...To get a foothold in the real world. And besides, shades are the only demons to be able to really wade through the Veil, I think...
Actually, I looked on the wiki and it says you're right. Shades don't need a host. It claims that demons of other kinds need a host to survive outside the fade. The wiki also claims templars don't need lyrium to use powers, though, so it's kind of.. subject to change, I guess? Especially with the veil breaking down, it seems like things could change.
Actually, I looked on the wiki and it says you're right. Shades don't need a host. It claims that demons of other kinds need a host to survive outside the fade. The wiki also claims templars don't need lyrium to use powers, though, so it's kind of.. subject to change, I guess? Especially with the veil breaking down, it seems like things could change.
All I know is that I don't relish the thought of eventually crossing paths with a full-on pride demon...
you also miss the fact the best thing to take out an abomination is not a templar but a mage. mage's cannot only take out abominations with relative ease as long as they know the right spells. and a mage has far more vested interest in getting rid of abominations then anyone else. if theres mages everywhere theres people that can put down abominations everywhere.
That opinion is not supported by lore.
Also, how do you make sure there are enough mages everywhere?
Logic without compassion has no place in this debate, your talking about peoples lives! ALL people including the mage's. If you want to go the end of LOGICAL route your left with a single choice.
brain wash mage's and treat them like **** as the qunari do or kill all mages onsite.
the current circle system has failed time and time again, because of its very nature. It is a reflection of pure logic with very little compassion.
Quite the contrary. It has very much compassion. Which you admit yourself by saying that the qunari system is a pure logical one without compassion. And yet the Circle system is a lot better for the mages, so how can it be the same?
You are contradicting yourself.
All because of what might happen. Attempting to justify it on the basis of the greater good holds no weight to the victims or the circle system. Thats the Mages and their families, its been shown time and time again that people will not accept the security of the circles in exchange for their liberty.
And yet you expect mundanes to accept casulties and becoming victims of mages, attempting to justify it with "freedom" (a.k.a. - your greater good)?
Have you asked yourself if that argument holds weight for the people in Redcliffe? Or Blackmarsh?
no matter how many arrest's, murders, rights of annulments and forced tranquil's there are always and will always be those that yearn to be free.
And no matter how much you try to stop crime there will always be crime. So what's your point? To stop fighting because someone will resist?
Someone will ALWAYS resist.
The most important of which would be 'local forces in proximity prepared to initiate initial containment in a timely fashion' and 'environment is supportive of containment.'
...wow.
There's really no point in discussing anything with you if you're going ignore the game itself. A period of potentially several months is not 'a very little longer.' A period of potentially several months in which numerous abominations do not escape is a demonstration of containment. Well established lore, both via codex and from parts of DA2 and a long history of the Templars of an institution, showing the Templars successfully overcoming abominations is evidence that that they can do just that.
This is without the fanciful additions of your own that seem to sprinkle in so frequently- the necessity or expectation of a 'nigh impossible miracle' here, or inventing catastrophic Tevinter attrition rates without data or historical parallel, or your argument that an absence of mention of abominations in Tevinter in a very short letter (that did not mention many things about Tevinter) could constitute evidence that the issue did not exist.
I mean, there's personal interpretation in a context of a lack of information while arguing from what is known and then there's inventing conditions and ignoring established ones to justify your conclusions. That Uldred's rebellion and abomination was contained to a tower for a significant period of time before the Warden arrived is simply a fact of the lore: if someone brings up that containment as a point in and of itself, there's nothing biased about those facts. The point is the fact itself- other facts that don't challenge or add to the point do not change it. (IE, how Circle crisis is resolved doesn't change how the Circle system shapes the crisis upto the point of its resolution.)
How can anyone expect to address a rational that only selectively acknowledges the canon or the argument being made?
Well, whatever.
Pro-tip: the events of the story are the least shaky evidence of the franchise. You can argue about the interpretation, and context, but not the events themselves.
but the point here is, the templars didn't stop the out break wynn did by locking it down. in fact we're told specifically that if it wasn't for the barrier it would have been over run.
clearly mages can look after there own towers after all it was a mage who stopped the out break.
What some character thinks/believes and what is the truth are different things.
What some character thinks/believes and what is the truth are different things.
It doesn't mean it's the truth because she said it, but is there any better evidence against it?
That's a legitimate question, not an argument. I don't remember what evidence there actually was, since I haven't done the quest in ages. Was there better evidence that the templar's line was better than Wynne's barrier?
That opinion is not supported by lore.
Quite the contrary. It has very much compassion. Which you admit yourself by saying that the qunari system is a pure logical one without compassion. And yet the Circle system is a lot better for the mages, so how can it be the same?
You are contradicting yourself.
And yet you expect mundanes to accept casulties and becoming victims of mages, attempting to justify it with "freedom" (a.k.a. - your greater good)?
Have you asked yourself if that argument holds weight for the people in Redcliffe? Or Blackmarsh?
