600 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

My theories aren't based on any more lack of evidence than yours are, you're just not really willing to admit that. We're just assuming. I'm not really convinced your argument "sucks" any less. 

 

Why the invented ratios or fallacy assumptions to support your conclusions, then? I thought you weren't into the whole uneducated, backward approach to reasoning.

 

We don't need to make assumptions based on numbers we don't know if we base them off of examples of what we do know. That's the long and short of it- Connor's existence is the grounds for planning against contexts like Connor. The fact that established, educated, ad presumably non-backwards states base precautionary systems over potential harm rather than likely harm is the model to be applied.

 

You don't need numbers, relative or absolute, to support an argument of contingency. You do need numbers, relative or absolute, to support an argument of numeric comparison.

 

 

 

 

Connor's event happened in a period where the Blight and brewing civil issues in the area made the situation go unnoticed longer than it likely would have otherwise. The baroness situation had apparently happened quite a long time prior. The "Blackmarsh Undying" quest is NOT supposed to imply something that happened recently. It's supposed to have been a mage that trapped her people in the fade so that she could feed off them towards basically immortality, or an extended life, at any rate. The wiki says the baroness was actually "alive" during the occupation of Ferelden by Orlais. So, I would say those two events don't speak much for the long term risks. They are major events, sure. They're horrible and tragic. However, they're not that large in the scope of things having only the two to go on and not much evidence that they're likely to continue happening often.

 

 

The fact that context can make responses go unnoticed longer than likely is the great example of why a constant observation presence is called for- that is in and of itself the point of ensuring a rapid recognition and response is always at hand. The issue pro-Circle system advocates have is that many mage-independent advocates are opposed to the means necessary to achieve that.

 

The Barness being alive during the Orlesian occupation is the element that potentially puts it in non-ancient history. She made her deal in the time of Dragons, allegedly, but the ambiguity of when she consumed the area is what potentially puts it in a generation (or, if you prefer, a life time) of the events of Connor.

 

 

Still, the staff implies to us constantly that we're supposed to believe that abominations are a big threat. I'm willing to say that maybe the threat is minimized by the limitations of story telling. This is a meta argument, but I think it's probably true. The threat is likely bigger than the evidence suggests, because they can only tell us so many stories. Thus, why I'm more inclined to think Tevinter is controlling the issue better and not that the issue isn't real.

 

 

Being a big threat is different from being an existential threat, which is how you've been arguing the demographic piece.

 

 

Knowledge is definitely a mitigating factor when it comes to harm. If they know more about protecting themselves from demons, then that knowledge could be used to keep abomination counts down everywhere. That's with OR without the additional use of the circle and the templars. If they know how to control conditions that the rest of Thedas doesn't understand that makes possession more likely and/or they know how to better keep themselves from being possessed then that obviously mitigates harm. There's no argument against that, it's obvious fact. Whether you want to throw out the templars, etc, in favor of it is irrelevant. It's a preventative measure regardless what other measures you use on top of it, or which you substitute it for. 

 

Mage education is already a part of the Circle System- it's not like this is some Tevinter secret the Circles are too paranoid to learn. While there are elements of magic and mages that the Tevinter do understand and master (and abuse) better than the Circle, there's been nothing in the lore about the relative occurance of abominations one way or another. Until there is evidence or some comparison to justify the idea that Tevinter has better results in reducing the toll of abominations, though, arguing that they do is arguing from nothing.

[Dean_the_Young]

I did not mean that by "absolutes". The more something close to reality the more it becomes far away from being absolutely good or evil. Everything becomes grey and that's the way it is. The real question is how grey is it? one drop of black color makes a large quantity of white grey, there could also be equal amount of black and white. We should consider this when analyzing mage underground as we are talking about a society that every single person and organization expect self profit and interest in what they do and mage underground is no different. Seeing how risky it is and mages usually don't have much to pay them I'd say its the good kind of grey. The members of mage underground help mages and make just enough to continue it. Did I mention the risks?

