the character is free to pick from any available tree if they meet the minimum qualifications for that skill. So if a warrior has cunning of 30 (or what ever the requirement) or more the warrior can pick skills from the rogue skill trees. If the rogue has strength of 30 (or what every the requirement) the rogue can pick from the warrior trees, but they both do so at the cost of not picking from their own trees.

 

So if the warrior wants to learn to backstab he/she can. It is a way of putting dual or multi class into the system like a warrior/rogue or mage/warrior or mage/rogue. The basic limitation is that a warrior picking from the mage tree get classified as a mage. Because per the lore all mages have to be born a mage.

Sounds like a waste of talent-points to me. I think the classic D&D.System is more logic. A mage's role is to cast spells therefore he needs much intelligence and can't wear any armor, since that would be to restrictive for his complex gestures. giving him strenght  just so that he can swing heavy swords is like giving a giant a toothpick as a weapon. Useless. 

And why even care giving him Armor and swords, since a warrior serves always better in close combat.

 

I just fail to see the advantage in that. Sorry.



#78
Realmzmaster

Realmzmaster
  • Members
  • 5 510 messages

Sounds like a waste of talent-points to me. I think the classic D&D.System is more logic. A mage's role is to cast spells therefore he needs much intelligence and can't wear any armor, since that would be to restrictive for his complex gestures. giving him strenght  just so that he can swing heavy swords is like giving a giant a toothpick as a weapon. Useless. 

And why even care giving him Armor and swords, since a warrior serves always better in close combat.

 

I just fail to see the advantage in that. Sorry.

 

You fail to see the advantage in dual and multi-classing which is in D & D including the fourth edition. The fourth edition allows the character to take a multiclass feat which in effect it the same point I an talking about..



#79
Kali073

Kali073
  • Members
  • 276 messages

No, I don't want the DA series to become multi-classed. Not in Inquisition and not in games after that. I usually stick pretty close to a 'class' (of sorts) even in games where the character isn't restricted to one like Skyrim so it's just a personal preference of mine. You argue that it could be interesting/fun/etc to have multi-class but I'd rather they evolve the classes they already have and make some great specialisations instead. I wouldn't be opposed to letting rogues wield swords like they did in DAO, I suppose, but a rogue running around with a large two-handed weapon... yeah I don't like it.



#80
Realmzmaster

Realmzmaster
  • Members
  • 5 510 messages

In D & D the character could multi-class into a barbarian/wizard/thief or a lot of other different combinations. Other games cam up with Battlemages who could wear light armor The battlemage could wield a sword, but not a shield.



#81
BlueMagitek

BlueMagitek
  • Members
  • 3 583 messages

That's true.  However, magic doesn't work the same way it does in D&D that it does in Thedas.  Anyone with a decent int score could potentially be a wizard because it comes from long periods of studying.  Or, failing that, you could become a Cleric and be infused with divine magic, something that also hasn't really in Thedas.

 

And a Barbarian/Rogue/Wizard is a terrible multiclass and you should feel bad for bringing it up; the stats that you need for each class are way too much (Strength/Con for Barbarian, Dex/Cha for Rogue, Int for Wizard), it's worse than a Monk's problems.  If you want a Caster/Warrior, a Cleric/Ordained Champion is a much better option.



#82
JCFR

JCFR
  • Members
  • 286 messages

You fail to see the advantage in dual and multi-classing which is in D & D including the fourth edition. The fourth edition allows the character to take a multiclass feat which in effect it the same point I an talking about..

Well the mulit-class system had it's own weakpoints. XP was sepereated between the different classes (like fighter and mage)  resulting in slower levelup. An only-mage-clas is a better spellcaster with more magic spells and an only-wrrior-class is a better fighter with higher resistances.

 

A multiclass user is a bit of a bad allrounder... in nothing the best. i would prefer to see new, more innovative classes.



#83
Realmzmaster

Realmzmaster
  • Members
  • 5 510 messages

Well the mulit-class system had it's own weakpoints. XP was sepereated between the different classes (like fighter and mage)  resulting in slower levelup. An only-mage-clas is a better spellcaster with more magic spells and an only-wrrior-class is a better fighter with higher resistances.

 

A multiclass user is a bit of a bad allrounder... in nothing the best. i would prefer to see new, more innovative classes.

 

Which is fine, but what if gamer wants to roleplay a character that is both? That where dual classing or multiclassing is a viable alternative.



