600 réponses à ce sujet

[Helios969]

Reading though the many discussion regarding the events of DA2 and the very contentious nature of the Chantry-Templar oversight of The Circle, I have been wondering if there exists any middle ground...compromise to the situation?  Players largely either side wholly with the mages or advocate the status-quo.  DA2 lays out the complicated nature to the problem: mages living in a state of fear under the abuses of their Templar jailers and the consequences of mages allowed to self-govern as laid out in Tevinter.

 

People have laid out arguments ad nauseam citing in-game content as to why the mages should be free or why the status-quo is a necessary evil, but I am curious whether people have any thoughts on a long term (or even permanent) solution to this problem that doesn't involve wholesale slaughter of one side or the other.  Honestly, I am struggling to envision any scenario that satisfies both extremes.  Destroy the source that gives mages their power to set them free?  Thoughts?

[Lulupab]

An autonomous circle is a not wholly taking mage's side. Its giving more freedom to mage inside their circles while having restrictions. The old and Templar's system didn't work, now we should try this one to see how it works.

[Aimi]

in b4 complaints that you have characterized "the status quo" as "the wholesale slaughter of mages"

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There's actually many people here who look for compromises, but we tend to get drowned out by the more solid supporters of either side. 

[Grieving Natashina]

There's actually many people here who look for compromises, but we tend to get drowned out by the more solid supporters of either side. 

Yeah, this.  We exist and we do try to start threads.  Generally, they are overlooked and just fade away.  Many us of hang out in the Uneven Presentation thread, and compromises do come up.  The more moderate crowd also likes to chuckle a bit at both extremists in this debate.  There is this odd little community that is being built in there too and many of us in the middle started to hang out because of it.  Also, I will say that most pro-mage and pro-Templar supporters have come up with various solutions that aren't just "kill them all."  There is a few exceptions, but there is a lot of talk on what to do next as well.

 

The pro-Compromise posters need a solid forum group to hang out in.  I have no idea how to start one though.

[Helios969]

Unlike many people I do not really have too many complaints to DA2, but I think third more neutral option would have been nice.  "I stand with Aveline and the city guard to protect the people."

 

Saranta...^ Wholesale slaughter meaning forced to choose one side or the other "to win."  I am looking for a middle ground that makes everyone happy...or at least doesn't leave one side or the other miserable.

[Helios969]

Natashina: That would be nice to have a place for moderates to hang and chat.  I figured I give this thread a shot since it constantly comes up in my thoughts.  I know it may just fade away.  Still maybe some of the posters with more extreme views can offer something insightful in way of a solution.

 

Lulupab:  Could you clarify how such a system would work?  I think I understand what you're going for.  What are the checks and balances?

[Grieving Natashina]

I'd check out the Uneven thread too if this one fades away.  Yes, it's long but there is some great answers from all across the board on this issue.  

[Aimi]

Unlike many people I do not really have too many complaints to DA2, but I think third more neutral option would have been nice.  "I stand with Aveline and the city guard to protect the people."

 

Saranta...^ Wholesale slaughter meaning forced to choose one side or the other "to win."  I am looking for a middle ground that makes everyone happy...or at least doesn't leave one side or the other miserable.

 

Truism: the mark of a good compromise is that it makes everybody miserable.

 

I'd be one of the first people to point out all of the flaws with the way the Circles worked initially, and have consistently pointed out the flaws with whatever the hell the 'pro-mage' endgame is (one key problem is that it doesn't seem like there is much of a pro-mage endgame).

 

But moderation and compromise in and of themselves are not necessarily ideal states. If one person says that it's a good idea to, say, kill off all the dogs in the world, and another person says that it is not, the midpoint of those two proposals is not acceptable either. We wouldn't say "oh let's only slaughter half the doggies! that's a good compromise!" Compromise is often difficult to craft in an acceptable fashion, and even a well-crafted compromise stands an excellent chance of failing.

 

Truth be told, I don't have any ideas about how to solve the problem moving forward. All I'm really any good for is pointing out all the flaws with other people's proposals. I'm not on any of the spectra of opinions: pro-mage, pro-templar, or pro-compromise. I'm especially wary of staking out some sort of position when I don't know anything about the context we'll get served up in DA:I.

 

On a side note, I'm getting the sense that my current username is awkward, because nobody seems to have a good idea about how to abbreviate it and 'Sarantapechaina' is a pain in the butt to type out.