 

But mages do have things to offer in return- mages do have monetary resources, do have abilities that are in handy in lieu of money, and can make significant impacts in the interests of smugglers. Moreover, being a part of the mage underground itself can be in the interest of the members: there are risks, yes, but potential gains and influence as well. When, if, the mage rebellion is in full swing, what sort of status and influence do you think the members of the mage underground will have with the mages compared to people who didn't?

 

There are other forms of interest other than direct monetary. Assigning motivations to the mage underground, or denying them, is missing a few points (including that the mage underground isn't a major ideological group in the first place).

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Why the invented ratios or fallacy assumptions to support your conclusions, then? I thought you weren't into the whole uneducated, backward approach to reasoning.

 

We don't need to make assumptions based on numbers we don't know if we base them off of examples of what we do know. That's the long and short of it- Connor's existence is the grounds for planning against contexts like Connor. The fact that established, educated, ad presumably non-backwards states base precautionary systems over potential harm rather than likely harm is the model to be applied.

 

You don't need numbers, relative or absolute, to support an argument of contingency. You do need numbers, relative or absolute, to support an argument of numeric comparison.

 

The fact that context can make responses go unnoticed longer than likely is the great example of why a constant observation presence is called for- that is in and of itself the point of ensuring a rapid recognition and response is always at hand. The issue pro-Circle system advocates have is that many mage-independent advocates are opposed to the means necessary to achieve that.

 

The Barness being alive during the Orlesian occupation is the element that potentially puts it in non-ancient history. She made her deal in the time of Dragons, allegedly, but the ambiguity of when she consumed the area is what potentially puts it in a generation (or, if you prefer, a life time) of the events of Connor.

 

Being a big threat is different from being an existential threat, which is how you've been arguing the demographic piece.

 

Mage education is already a part of the Circle System- it's not like this is some Tevinter secret the Circles are too paranoid to learn. While there are elements of magic and mages that the Tevinter do understand and master (and abuse) better than the Circle, there's been nothing in the lore about the relative occurance of abominations one way or another. Until there is evidence or some comparison to justify the idea that Tevinter has better results in reducing the toll of abominations, though, arguing that they do is arguing from nothing.

What's your reason for doing the same? You're making assumptions based on limited experience in the game, so am I. My impression is what it is. I'm not super attached to it. When better evidence comes along that it's not, I'll move on to a new theory. We're both approaching this from a small amount of evidence that leads to a certain conclusion. Your argument is that Tevinter is soaking the loss, but it's an assumption with no confirmed evidence. I'm admitting to you that you might be right, but I also think you could just as easily be wrong. I'm not even really "arguing". You talk like I'm stating this as fact. I've pretty clearly stated that I'm not.

 

We absolutely have to "make assumptions" about the numbers, because we don't have a confirmed figure. We have a very limited amount of events to go on. Connor was the result of a whole number of unlikely events brewing into the perfect storm. It doesn't tell us much at all about the long term risk to the population as a whole. It's totally unclear when the Baroness even started out her part. We're working from very limited information and events, so we're going to have to make assumptions. 

 

Mage education is part of the Circle, that doesn't mean it's as good as it could be. How do you know they don't have "secret" knowledge in Tevinter that the Circle doesn't have? They seem to know more about dreamers. I don't know for sure how much they have, or if they have more knowledge. You don't really either. If you said in your other post that you believe they know more about the dreamer power, then you're basically already admitting they know more about ONE thing. I didn't argue it's because of "paranoia". I don't know exactly why it is. Possibly it is because their study is more limited. From the mage Origin, it didn't seem as though they made much actual effort to teach about demons, though, I'll be honest. The harrowing seemed as much winning the lottery as proving you knew how to handle demons. All it basically proved was that you managed to resist one type of demon in one situation. I can't really imagine there isn't a better way to approach the issue. It's possible that they know as much and they're not sharing it, but that seems like an absurd position, so I wouldn't know why they would take that approach. It's obviously better for everyone if mages know as much as possible about resisting demons, I can't see them benefiting from withholding the information if they had it.