#84
Realmzmaster

Realmzmaster
  • Members
  • 5 510 messages

That's true.  However, magic doesn't work the same way it does in D&D that it does in Thedas.  Anyone with a decent int score could potentially be a wizard because it comes from long periods of studying.  Or, failing that, you could become a Cleric and be infused with divine magic, something that also hasn't really in Thedas.

 

And a Barbarian/Rogue/Wizard is a terrible multiclass and you should feel bad for bringing it up; the stats that you need for each class are way too much (Strength/Con for Barbarian, Dex/Cha for Rogue, Int for Wizard), it's worse than a Monk's problems.  If you want a Caster/Warrior, a Cleric/Ordained Champion is a much better option.

 

I feel bad about nothing. It is an example. If a gamer wants to try to create such a character I will not be the one to stop them. I also stated that if you select from the magic tree in a DA game that automatically means that the base class is mage since mages are born.



#85
JCFR

JCFR
  • Members
  • 286 messages

Which is fine, but what if gamer wants to roleplay a character that is both? That where dual classing or multiclassing is a viable alternative.

Well if that's your opinion, then ok.

To me it's neither fish nor flesh. I would prefer some inovation in the class system than just the ability to create a sword-wielding Mage Like a mage that has no offensive spells and has torely solely on summoned minions which he can buff. Just somethint that plays different.



#86
metatheurgist

metatheurgist
  • Members
  • 2 429 messages

A mage's role is to cast spells therefore he needs much intelligence and can't wear any armor, since that would be to restrictive for his complex gestures. giving him strenght  just so that he can swing heavy swords is like giving a giant a toothpick as a weapon. Useless. 

And why even care giving him Armor and swords, since a warrior serves always better in close combat.
 
I just fail to see the advantage in that. Sorry.


In D&D there are dead magic zones, wild magic zones, anti-magic fields, creatures with immunity to magic, creatures with spell resistance so high that they might as well be immune to magic. In those circumstances a mage's options are to twiddle their thumbs or become the potion boy. Some players are fine with that, other players want to have alternatives when they get caught in those situations. Some others like mages that don't have to rely on spells for all their defences or all their offensive options. Options are good.
  • Realmzmaster aime ceci

#87
Realmzmaster

Realmzmaster
  • Members
  • 5 510 messages

DAI is a role playing game. I would like the option to roleplay a class that is not just warrior, mage and rogue. If I roleplay a mage/rogue it would be interesting to see how that would play out. As Metatheurgist stated "Options are good."



#88
JCFR

JCFR
  • Members
  • 286 messages

In D&D there are dead magic zones, wild magic zones, anti-magic fields, creatures with immunity to magic, creatures with spell resistance so high that they might as well be immune to magic. In those circumstances a mage's options are to twiddle their thumbs or become the potion boy. Some players are fine with that, other players want to have alternatives when they get caught in those situations. Some others like mages that don't have to rely on spells for all their defences or all their offensive options. Options are good.

Yes, but.... geez. how do i put it...

I think it`s kinda sad and lazy to play a class, that`s just a combination of  two known standards without any individuality. Let's say a classic D&D Fighter/mage... as such he can use the same weapons and armors as a fighter and cast the same spells as a mage but nothing else. Nothing that divides him from the originals beside of not being as good in one aspect.

No limitations or specialisations like...i don't know... for Example only being able to cast spells on your own equipment - enchanting them - an maybe on his close surroundings... and give him some spells, just for his class. this would make  and play him unique and not just a lazy wannabe.



#89
Realmzmaster

Realmzmaster
  • Members
  • 5 510 messages

Yes, but.... geez. how do i put it...

I think it`s kinda sad and lazy to play a class, that`s just a combination of  two known standards without any individuality. Let's say a classic D&D Fighter/mage... as such he can use the same weapons and armors as a fighter and cast the same spells as a mage but nothing else. Nothing that divides him from the originals beside of not being as good in one aspect.

No limitations or specialisations like...i don't know... for Example only being able to cast spells on your own equipment - enchanting them - an maybe on his close surroundings... and give him some spells, just for his class. this would make  and play him unique and not just a lazy wannabe.

 

All classes are based on the three basic classes of warrior, rogue and mage. All other classes are variations. For example one game had the Bishop[ which is a combination of the which was a combination of priest and mage. But DA does not have a priestly class so that is not possible. The mage is the healer in DA.

One game Wizardry 8  has the gadgeteer class. The character would make weapons ans armor out mundane items. An Alchemist class could be possible. The Alchemist would rely on potions and powders to fight.



