600 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, the thread is about what our opinions on the issue are and how to best fix it, not what the uneducated, backwards approach would be. Though, from talking to the people of Thedas in game, I'm also not entirely convinced the majority is that oblivious to the concept. 

And Westerners (rarely bother to) wonder why so many of their interventions and state-building efforts have routinely been disasters.

 

 

The population couldn't sustain major losses as should be implied to exist. That's the point that's being ignored. They only have so many people.

 

Where is it implied the population losses are unsustainable?

 

The Tevinter are engaged in a minor war of their own initiative and pacing. No one is claiming abominations have been occuring at a rate to consume all mages, or produce demographically existential attrition. Revolts are not a cause of major casualties on a demographic scale. Tevinter is constantly importing slaves which can replace losses to all three categories.

[LobselVith8]

See that's the issue i draw with blood magic defenders, they harp on how pseudo blood magic (magic involving blood, not forcefully using it as a method of powering spells or causing harm to be blood magic) is blood magic which it clearly doesn't fit the criteria.

The developers said the Joining and the phylacteries are forms of blood magic. As Gaider said, "Regardless the magic the Templars use doesn't involve mind control, it's not forbidden magic, there's nothing about it--especially since it can only against mages--there's nothing about it that would make the Chantry step in and go "Wow, that's bad." But then we're talking about a Chantry that also has phylacteries in every Circle, which is a type of blood magic, so there's definitely an element of hypocrisy there."

And no, Finn used Scrying, a non blood magic talent, it can or doesn't need blood as a component as revealed from the Stolen Throne novel via Gaider, Blood merely aids the process. And the same goes for basically everything you listed, Blood magic is blood magic to some people, and to me? Blood Magic is a corrupt little abominational school of thought that, works on the principle of using blood to power spells, not that it need be used in spells.

Finn said the ritual he used to locate the Eluvian would be viewed as blood magic, which is why he swore everyone to secrecy.

So no, i don't compare the joining to blood wound, you may, but i don't.

It doesn't change the facts, nevertheless.

[Xilizhra]

...because the Orlesians were seen as illegitimate invaders and were oppressive to boot. Basic political squabble with an aggressor. I am honestly confused about what aspect of human rights you think is necessary for a resistance or rebellion.

 

Not as you or I know them.

The point is that the organizers of the rebellion clearly felt that casualties would be justified to secure freedom. Similarly, it doesn't take an anachronism to believe that the Chantry's actions in controlling the Circle have been illegitimate. It doesn't even require being a mage, as the mage underground proves.

 

And

"A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that is what this Circle is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. The Circles will break—if it be one year, a decade, a century, or beyond. Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!"

doesn't sound so unfamiliar to me.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Why should we assume that?

 

We don't need high rates of abominations and casualties. We need socially unacceptable rates of abominations and casualties.

 

Your conjecture to date has been based on a lack of data. Evidence, by it's nature, requires data.

This is a theory on both our parts. Neither of us has any concrete, undeniable evidence to support our theory, it's just that. 

 

I see more evidence to suggest the casualties are relatively low than not. Tevinter already spends a lot of money on lyrium and slaves for blood magic. Their resources are finite, just like their populace. I'm not convinced the arguments that the losses are high and just soaked are more substantial than the argument that they must just be better controlled. I acknowledge that both of these theories are just our opinion based on the evidence we can scrape together. It's possible that your theory is right, but I think there's also a strong argument that it's not. 

 

My opinion is that the casualties have to be pretty high to constitute the lack of freedom of a decent sized portion of the population. It's not an objective argument, but it's not any less objective than any other. I wouldn't think the concept of freedom would be terribly alien to the people of Thedas, though. After all, Andraste was an escaped slave. Their whole religion is born out of a respect for freedom. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The developers said the Joining and the phylacteries are forms of blood magic. As Gaider said, "Regardless the magic the Templars use doesn't involve mind control, it's not forbidden magic, there's nothing about it--especially since it can only against mages--there's nothing about it that would make the Chantry step in and go "Wow, that's bad." But then we're talking about a Chantry that also has phylacteries in every Circle, which is a type of blood magic, so there's definitely an element of hypocrisy there."


Finn said the ritual he used to locate the Eluvian would be viewed as blood magic, which is why he swore everyone to secrecy.


It doesn't change the facts, nevertheless.

 

The Devs said as much sure, but that doesn't make it comparable to what you are attempting to convey, oh sure there is nothing different about staring a demon in the eye to learn blood magic and using trace amounts of blood to form a location spell. I don't see the hypocrisy personally, but then again i am not the one drawing this comparison am i?