 

The name is a reference to the Roman Empress Eirene. Sarantapechaina - male form Sarantapechos - was her family name; she was minor Athenian nobility before marrying Emperor Leōn IV. She had a kid, then her husband died, then she was her kid's regent, then she got tired of her kid acting out and had him blinded and exiled in order to rule on her own for five years before a camarilla of state bureaucrats and military officers forced her into her own internal exile. Eirene was absolutely ruthless, an extremely capable politician, and a ruler who initiated key reforms that continued to strengthen the Empire long after her death. She was also one of the few medieval rulers who had a direct impact on most of her subjects' lives through her close management of the Iconoclast controversy and related theological and cultural disputes. I think she was a terrible person - she had her own son blinded just so she could take power for herself! - but an incredibly interesting historical figure.

 

I guess you could abbreviate it to Eirene? Or I could change it to something easier, like "Aimi Haraguni".

[EmissaryofLies]

Compromise is nice. It's very pretty, like a ribbon in a girl's hair.

Curious as to how someone would sell such an idea to a Fiona or a Lambert however.

[Grieving Natashina]

Compromise is nice. It's very pretty, like a ribbon in a girl's hair.

Curious as to how someone would sell such an idea to a Fiona or a Lambert however.

Selling it to the extremists is always the catch, isn't it?  

[Zazzerka]

Curious as to how someone would sell such an idea to a Fiona or a Lambert however.

 

If they're all that's standing in the way of peace, it'd be a small price to pay to have them removed.

 

Like that time we voted out that South Australian politician so we could finally have an 18+ rating for video games.

[Lulupab]

Compromise is nice. It's very pretty, like a ribbon in a girl's hair.

Curious as to how someone would sell such an idea to a Fiona or a Lambert however.

 

Well Fiona wants an Autonomous circle. Her cause is not extreme even if her methods seems like they are.

 

Natashina: That would be nice to have a place for moderates to hang and chat.  I figured I give this thread a shot since it constantly comes up in my thoughts.  I know it may just fade away.  Still maybe some of the posters with more extreme views can offer something insightful in way of a solution.

 

Lulupab:  Could you clarify how such a system would work?  I think I understand what you're going for.  What are the checks and balances?

 

Well I'm not writing it but its about mages governing themselves and Templars can only interfere in their lives if there is an emergency or when for example first enchanter asks them to.

[Enchant_m3nt]

Although I am usually pro-mage I do think a compromise will be necessary for peace. I've wanted Templars to go back to their old ways since Asunder. Evangeline was really my ideal Templar. Protecting the mages from themselves, protecting them from other people and protecting other people from them.

I have always hated the idea of children being ripped away from their parents, its cruel and barbaric. The children obviously need to be taught to control their magic but I would like to see a compromise where the Circle is seen as a school, a place for learning, the children would attend the Circle throughout the week, then return to their families at the weekends. The parents would need to live within close proximity to the Circle for this to be possible. Of course this assumes they even want to see their children as many people fear mages or are disgusted by magic. Hopefully these opinions change as mages are integrated into society more with the rest of my compromise..

These mages would still he watched over by Templars and they would still complete their Harrowings. However once they are Harrowed they get rewarded. The current system means even the best, most loyal, pro-circle mages are still treated like any other mage. With the odd exception here and there. I would allow Harrowed mages to leave the Circle, for the first few years they would be under Templar supervision. One Templar might be tasked to watch over one or two mages. These mages would be allowed to work, they could be healers, builders, enchanters etc. If they help communities around Thedas people will start to see mages as helpful and hopefully fear them less.

They would slowly be weaned off the Templar supervision. But would have regular check-ups. If a templar suspects a mage is using blood magic they can take them straight back to the Circle to be dealt with. Most of the time blood magic is used because they have no other option. I'm hoping this system where mages are more free reduces the frequency of which they turn to such magic.

Of course there will always be one or two mages that just want power and do use those magics. With this compromise you'd just have to hope the Templars realised it in time. Which is not so different to the Circle but there at least the situation is contained.

I would also make sure the templars are not abusing their position by making them equal to mages, they would no longer be their jailers, they would be working together as comrades to improve Thedas and to work together to keep one another safe. 
 

[Lorien19]

Selling it to the extremists is always the catch, isn't it?  

Unfortunately it's always the catch,It's even if the number of extremists is smaller than the number of those who want to compromise,they rarely stay put and tend to be noisier,it is expected that sooner or later they'll drag others with them.
 

 

Well Fiona wants an Autonomous circle. Her cause is not extreme even if her methods seems like they are.