#90
Guest_JujuSamedi_*

Guest_JujuSamedi_*
  • Guests

The issue that I see with this system could be the arrangement of the modules. With a game like shadowrun, it does not have classes , it has templates. Bioware's dragon age architecture gives the impression that their modules are seperated into Warrior,Rougue and Mage. During the first dragon age, this was not apparent cause skills where available to everyone, during the second dragon age skills where taking out entirely, but other areas showed more separation of modules by dialogue,armor,etc. Basically dragon age origins had more overlapping system items when compared to Dragon age 2. In very simplified structures it would look something like this for dragon age origins.

 

AnalysisOfTwoTypesOfClassSystemsInRelati

 

Having abilities and skills available to everyone would invalidate the need for such a structure. Warrior,Mage and rogue would just be templates which allocate starting abilities and let the player build how he wants. This would mean bioware would have to switch to from class reactivity to ability attribute reactivity. Example, can only use mage options if you have "x in magic."

 

Not to mention the mage abilities are also embedded in the lore.

 

Good idea, I just feel like it would need some restructure in their system for it to work.

 

ps: I am taking an educated guess on the structure, I obviously have not seen it and have no insight on how it is constructed but if I had to do it I would do it like this. 



#91
metatheurgist

metatheurgist
  • Members
  • 2 429 messages

I think it`s kinda sad and lazy to play a class, that`s just a combination of  two known standards without any individuality. Let's say a classic D&D Fighter/mage... as such he can use the same weapons and armors as a fighter and cast the same spells as a mage but nothing else. Nothing that divides him from the originals beside of not being as good in one aspect.
No limitations or specialisations like...i don't know... for Example only being able to cast spells on your own equipment - enchanting them - an maybe on his close surroundings... and give him some spells, just for his class. this would make  and play him unique and not just a lazy wannabe.


3.x DnD is flexible enough for you to do that, because it gives the player choice. You can multiclass Fighter/Wizard go on to become a Eldritch Knight. You can choose only spells that buff weapons and armor and call yourself a "Battle Mage". You could even limit it to only force spells or fire spells and call yourself an "Elemental Warrior". You can't do that in something like DAO and 4th edition because you are straight jacketed by the classes the designers say you can have. This is why openness and options are good, the player can create the class he wants to play. The more well thought out and diverse and plentiful the options are, the more unique classes a creative player can come up with.

#92
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 180 messages

Here is my take on things. In this post, I will first explain why I prefer classless systems as a general rule and why all arguments against it that are not exclusively about ease of use are null and void. Since I don't see a revolution coming in the way DA does things, I will then make a few suggestions about how the existing system can be tweaked to allow for more character diversity.

 

Part I: the three basic arguments for a classless system

 

1. There shouldn't be any restrictions on which skills characters can combine which are not based on the natural laws (rather than the culture) of the game world.

 

The thing is, classes are stereotypes. They're based on lumping skills together that we traditionally see connected because of our cultural history. Some game worlds make their own classes based on their own cultural predispositions, and that's a bit better but there is still no in-world reason at all why individual characters have to adhere to class restrictions if they're just based on cultural predispositions. 

 

An example: If I want, say, a warrior who can cast one or two spells to boost his combat abilities, I can construct a history for him in the DA universe that does not break any lore. Maybe he's a Circle refugee who didn't want the "soft" life of a mage, fled and didn't care to continue his magical training, learning swordwork instead. As long as there isn't any natural law that prevents him from combining certain skills (possible example: being a blood mage precludes becoming a spirit healer and vice versa), any skill should be open for him to learn. Maybe he'll never become as good at a skill learned late as a specialist, but there can be several reasons why I'd want it nonetheless. Maybe I'm content with opening just 75% of all locks instead of all of them, or with casting the one or two spells that give me an edge in physical combat rather than changing my style of combat completely. 

 

2. Anything that can be done with a class system can also be done with a classless system, but not vice versa.

 

Example: In a classless systems, there can be traits which can only be selected at character creation because of underlying laws of the game world. "Mageborn" would be one such trait. I make a distinction between "mageborn" and "mage" because even if you're mageborn, there is no law of the game world that says you actually need to get mage training and "become a mage" eventually. If your game world has certain rules about magic, a classless system can easily be adapted to incorporate them.