And no matter how much you try to stop crime there will always be crime. So what's your point? To stop fighting because someone will resist?
Someone will ALWAYS resist.
No i said it has very little compassion which is not open for debate, if you think the circle system is very compassionate your insane. half the **** they do isn't even required by your system of governance.
how does mages having relations pose a threat if their locked up?
how does them having kids?
Freedom is not the greater good, its an intrinsic problem you face when doing things for the greater good.
your missing an entire key point here those people are dead WITH that very system in place!
your circles didn't protect them, the system failed.
I'm arguing a new solution must be found the old one is not only cruel but ineffective.
I've already suggested self administration self determination, more freedoms for mages whilst maintaining the circles is a far better result mages still get trained in how to defend against demons, places to learn to control their gifts, they still have the circle to go back to, theres still templars to track down malficarum, the difference is that the mages are at the controls over their systems.
what it does is take away the need to rebel by delivering them intrinsic freedoms.
people in thedas still face threats from mages with the current circle system in place and we are denying freedoms. the biggest threats come from the uninitiated and those that are desperate to escape, you stop treating like a prison allow people to get married etc encourage those to go their and welcome them both these risk factors drop.
nobody will hide their kids leading to better detection rates as people know they can still have a family so don't hide it and with it being an open welcoming place people won't flee in desperation or turn to desperate measures.
in theory the circle system as is, is a good idea on paper but it has failed spectacularly in practical application.
taking a more liberal approach should be considered.
the whole point of this thread is to reach a middle ground where in there's give and take. yes there will be some risk in taking these steps but if your unwilling to give ground the war thats happening now is whats happens.
YOUR SYSTEM HAS FAILED.
but the point here is, the templars didn't stop the out break wynn did by locking it down. in fact we're told specifically that if it wasn't for the barrier it would have been over run.
clearly mages can look after there own towers after all it was a mage who stopped the out break.
First of all, all that we saw Wynne accomplish was kill a single Rage Demon. While this certainly saved the group of mages she was protecting, it does not qualify as "stopping the outbreak" because all she did was kill on measly demon and there is nothing that indicates one Rage Demon would have burst through the Templars defenses hadn't Wynne been there. Following me so far?
Second, the reason we don't think mages should "look after their own towers" is not because we believe they are incapable of doing so, it's because we doubt their willingness to do so.
The Templars, being drafted from the general population of Thedas have a vetted interest in keeping it safe; but there is nothing that guarantees mages will share that interest. A good example of this is how Orsino covered Quentin's crimes because he feared the bad publicity this would give mages; what guarantees do we have the same will not happen in the future?
First of all, all that we saw Wynne accomplish was kill a single Rage Demon. While this certainly saved the group of mages she was protecting, it does not qualify as "stopping the outbreak" because all she did was kill on measly demon and there is nothing that indicates one Rage Demon would have burst through the Templars defenses hadn't Wynne been there. Following me so far?
Second, the reason we don't think mages should "look after their own towers" is not because we believe they are incapable of doing so, it's because we doubt their willingness to do so.
The Templars, being drafted from the general population of Thedas have a vetted interest in keeping it safe; but there is nothing that guarantees mages will share that interest. A good example of this is how Orsino covered Quentin's crimes because he feared the bad publicity this would give mages; what guarantees do we have the same will not happen in the future?
I don't think he's saying that Wynne was killing enough demons to keep them from taking over. I think he means the barrier she had up may have been keeping them held back. You have to either convince her to let you through her magical seal or kill her to do the quest.
First of all, all that we saw Wynne accomplish was kill a single Rage Demon. While this certainly saved the group of mages she was protecting, it does not qualify as "stopping the outbreak" because all she did was kill on measly demon and there is nothing that indicates one Rage Demon would have burst through the Templars defenses hadn't Wynne been there. Following me so far?
Second, the reason we don't think mages should "look after their own towers" is not because we believe they are incapable of doing so, it's because we doubt their willingness to do so.
The Templars, being drafted from the general population of Thedas have a vetted interest in keeping it safe; but there is nothing that guarantees mages will share that interest. A good example of this is how Orsino covered Quentin's crimes because he feared the bad publicity this would give mages; what guarantees do we have the same will not happen in the future?
We see no demons between Wynne's barrier and the templar's door. Then upon our arrival we see her kill the first demon we encounter in the tower. Given that all the abominations and demons are on the opposite side of the barrier it's clear she and the mages there are the ones that prevented the outbreak.
This doesn't mean that the templars couldn't have prevented the outbreak. Their defenses, at least after they ran and hid behind the door, simply weren't tested as Wynne prevented the outbreak from reaching them. Given the destructive power of the demons and blood mages though I wonder why they didn't simply degrade the floor above the templar's heads and drop it on them. Even if they survived it would have been a simple matter to rain fire down on them from above.
We see no demons between Wynne's barrier and the templar's door. Then upon our arrival we see her kill the first demon we encounter in the tower. Given that all the abominations and demons are on the opposite side of the barrier it's clear she and the mages there are the ones that prevented the outbreak.