 

 

Well I'm not writing it but its about mages governing themselves and Templars can only interfere in their lives if there is an emergency or when for example first enchanter asks them to.

Usually it's the methods that make some extremist,even if they fight for a just cause,(which in my opinion is  in Fiona's case)
But I agree about the role of templars in this scenario,they should interfere in case of emergency,but not control their lives,or have them imprisoned.Though it would be preferred if they were not associated with the chantry and it's views about magic(Justinia may be sympathetic,but it would not always be the case),They should be just a group of warriors able to negate magic when they're needed.

[Grieving Natashina]

I said this in the Uneven thread, but it fits here too:

 

For example, to sum up several posts I've made in here on the subject: I liked the way Rivain's system seemed to work for years: Allowing mages to have families and influence in society, have more personal freedoms, but with some minor Chantry oversight to make sure no one got out of hand as well as an agreement to aid the nation's templars when required.   

[Paul E Dangerously]

I actually think the Isolationists have the right idea. The mages aren't allowed to wander around freely anyway, so just give them an island somewhere and let them do what they like.

[Dean_the_Young]

Truism: the mark of a good compromise is that it makes everybody miserable.

 

I'd be one of the first people to point out all of the flaws with the way the Circles worked initially, and have consistently pointed out the flaws with whatever the hell the 'pro-mage' endgame is (one key problem is that it doesn't seem like there is much of a pro-mage endgame).

 

But moderation and compromise in and of themselves are not necessarily ideal states. If one person says that it's a good idea to, say, kill off all the dogs in the world, and another person says that it is not, the midpoint of those two proposals is not acceptable either. We wouldn't say "oh let's only slaughter half the doggies! that's a good compromise!" Compromise is often difficult to craft in an acceptable fashion, and even a well-crafted compromise stands an excellent chance of failing.

 

Truth be told, I don't have any ideas about how to solve the problem moving forward. All I'm really any good for is pointing out all the flaws with other people's proposals. I'm not on any of the spectra of opinions: pro-mage, pro-templar, or pro-compromise. I'm especially wary of staking out some sort of position when I don't know anything about the context we'll get served up in DA:I.

 

On a side note, I'm getting the sense that my current username is awkward, because nobody seems to have a good idea about how to abbreviate it and 'Sarantapechaina' is a pain in the butt to type out.

 

The name is a reference to the Roman Empress Eirene. Sarantapechaina - male form Sarantapechos - was her family name; she was minor Athenian nobility before marrying Emperor Leōn IV. She had a kid, then her husband died, then she was her kid's regent, then she got tired of her kid acting out and had him blinded and exiled in order to rule on her own for five years before a camarilla of state bureaucrats and military officers forced her into her own internal exile. Eirene was absolutely ruthless, an extremely capable politician, and a ruler who initiated key reforms that continued to strengthen the Empire long after her death. She was also one of the few medieval rulers who had a direct impact on most of her subjects' lives through her close management of the Iconoclast controversy and related theological and cultural disputes. I think she was a terrible person - she had her own son blinded just so she could take power for herself! - but an incredibly interesting historical figure.

 

I guess you could abbreviate it to Eirene? Or I could change it to something easier, like "Aimi Haraguni".

 

Well, yeah, it is awkward, but at least I now understand why it's interesting! I think I might have heard about her twice in all my llife.

 

'Eirene' would get my vote- unless you want people thinking you're a Japanese music fan rather than a history buff.

[Grieving Natashina]

Well, yeah, it is awkward, but at least I now understand why it's interesting! I think I might have heard about her twice in all my llife.

 

'Eirene' would get my vote- unless you want people thinking you're a Japanese music fan rather than a history buff.

I agree with Dean, although not everyone would get the music reference.   That seems like a safe change and it's rather pretty too. 

[Banxey]

I said this in the Uneven thread, but it fits here too:

 

For example, to sum up several posts I've made in here on the subject: I liked the way Rivain's system seemed to work for years: Allowing mages to have families and influence in society, have more personal freedoms, but with some minor Chantry oversight to make sure no one got out of hand as well as an agreement to aid the nation's templars when required.   

 

I've had similar thoughts to that and consider myself pro-compromise. But I swear every time I check into that thread it seems to be focused on things like mass extermination, rape, nazis, mutilation, etc. I clearly have seriously bad timing.

[Grieving Natashina]

I've had similar thoughts to that and consider myself pro-compromise. But I swear every time I check into that thread it seems to be focused on things like mass extermination, rape, nazis, mutilation, etc. I clearly have seriously bad timing.