[Tevinter Soldier]

for me the black chantry solution seems the best, simply acknowledging the true words of andraste.

 

"Magic Exists to serve man, and never rule over him". the Imperium demonstrates that Mages don't need to locked up. 

 

blood magics prevalence in tevinter is a result of the nations history much like slavery that still exists there, If it cannot be accepted that the towers of magi can rule themselves and need no further over site then there can be no middle ground.

 

hell you can still argue that means mages cannot enter politics if you want, but theres no denying that the chantry currently twists andraste's words to maintain their grip on power. If the chantry decides to treat mages equally through self rule, then theres no conflict with the chantry and circle.

 

the templars can co-exist to IF they are willing to be re-tasked, Serving as guardians of the circle each circle has its own contingent that answers to the first enchanter.

 

if the first enchanter allows Blood magic and Maleficarum to go unpunished or if the First enchanter is the one involved in it, the Knight commander can appeal to the college of enchanters for judgement.

 

the college has final say on matters such as right of annulment and tranquility. Whilst, first Enchanters decide who goes to Aeonar. 

[wcholcombe]

for me the black chantry solution seems the best, simply acknowledging the true words of andraste.

 

"Magic Exists to serve man, and never rule over him". the Imperium demonstrates that Mages don't need to locked up. 

 

blood magics prevalence in tevinter is a result of the nations history much like slavery that still exists there, If it cannot be accepted that the towers of magi can rule themselves and need no further over site then there can be no middle ground.

 

hell you can still argue that means mages cannot enter politics if you want, but theres no denying that the chantry currently twists andraste's words to maintain their grip on power. If the chantry decides to treat mages equally through self rule, then theres no conflict with the chantry and circle.

 

the templars can co-exist to IF they are willing to be re-tasked, Serving as guardians of the circle each circle has its own contingent that answers to the first enchanter.

 

if the first enchanter allows Blood magic and Maleficarum to go unpunished or if the First enchanter is the one involved in it, the Knight commander can appeal to the college of enchanters for judgement.

 

the college has final say on matters such as right of annulment and tranquility. Whilst, first Enchanters decide who goes to Aeonar. 

Umm the imperial Chantry invented the circle system.  They have changed the chant of light to "meant that magic must serve the greater good and not used to control the minds of others"  meaning blood magic is illegal, but just about everyone including the black divine still practice it.'

 

You have to belong to a circle, though it doesn't appear you are confined to it for life. However, the imperium also practically requires you to be a mage to hold political office. You can come from a family of mages, but the Magisters still rule tevinter and non mage family citizens are basically 2nd class citizens.

[Swoopdogg]

I'd say a sort of Jedi-like system would work best

 

Teach mages that their power should be used for the betterment of the world, and never for personal gain. Teach them that their magic belongs to the world, and thus it is for the world that they should use it. Mages learn this philosophy under experienced and wiser mages. They are not locked away in towers, but instead learn at sort of Guild-like places in the cities and major towns throughout Thedas. Mages are required by law to join one of these guilds (thus being part of the Circle) otherwise they'd be an apostate. If mages ever use their power for evil, then they will be hunted down and punished accordingly, like any criminal.

 

It's a matter of education, rather than locking them up and telling them they're cursed, or the other way around and giving them complete freedom, which would lead to Tevinter pt.2

 

Furthering this point, the reason laws work in society is because people are afraid of getting caught and going to prison. Mages in the current circle system don't fear using blood magic or doing other "evil" things because they're already in prison.

 

Give them freedom and make them afraid to lose it

[Mistic]

I'd say a sort of Jedi-like system would work best

 

Well, Jedi are an interesting example.