There can also be preset trait combinations, usually called "templates" (as suggested in the above post by Baron Samedi), which recreate the skill combinations that make up the classes in a class-based system. Those make character selection fast and easy for new players, those satisfied with the stereotypes or those who don't want to bother with the details of a complicated character generation system. As an added advantage, the restrictions are not carried over (unless a natural law of the fictional world says so) so these templates can still be tweaked as the player desires.

However, if you start with a class system, any character concept that softens the boundaries between classes, regardless of in-world plausibility, needs either an extra class or rules of exception, which makes the rules cumbersome and undermines the class distinction the system was created to sustain in the first place.

 

3. Classless systems can actually create more distinctive characters, it's just the responsibility of the player to do so.

 

Consider the above example of a character who breaks the mould. Classes are stereotypes, and as a rule, characters become more interesting if they break stereotypes. The disctinction of a class system is that it forces players to adhere to stereotypes, it forces a particular kind of distinctiveness while preventing other kinds.

About the argument that you'll always create "the" most powerful character based on "the" skills most powerful in the context of the story told and its gameplay elements:

Balancing in classless systems is done based on a points system. Those are indeed somewhat harder to balance than class-based systems but they do actually balance things (consider the way Kingdoms of Amalur did this). That you can combine the most powerful skills is, most of the time, not true, as having, say, sword and magic proficiency means you're not as good in either as a specialist. That this kind of balancing works you can see in the Fallout games, which haven't been accused of having a uber-powerful character template though certain traits have been accused of being overpowered (that always happens).

More to the point, though is this: if such an "abuse" of the system is really possible (I would deny this is an abuse since the uber-powerful template is just as legitimate as others), it's up to you as the player to avoid using it, and the system gives you the tools to avoid it. It's all your resposibility because class systems are about restrictions but classless systems about options. I say we players don't need our hands held in order to create interesting and diverse characters, because most of us actually want those.

 

Part II: What can be done with the existing system

 

DAO points the way. Make more character abilities available cross-class unless Thedas' natural laws prevent it. To balance that, those abilities can be attribute-based (like lockpicking already is) so that those classes which have an ability's base attribute as a primary attribute benefit more from acquiring the ability than others. Example: if lockpicking is generally available and based on Cunning, rogues will still tend to be better at it since they tend to develop Cunning more than the other classes. It may cost a mage or warrior more to develop a useful lockpicking skill, but if that's part of a player's character concept and they're willing to sacrifice other benefits for it the system should not aim to prevent it. The resulting character becomes more distinctive for it, and isn't that what we all want?

 

Also, do *not* add classes. More classes means more enforced stereotyping, and more restrictions.

 

And remove *all* weapon restrictions except non-mages being unable to shoot magic projectiles with a staff. Instead, give warriors skills that make them better at certain things so that while, say 2h-weapons-skill tends to be more useful to a warrior, others aren't prevented completely from using such weapons. Treat staffs as a 2h-weapon and give mages special abilities based on a staff's magical attributes rather than their physical ones, which means warriors could bludgeon harder with a staff while mages, for instance, could add elemental effects to their melee hits. In other words, make class distinctiveness a part of the characters rather than part of the equipment.


  • abnocte aime ceci

#93
Bob from Accounting

Bob from Accounting
  • Members
  • 1 527 messages

I'd be very careful about calling classes a result of 'cultural predispositions' and 'stereotyping.' That seems silly.

 

A warrior being strong and agile has nothing to do with 'stereotyping.' It's pure necessity. A weak and clumsy person isn't going to be effective as a warrior in the first place. That goes for any culture.

 

Likewise, a scholar being wise is just plain common sense. 'Culture' doesn't factor into it. There's no culture where men of learning and wisdom are stereotyped as being stupid. That just makes no sense.



#94
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 180 messages

I'd be very careful about calling classes a result of 'cultural predispositions' and 'stereotyping.' That seems silly.

 

A warrior being strong and agile has nothing to do with 'stereotyping.' It's pure necessity. A weak and clumsy person isn't going to be effective as a warrior in the first place. That goes for any culture.

 

Likewise, a scholar being wise is just plain common sense. 'Culture' doesn't factor into it. There's no culture where men of learning and wisdom are stereotyped as being stupid. That just makes no sense.

Your example is not about classes but about the connection between skills and attributes. Classless systems usually have those, and more strictly enforced than class-based systems actually.

 

The stereotyping comes into play when the agile and strong warrior is arbitrarily prevented from learning, say, stealth (which requires agility and perception, things a warrior also needs) because of rules. The stereotype is about the warrior being less smart, less perceptive as a rule than the rogue, about being more of a brute.