 

He said it certainly was a gray area so he would appreciate no one mentioning it, and to some that implies its forbidden blood magic, to me though? Given Scying can or can not use blood and its merely a component i again wouldn't view it in the same light as demonic blood magic.

 

I agree.

 

Blood Magic and Pseudo Blood Magic remain different.

[Lulupab]

This is a theory on both our parts. Neither of us has any concrete, undeniable evidence to support our theory, it's just that. 

 

I see more evidence to suggest the casualties are relatively low than not. Tevinter already spends a lot of money on lyrium and slaves for blood magic. Their resources are finite, just like their populace. I'm not convinced the arguments that the losses are high and just soaked are more substantial than the argument that they must just be better controlled. I acknowledge that both of these theories are just our opinion based on the evidence we can scrape together. It's possible that your theory is right, but I think there's also a strong argument that it's not. 

 

My opinion is that the casualties have to be pretty high to constitute the lack of freedom of a decent sized portion of the population. It's not an objective argument, but it's not any less objective than any other. I wouldn't think the concept of freedom would be terribly alien to the people of Thedas, though. After all, Andraste was an escaped slave. Their whole religion is born out of a respect for freedom. 

 

I agree however we should also notice that it doesn't mean a religion that was born out of respect for freedom was not twisted and reformed after its prophet for better or worse. The same that happened to some religions in our world. There is absolutely no evidence suggesting the southern Andrastians aka the "white" ones are more right than Northern Tevinter version. It all comes to what they understood from "magic must serve man and not to rule over him".

[Dean_the_Young]

The point is that the organizers of the rebellion clearly felt that casualties would be justified to secure freedom. Similarly, it doesn't take an anachronism to believe that the Chantry's actions in controlling the Circle have been illegitimate. It doesn't even require being a mage, as the mage underground proves.

 

The organizers of the rebellion felt that casualties would be justified to secure their freedom and power and prerogatives. That's not the same usage of freedom being used in the context you quoted. Neither of those is human rights and freedoms as western liberalism knows them.

 

Funny thing, freedom. It means different things in different contexts.

 

As for legitimacy, that derives from the society that exists- not you or me.

[Xilizhra]

The organizers of the rebellion felt that casualties would be justified to secure their freedom and power and prerogatives. That's not the same usage of freedom being used in the context you quoted. Neither of those is human rights and freedoms as western liberalism knows them.

 

Funny thing, freedom. It means different things in different contexts.

 

As for legitimacy, that derives from the society that exists- not you or me.

My point is that it doesn't have to be. One can work towards mage emancipation from the Chantry and be neither anachronistic nor unfeeling towards the problems of mundanes.

[wcholcombe]

The point is that the organizers of the rebellion clearly felt that casualties would be justified to secure freedom. Similarly, it doesn't take an anachronism to believe that the Chantry's actions in controlling the Circle have been illegitimate. It doesn't even require being a mage, as the mage underground proves.

 

How is it illegitimate-The countries have ceded authority over handling of mages to the Chantry-That makes it lawfully legitimate.  There isn't a country that the mages are in circles where the countries haven't already signed a treaty giving the chantry authority to handle the issue.

 

The dalish aren't a country and are accosted when they are in chantry countries, so therefore when a nomadic people travel through a country they are subject to the laws of said country- No different then gypsies/travelers/pikeys in parts of Europe today or even back in the middle ages.

 

And even in the case of Morrigan and Flemeth, Morrigan admits the templars only came looking for them when they brought attention to themselves in chantry areas.

[Master Warder Z_]

Templar: "Now listen to me you cussed up Gypsy! Hand over the Mages!"

 

Stupidly Arrogant Random Dalish:  "Go back to you're cities shem there be nothin here for ya!"

 

T: "You are beholden to the law to turn over all mages to us! Last warning before i signal my men to attack!"

 

SARD: Shem we need no follow you're law! We Dalish fear nothing She- *is cut off by being beheaded*

 

T: "Idiot."

[Dean_the_Young]

This is a theory on both our parts. Neither of us has any concrete, undeniable evidence to support our theory, it's just that.

 

That abomination and mage costs acceptable in Tevinter are socially unacceptable in White Thedas? Er, we do have concrete, undeniable evidence: the Circle System,Tevinter's deviation from it. Both are the reactions of the effective power centers of their respective societies to situations that were deemed insufficient.

 

 

 

I see more evidence to suggest the casualties are relatively low than not. Tevinter already spends a lot of money on lyrium and slaves for blood magic. Their resources are finite, just like their populace. I'm not convinced the arguments that the losses are high and just soaked are more substantial than the argument that they must just be better controlled. I acknowledge that both of these theories are just our opinion based on the evidence we can scrape together. It's possible that your theory is right, but I think there's also a strong argument that it's not. 