 

They have mind-controlling powers (the greates fear about blood mages), they can get drunk on the dark side and become menaces, and Force users are behind the greatest disturbances in the galaxy. So how do they avoid getting imprisoned in Circle Towers?

 

They colaborate with the authorities. They're also very aware of the dangers of the Dark Side and are the first to point out the risks. And they use different words to differenciate certain concepts, to paint them in a better light. Good "Force mages" are Jedi. If you're a bad force mage you're not Jedi, you're Sith. Jedi are super-heroes, champions of justice and agents of peace. Sith are evil and can be killed on sight. Very good use of PR.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, Jedi are an interesting example.

 

They have mind-controlling powers (the greates fear about blood mages), they can get drunk on the dark side and become menaces, and Force users are behind the greatest disturbances in the galaxy. So how do they avoid getting imprisoned in Circle Towers?

 

They colaborate with the authorities. They're also very aware of the dangers of the Dark Side and are the first to point out the risks. And they use different words to differenciate certain concepts, to paint them in a better light. Good "Force mages" are Jedi. If you're a bad force mage you're not Jedi, you're Sith. Jedi are super-heroes, champions of justice and agents of peace. Sith are evil and can be killed on sight. Very good use of PR.

 

It's just the Jedi aren't a great example if you look into the EU.

 

They attempted a coup against the galactic alliance when they stopped getting treated like a special interest group, and instead like the possible threat they were.

 

Just saying.

[Mistic]

It's just the Jedi aren't a great example if you look into the EU.

 

They attempted a coup against the galactic alliance when they stopped getting treated like a special interest group, and instead like the possible threat they were.

 

Just saying.

 

Don't forget that the EU doesn't expand only to the 130 years after Yavin. It also expands to the 25.000 years before Yavin. It's been said several times that the Circle system has worked for centuries, but the Jedy system had worked for millennia.

[Master Warder Z_]

Don't forget that the EU doesn't expand only to the 130 years after Yavin. It also expands to the 25.000 years before Yavin. It's been said several times that the Circle system has worked for centuries, but the Jedy system had worked for millennia.

 

So does the Sith system if you want to look at it in context of teaching people how to control and manifest their power.

 

I'm just pointing out, the Jedi aren't exactly impartial arbiters considering that they have had some pretty high political influence through out the Era's.

[Mistic]

So does the Sith system if you want to look at it in context of teaching people how to control and manifest their power.

 

I'm just pointing out, the Jedi aren't exactly impartial arbiters considering that they have had some pretty high political influence through out the Era's.

 

The Sith example is still applicable. After all, doesn't the Tevinter Imperium still exist? And they haven't been run over by abominations yet, so they must be doing something well to control and manifest their power. It's another matter that they're a magocracy, but that's also the Sith for you.

 

The Jedi influence in the Old Republic was important, but always inside certain limits. Certainly, not a magocracy. Also, even the current Circle system allows some of that. Mage Warden chancellor looked like a snowflake, but Vivienne's case now brings us another example.

 

But this is just wishful thinking. The Old Republic was a liberal state with the concept of rights, duties and freedoms. Thedas is mainly feudal, or tribal, or... or whatever the Qunari are. The mentality just isn't the same. Not to talk about blasters. If people in Thedas had blasters, abominations wouldn't be as frightening as they are.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Sith example is still applicable. After all, doesn't the Tevinter Imperium still exist? And they haven't been run over by abominations yet, so they must be doing something well to control and manifest their power. It's another matter that they're a magocracy, but that's also the Sith for you.

 

The Jedi influence in the Old Republic was important, but always inside certain limits. Certainly, not a magocracy. Also, even the current Circle system allows some of that. Mage Warden chancellor looked like a snowflake, but Vivienne's case now brings us another example.

 

But this is just wishful thinking. The Old Republic was a liberal state with the concept of rights, duties and freedoms. Thedas is mainly feudal, or tribal, or... or whatever the Qunari are. The mentality just isn't the same. Not to talk about blasters. If people in Thedas had blasters, abominations wouldn't be as frightening as they are.