 

The mage stereotype is about a mage being bookish and non-physical. Ask Morrigan about that. IMO lore-wise she should be as athletic as some warriors, given her background. Weapon skills that do not depend on brute force should be open to her.



#95
Bob from Accounting

Bob from Accounting
  • Members
  • 1 527 messages

I doubt that. I think that's just a necessity of class balance. There's not much point of having classes in the first place if everyone can learn every skill equally.

 

Besides, the 'stereotype' seems to more of a product of the simple fact that people who are good at everything are rare simply because being good at everything is hard. So yes, I tend to assume football players are not exactly geniuses and computer science geeks are not the most muscular people. I doubt that has much to do with culture so much as it's far more likely to find people good at one thing than good at everything.



#96
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 180 messages

Your argument is: we need class restrictions because otherwise there would be no point in having classes? Well, my argument is that there is indeed no point in having classes, because most skill restrictions are arbitrary and based on stereotypes, while in real life things are much more fluid. For instance, yes, there might be a statistical (!) tendency for a person with a very "physical" job to be less educated (which does *not* mean less smart btw.), but there is no reason why this should apply to every single character we make, and there is actually every reason to want to break the mould if you want an interesting and distinctive character. 

 

A few examples:

*A rogue specialized in stealing magical artifacts might be more educated in magical lore than your average mage.

*A warrior with a job as a nobleman's bodyguard would profit from being diplomatic and able to detect lies, and would absolutely need to learn the finer points of etiquette. A good general education would also be extremely useful.

*A mage with a "wilderness apostate" background might actually be unable to read while being more physically resilient than the warrior of the above example.

 

So, why again does the class system prevent me from creating these interesting character types?



#97
Bob from Accounting

Bob from Accounting
  • Members
  • 1 527 messages

I'm not arguing for classes at all. I'm just telling you where I'm guessing they come from.

 

I fully support characters who are good at everything. Narratively, anyway. Sometimes that has to be fudged in gameplay to not make everyone else useless.



#98
Innsmouth Dweller

Innsmouth Dweller
  • Members
  • 1 208 messages

I actually like the classless aka "training by using" system in games (TES mostly). it gives more flexibility, lets player to adapt to the game more than choosing a class at the very begining. i wanted to play a mage, but hey - lockpicking and stealth are awesome, so i'm gonna be cool thief with wintergrasp/cone of cold.

why it worked so well and you couldn't be master of thieves and archmage at once? because of enemies scalling and i do hope it's somehow done in DA:I (as much as i hate bandits in the caves)

 

simple class flag check is as easy as checking which skills/tallents/attributes are developed based on some fixed classification - primal spells are clearly mage tree (and so on). if PC uses mostly mage abilities - he/she is a mage.

 

there is one obstacle tho - in DA:O classes defined the storyline so choosing them at the begining of the story was crucial (at least first few hours), in DA2 was the same (Carver or Bethany), i suppose they won't break with tradition ;)



#99
JCFR

JCFR
  • Members
  • 286 messages

All classes are based on the three basic classes of warrior, rogue and mage. All other classes are variations. For example one game had the Bishop[ which is a combination of the which was a combination of priest and mage. But DA does not have a priestly class so that is not possible. The mage is the healer in DA.

One game Wizardry 8  has the gadgeteer class. The character would make weapons ans armor out mundane items. An Alchemist class could be possible. The Alchemist would rely on potions and powders to fight.

And that is - in my opinion - kinda sad and lazy, this strict sticking to those 3 standart non-original classes namely mage, fighter and rogue. I mean, show me just one RPG without those! I don't want to say i dislike them but geez, be a little creative developers and add something new and fresh.

 

And once again about the open-skill-thing: If tjat's your kind of thing, then ok, skil your MAge until he`s a sword-wielding, armor-wearing badass that has no need for a party (as many did with the arcane warrior) but never forget "open skll"means also it's VERY easy it is to Misskill- as it was in Diablo2 for example.



#100
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 180 messages

@Skuld:

Skill advancement by in-game use makes you play for the numbers, such as using weaker weapons in order to get more skill-advancing hits in against a given number of enemies, sacrificing role-playing for gaming the system. That's not good. I prefer to not be forced to simulate my training while I'm advancing in the story. General skill availability with fixed points per level, restricted only by attributes and some lore with regard to magic, that works just as well for the same purpose - more flexibility - while enforcing balance much better.