Yeah, the thread has it's really bad days, but it's usually not that scary in there.  A lot of it is timing.  

[Inprea]

I actually think the Isolationists have the right idea. The mages aren't allowed to wander around freely anyway, so just give them an island somewhere and let them do what they like.

 

I tend to agree with the isolationist as well though they're those who would claim the mages would organize and try to take over their neighbors eventually. Personally I'm surprised the Lacrosian's or however you spell it never formed a secret shadow government. They're a group of educated, intelligent individuals, with super powers who are only interested in making money. How does that not result in a shadow government that uses chains of wealth to control the world?

 

I believe the solution should be more dynamic then give them an island though. Rather I would say the mage should be able to choose what circle they want to live in, if they want to live on the island or if they want to move to the imperium. Unless the circle doesn't want them. No moving to where you're not welcome. In much the same way though I believe it should be up to the local government if the circle or templars are even welcome. I tend to believe that many pro-mages and pro-templars do a terrible job of respecting the common people's right to self government even if they claim to be protecting them. If a nation wants to outlaw mages it's is their nation after all but I would say the mages should be allowed to take their toys and go play somewhere else. If on the other hand a nation wants to outlaw the templars they should respect the decision of that land's government and leave.

[thetinyevil]

Isolationist is a good idea until you remember that is how the current Circle system was created. They were originally allowed to govern themselves with minimal Chantry and templar oversight. Which grew to more and more oversight until they took over completely, making the current system that caused the rebellion in the first place. Since that plan has already failed I don't think it work any better the second time unless you completely remove the Chantry and the templars form the equation. Which, I can't believe I'm saying this, would be a bad idea. As much as I hate the templar organization they do provide a protection for the mages and mundane. So there would still need to be templars or something similar to guard against abominations. 

 

Also what good would it to Isolate mages anyway. They provide a great service to Thedas, during wars and illness, if they were allowed to help. So there is another kink in that plan. It would be like praying over a open wound instead of treating it.

[Inprea]

Isolationist is a good idea until you remember that is how the current Circle system was created. They were originally allowed to govern themselves with minimal Chantry and templar oversight. Which grew to more and more oversight until they took over completely, making the current system that caused the rebellion in the first place. Since that plan has already failed I don't think it work any better the second time unless you completely remove the Chantry and the templars form the equation. Which, I can't believe I'm saying this, would be a bad idea. As much as I hate the templar organization they do provide a protection for the mages and mundane. So there would still need to be templars or something similar to guard against abominations. 

 

Also what good would it to Isolate mages anyway. They provide a great service to Thedas, during wars and illness, if they were allowed to help. So there is another kink in that plan. It would be like praying over a open wound instead of treating it.

 

The mages in the isolationist situation would have one another for protection. It wouldn't be just one mage per island after all. Plus I do question how much protection the templars actually provide. Most cases I know of where the templars tried to protect the mages they either failed horribly or ran and abandoned the mage. Even in the few cases I can think of where the templars protected the mages most of them ran.

 

Now for abominations. Well freedom comes at a price is how I see it. The more freedom you have the more responsible for your own well being you are. The mages would have to handle the abomination on their own.That's one reason I like a dynamic system with options. If you don't want this responsibility then just stay in the circle and give up the freedoms that come with it.

 

As for the good. Well we'd actually get to see how important mage healing services are. If people suddenly started losing several children to sickness and the like when before a mage might have healed then it would provide a reason to make the circles a better place in order to tempt the mages back. If the mages didn't like how they were being treated they'd have the option to strike.

 

Which really I wonder why the mages never went on strike as well. I may be wrong but it seems like the chantry gets a lot of its wealth from the lyrium trade. Yet only tranquil and a few master smiths can work it. I may be wrong but it seems like the circle would be the primary buyer. Which honestly reminds me of a company story in a mining town. Yet why didn't the mages ever just say. No. We won't be buying anymore lyrium or doing anything else until this this and this changes. They could have even built up a surplus of food and other supplies so they could hold out. Perhaps even worked on creation and entropy style spells that would let them grow crops.

[naddaya]

A circle overseen by enchanters who both train their apprentices and slay them in case they became abominations would be better than the templars. Which is what happens in ferelden if you ask for the circle's independence. Let the mages rule themselves.

They need better training. The warden and Hawke are both results of strong willpower and good training, which the circle of Kirkwall didn't provide. Also, setting up circles in areas where the veil is thin isn't a mart move. Smaller circles in safe, stable areas would be an improvement.