 

One word

 

Rakghouls.

[Mistic]

One word

 

Rakghouls.

 

Rakghouls are thought, but hardly invincible even with Old Republic weaponry (ah, I miss KOTOR, nostalgia). The problem is the plague and their multiplication. They're a combination of abomination + zombie apocalypse. Maybe the best Thedosian equivalent would be the Harvester, but it still doesn't infect others.

[Helios969]

Good points and counterpoints back and forth.  Love it.

 

Just want to clarify why I started this thread as there may be some confusion.  I did so to see if there was anyway to reconcile or find a substitute for the existing system.  Quite honestly I was having difficulty seeing a way out of the scenario the DA2 writers painted that didn't involve wholesale slaughter of one side or the other.  I also enjoy these types of hypothetical discussions as a way to understand other peoples' viewpoints.  I like the moral dilemmas Bioware presents in their games (it's why I keep coming back) and the discussions such spawns (though too many take the simplistic way out with side A / B is right.)

 

I am not arguing for absolute mage freedom any more than I am arguing for absolute Templar control.  Absolute mage freedom probably results in Tevinter-type magocracy.  Absolute Templar control leads to mage rebellion (what we have now.)  I can empathize with the plight of mages and still think some measure of control is warranted.

 

I've seen several arguments citing an increase of abomination outbreaks or one outbreak results in x # of deaths.  I think such is wholly speculative.  Do we even have concrete data under the existing system on the percentages of mages that turn to blood magic?  I realize it seems like half to two-thirds the way DA2 presents matters, but everyone should realize Kirkwall is a bit of an anomaly.  What is it under normal circumstances?

 

Also, someone mentioned some "psychological study" suggesting segregation was a good thing.  Sounds like something I want to print on toilet paper.  Regardless, if you're going to cite some "study" please post a link so that I may verify the information is in fact valid.  Otherwise it is just hearsay.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I've seen several arguments citing an increase of abomination outbreaks or one outbreak results in x # of deaths.  I think such is wholly speculative.  Do we even have concrete data under the existing system on the percentages of mages that turn to blood magic?  I realize it seems like half to two-thirds the way DA2 presents matters, but everyone should realize Kirkwall is a bit of an anomaly.  What is it under normal circumstances?

There are literally no statistical figures for Thedas. I mean, to estimate the impact of the magical issue full scope from a statistical perspective we'd obviously need numbers like..

 

-Population of Thedas

-What percentage total mages compose

-Distribution of mages per country

-Distribution of mages per city

-Distribution of mages per race

-Estimates of percentage of apostates/mages in the circle

-Estimates of percentage of mages to turn abomination under current system

-Estimates of percentage of mages to turn abomination in Tevinter

-Estimates of percentage of mages to turn abomination with the Dalish

-Death tolls from abominations

 

We have literally none of those things, so everyone is totally just guessing. People say things like "mages are 1% of people", or "hundreds of people died in Kirkwall", or "only 3 mages survived in the circle in Kirkwall", but we actually have no concrete idea what the real numbers are. 

 

Kirkwall had a very thin veil, thin enough that they said demons could just pass through underground. That's implied to have meant more mages were born in Kirkwall and they were more susceptible to possession. So, we can estimate that, whatever the percentages of abominations were in Kirkwall, they were higher than the average in Thedas. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

I'd say a sort of Jedi-like system would work best

 

Teach mages that their power should be used for the betterment of the world, and never for personal gain. Teach them that their magic belongs to the world, and thus it is for the world that they should use it. Mages learn this philosophy under experienced and wiser mages. They are not locked away in towers, but instead learn at sort of Guild-like places in the cities and major towns throughout Thedas. Mages are required by law to join one of these guilds (thus being part of the Circle) otherwise they'd be an apostate. If mages ever use their power for evil, then they will be hunted down and punished accordingly, like any criminal.