 

 

I'm honestly confused where you think financial or population sustainability costs factored in at all. That's not the argument being made by most people who raise the spectre of abomination casualties: the argument is 'dozens or hundreds of casualties in an outbreak is too many to tolerate', not 'dozens or hundreds of casualties in an outbreak is too many to sustain a population.' Toleration is a matter of a willingness to accept costs: population sustainment is a matter of a mathematical ability to accept costs.

 

Given that Tevinter regularly and systematically absorbs and ignores mundane costs in other fields (like, say, mageocracy, slavery, and a voluntary war), I have no idea what standard of proof you would require to consider the idea that they might not care much about mundane casualties from an abomination outbreak so long as it doesn't threaten their power. Which in and of itself is a huge range short between 'too many casualties to sustain' and 'superior results.'

 

 

My opinion is that the casualties have to be pretty high to constitute the lack of freedom of a decent sized portion of the population. It's not an objective argument, but it's not any less objective than any other.

 

What constitutes a decent sized portion of the population? Mages aren't one in ten, or even one in a hundred. They may not even be one in a thousand.

 

 

 

I wouldn't think the concept of freedom would be terribly alien to the people of Thedas, though. After all, Andraste was an escaped slave. Their whole religion is born out of a respect for freedom.

 

 

Freedom from what? What was Andraste rebelling against, and who were her enslavers?

 

The Andrastian religion was born out of opposition to mage abuses, not a western understanding of universal human rights and political freedom. Freedom means many things- in the Andrastian context, 'freedom' was in the context of safety from mages, not empowering them to repeat it.

[Xilizhra]

How is it illegitimate-The countries have ceded authority over handling of mages to the Chantry-That makes it lawfully legitimate.  There isn't a country that the mages are in circles where the countries haven't already signed a treaty giving the chantry authority to handle the issue.

 

The dalish aren't a country and are accosted when they are in chantry countries, so therefore when a nomadic people travel through a country they are subject to the laws of said country- No different then gypsies/travelers/pikeys in parts of Europe today or even back in the middle ages.

 

And even in the case of Morrigan and Flemeth, Morrigan admits the templars only came looking for them when they brought attention to themselves in chantry areas.

Yes, and? Just because it's legal doesn't mean you have to think it's right.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yes, and? Just because it's legal doesn't mean you have to think it's right.

 

._. No but it does mean you are beholden to obey it.

[wcholcombe]

Yes, and? Just because it's legal doesn't mean you have to think it's right.

You said illegitimate Xil.  I never said anything about right.  If the chantry is legitimized in dealing with mages by the local governments then it is legitimate.

 

We weren't discussing right or wrong.

[Xilizhra]

._. No but it does mean you are beholden to obey it.

Assuming you obey it. Neither of our protagonists thus far have been all too strict about legal niceties, nor has a great deal of the population.

 

You said illegitimate Xil.  I never said anything about right.  If the chantry is legitimized in dealing with mages by the local governments then it is legitimate.

 

We weren't discussing right or wrong.

The Chantry legitimized Orlais' rule over Ferelden, too. Maric didn't care.

[Dean_the_Young]

My point is that it doesn't have to be. One can work towards mage emancipation from the Chantry and be neither anachronistic nor unfeeling towards the problems of mundanes.

 

Yet your example just showed that people will accept casualties to further their own political interests and privilages, which was not in doubt. Self-interested freedoms in one's own interest is not what we are talking about: accepting costs on yourself for the freedoms of others at your own expense is.

 

I'm understand what you're trying to argue against, but I don't see how you think you are succeeding in doing so.

[Xilizhra]

Yet your example just showed that people will accept casualties to further their own political interests and privilages, which was not in doubt. Self-interested freedoms in one's own interest is not what we are talking about: accepting costs on yourself for the freedoms of others at your own expense is.

 

I'm understand what you're trying to argue against, but I don't see how you think you are succeeding in doing so.

I don't agree. The mage underground shows that many people were willing to take risks to secure others' freedom at no direct benefit to themselves.

[wcholcombe]

Assuming you obey it. Neither of our protagonists thus far have been all too strict about legal niceties, nor has a great deal of the population.

 

 

 

The Chantry legitimized Orlais' rule over Ferelden, too. Maric didn't care.

Yeah, because guess what-Orlais had legitimately conquered Ferelden.  The fact that there was a rebellion doesn't illegitimize the fact that Ferelden was conquered.  By your logic the existance of the IRA or the PLO makes the UK or Israeli governments illegitimate.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah, because guess what-Orlais had legitimately conquered Ferelden.  The fact that there was a rebellion doesn't illegitimize the fact that Ferelden was conquered.  By your logic the existance of the IRA or the PLO makes the UK or Israeli governments illegitimate.