 

Factinating concept. Except humanity has tried to teach proper values and behavior since the dawn of man and we are still failing, given how much crime, death and abuse there is.

 

So "teach them to be good, trusted persons" is not a plan. It's a pipe dream.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I've seen several arguments citing an increase of abomination outbreaks or one outbreak results in x # of deaths.  I think such is wholly speculative.  Do we even have concrete data under the existing system on the percentages of mages that turn to blood magic?  I realize it seems like half to two-thirds the way DA2 presents matters, but everyone should realize Kirkwall is a bit of an anomaly.  What is it under normal circumstances?

 

Also, someone mentioned some "psychological study" suggesting segregation was a good thing.  Sounds like something I want to print on toilet paper.  Regardless, if you're going to cite some "study" please post a link so that I may verify the information is in fact valid.  Otherwise it is just hearsay.

 

The first part would be pure statistics. If abominations happen in the Circle, they are handeled there before they can hurt anyone.

Free mages that are spread around means a LOT more potential abominations that will happen where there isn't a templar presence or where any help will arrive too late. That also should be sufficient to tell you that there would be a large bodycount.

 

As for the study. I'd have to look for it, which I don't feel like doing now. But psychology is n interesting thing. People can react completely differently to the same situation.

IIRC, the study said that people who yearn for contact with another group tend to look at that group in a better light, due to their simple desire. They also project that same desire.

Logically speaking, it makes sense, but then again you can make anything sound great and rational if you put effort into it.
 

[Helios969]

Lotion: to the first part I think the counter argument would be that if you treat mages more like people and less like freaks you reduce the likelihood they go abomination on everyone. We need a system that minimizes those occurrences. I wonder how BW deals with the issue: Do they offrr a diplomatic solution, forcr us to choose sides, or chicken out and come up with some contrived device that changes the equation all together?

[Mistic]

There are literally no statistical figures for Thedas. I mean, to estimate the impact of the magical issue full scope from a statistical perspective we'd obviously need numbers like..

 

-Population of Thedas

-What percentage total mages compose

-Distribution of mages per country

-Distribution of mages per city

-Distribution of mages per race

-Estimates of percentage of apostates/mages in the circle

-Estimates of percentage of mages to turn abomination under current system

-Estimates of percentage of mages to turn abomination in Tevinter

-Estimates of percentage of mages to turn abomination with the Dalish

-Death tolls from abominations

 

We have literally none of those things, so everyone is totally just guessing. People say things like "mages are 1% of people", or "hundreds of people died in Kirkwall", or "only 3 mages survived in the circle in Kirkwall", but we actually have no concrete idea what the real numbers are. 

 

I think that sums up pretty well what we'd need to know before stating the success or failure of any given system. A pity this is not Jade Empire and Thedas isn't based on ancient China; they did very good (for the time) census.

[Lillian]

Hmmm... I wonder if DA:I will feature many abominations... I mean, why possess when you can just waltz through whistling a little demon tune? 

[Mistic]

Hmmm... I wonder if DA:I will feature many abominations... I mean, why possess when you can just waltz through whistling a little demon tune? 

 

One of the rumours is that the Inquisitor will be an abomination. That could be a harsh discover depending on the roleplaying.

[Lillian]

One of the rumours is that the Inquisitor will be an abomination. That could be a harsh discover depending on the roleplaying.

Maybe a mage Inquisitor could become an abomination through being a Spirit Healer? If that happened with a demon... Oh my.

[Helios969]

I also cannot help but wonder if increased mage freedom and the supposed increased death toll caused by raging abominations would be greater than the war/rebellion? I think that has to be factored in as well.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I imagine abominations and red templar are both causing a lot of deaths to civilians due to the pressure on both sides, but I would say they're basically part of the war. A side effect, basically.

[Lillian]

I don't know... Veil tears make it far easier for demons and such to actually get a foothold outside. I think blood magic might spike along with red templars, but abominations seem very unlikely.