 

Ummm

 

The PLO does make the existence of Israeli occupied Palestine illegitimate...Just saying >+>

 

*donates to causes*

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, because guess what-Orlais had legitimately conquered Ferelden.  The fact that there was a rebellion doesn't illegitimize the fact that Ferelden was conquered.  By your logic the existance of the IRA or the PLO makes the UK or Israeli governments illegitimate.

My argument had been to Dean, regarding the Fereldans seeing the Orlesians as illegitimate. The question here is one of perception.

[wcholcombe]

Ummm

 

The PLO does make the existence of Israeli occupied Palestine illegitimate...Just saying >+>

 

*donates to causes*

Does the "Republic of Texas" millitia group make the government of texas by the united states illegitimate--No.

 

Israel is legitimately recognized as the governing body of Israel.  The fact that there is a rebellion group doesn't make them illegitimate.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

That abomination and mage costs acceptable in Tevinter are socially unacceptable in White Thedas? Er, we do have concrete, undeniable evidence: the Circle System,Tevinter's deviation from it. Both are the reactions of the effective power centers of their respective societies to situations that were deemed insufficient.

 

I'm honestly confused where you think financial or population sustainability costs factored in at all. That's not the argument being made by most people who raise the spectre of abomination casualties: the argument is 'dozens or hundreds of casualties in an outbreak is too many to tolerate', not 'dozens or hundreds of casualties in an outbreak is too many to sustain a population.' Toleration is a matter of a willingness to accept costs: population sustainment is a matter of a mathematical ability to accept costs.

 

Given that Tevinter regularly and systematically absorbs and ignores mundane costs in other fields (like, say, mageocracy, slavery, and a voluntary war), I have no idea what standard of proof you would require to consider the idea that they might not care much about mundane casualties from an abomination outbreak so long as it doesn't threaten their power. Which in and of itself is a huge range short between 'too many casualties to sustain' and 'superior results.'

 

What constitutes a decent sized portion of the population? Mages aren't one in ten, or even one in a hundred. They may not even be one in a thousand.

 

Freedom from what? What was Andraste rebelling against, and who were her enslavers?

 

The Andrastian religion was born out of opposition to mage abuses, not a western understanding of universal human rights and political freedom. Freedom means many things- in the Andrastian context, 'freedom' was in the context of safety from mages, not empowering them to repeat it.

If you're not saving more than half as many lives as you're locking up, then the system isn't really worth it to me. You're free to disagree with that, obviously, but my entire argument is based on my opinion that the casualties have to be high to justify the system. If Tevinter is able to fight a substantial war and gorge themselves on blood sacrifices while staying a rich, stable country while they're doing literally everything that could possibly raise the risk of abominations, in theory, then my only conclusion is that the risk isn't high enough for me to justify the system or they're doing a more effective job containing it. 

 

I'm more so leaning towards containment based on issues like Feynriel's reports that they know how to better control "dreamer" powers and the lack of anyone mentioning seeing any of these abomination attacks. But, honestly, I feel like your bias keeps you from admitting there could be any substance to the theory, so this is basically an exercise in futility. We're not really discussing the possibility, let's be honest, you're acting defensively towards your favored position. 

[Lulupab]

Yeah, because guess what-Orlais had legitimately conquered Ferelden.  The fact that there was a rebellion doesn't illegitimize the fact that Ferelden was conquered.  By your logic the existance of the IRA or the PLO makes the UK or Israeli governments illegitimate.

 

I don't see why you make that comparison. The chantry made it legal and Maric didn't care and made Ferelden independent anyway. That is exactly why Chantry has very weak presence in Ferelden in comparison to other nations. The religion is there but there is no enforcing of chantry laws especially in how Ferelden itself works.

 

Its like the pope making something official but a nation not caring and doing it anyway. Has happened many times already and it was quite legal.

[Master Warder Z_]

Does the "Republic of Texas" millitia group make the government of texas by the united states illegitimate--No.

 

Israel is legitimately recognized as the governing body of Israel.  The fact that there is a rebellion group doesn't make them illegitimate.

 

Did you seriously just compare a Militia to the PLO?

 

A Political entity recognized by the UN disagrees with that assessment.

[wcholcombe]

Did you seriously just compare a Militia to the PLO?

 

A Political entity recognized by the UN disagrees with that assessment.

Ok, forgot that the PLO had promised to stop using aggression or terrorism.  They still are more like a giant special interest group considering there is no country of Palestine.

 

Substitute Hezbollah for PLO, my apologies.