Or that the more militant demons have been given orders to wait for Uldred to finish converting the others. The barrier was never actually tested so we can not say what would have happened had, for instance, that Sloth Demon that managed to enchant Wynne and the rest of the party decided to come downstairs to see what was keeping everyone; the fact that Wynne has to kill the Rage Demon rather than it being stopped by the barrier doesn't bode well for its durability.
This doesn't mean that the templars couldn't have prevented the outbreak. Their defenses, at least after they ran and hid behind the door, simply weren't tested as Wynne prevented the outbreak from reaching them. Given the destructive power of the demons and blood mages though I wonder why they didn't simply degrade the floor above the templar's heads and drop it on them. Even if they survived it would have been a simple matter to rain fire down on them from above.
Yes.
And maybe the tower is reinforced with runes or the likes exactly for such an eventuality.
First of all, all that we saw Wynne accomplish was kill a single Rage Demon. While this certainly saved the group of mages she was protecting, it does not qualify as "stopping the outbreak" because all she did was kill on measly demon and there is nothing that indicates one Rage Demon would have burst through the Templars defenses hadn't Wynne been there. Following me so far?
Second, the reason we don't think mages should "look after their own towers" is not because we believe they are incapable of doing so, it's because we doubt their willingness to do so.
The Templars, being drafted from the general population of Thedas have a vetted interest in keeping it safe; but there is nothing that guarantees mages will share that interest. A good example of this is how Orsino covered Quentin's crimes because he feared the bad publicity this would give mages; what guarantees do we have the same will not happen in the future?
so your advocating war? really this is it. the mages Have already told you to shove the old circle system, thats why theres a mages templar war, you cannot shove the genie back in the box.
the entire reason it come to this is because people Ignored the pleas of mages for far too long there was no accepting the circles restrictions any longer. advocating for a return to the status quo is not a compromise. again the system was supposed to contain the mages, but they're not contained they're off actively fighting a war for independence.
and did you ever think the reason he was worried about bad press was because of the psycho templar ****** wanting to enact the right of annulment every ten seconds?
by your reckoning mage's should have the right to rid themselves of the templars, the abuse perpetrated by templars ranges from murder to rape. every templar has the "potential" to commit such act's they are a threat to everyone in the circle.
but let me guess, its small price to pay for the "greater good" unfortunately for you the mages didn't think so, they didn't accept it, it resulted in war.
I corrected you regarding the reasons why Pro-Templars do not want mages to be their own watchers and you started talking mantaining the status quo and the mages wanting a war. The only thing even remotely relevant in that post of yours is this:
and did you ever think the reason he was worried about bad press was because of the psycho templar ****** wanting to enact the right of annulment every ten seconds?
Ignoring for a moment Orsino covered Quentin's crimes even back in Act1 where Meredith had not yet gotten possession of the Red Lyirum and thus did not wish to Anull the Circle; the matter of fact is that a mage covered the criminal acts of another mage for Pro-mages reasons.
In Kirkwall, it was because of Meredith. Who's to say they won't always come up with reason why they won't take responsability for their actions?
What guarantees can you give that mages will actually have an interest in stopping crimes commited by mages against normal people?
We see no demons between Wynne's barrier and the templar's door. Then upon our arrival we see her kill the first demon we encounter in the tower. Given that all the abominations and demons are on the opposite side of the barrier it's clear she and the mages there are the ones that prevented the outbreak.
Or that the more militant demons have been given orders to wait for Uldred to finish converting the others. The barrier was never actually tested so we can not say what would have happened had, for instance, that Sloth Demon that managed to enchant Wynne and the rest of the party decided to come downstairs to see what was keeping everyone; the fact that Wynne has to kill the Rage Demon rather than it being stopped by the barrier doesn't bode well for its durability.
This doesn't mean that the templars couldn't have prevented the outbreak. Their defenses, at least after they ran and hid behind the door, simply weren't tested as Wynne prevented the outbreak from reaching them. Given the destructive power of the demons and blood mages though I wonder why they didn't simply degrade the floor above the templar's heads and drop it on them. Even if they survived it would have been a simple matter to rain fire down on them from above.
Yes.
And maybe the tower is reinforced with runes or the likes exactly for such an eventuality.
Not all demons, even of the same type, are equal. We don't see that demons health bar either but only that Wynne was able to bring it down with a single frost spell. You assume that the rage demon made it through the barrier with no damage.. Another person can just as well assume that the barrier did so much damage to it that it only required a little spell to bring it down. I believe it was also stated that it was Wynne keeping the demons back and we see her doing that despite the barrier's theoretical effectiveness.
For the barrier to have not been tested would mean it never came under attack. It did and we saw that Wynne's defense held even if the barrier alone didn't stop the demon. Unlike with the templars door we also begin encountering demons on the other side of Wynne's barrier. It may have not been tested against the heavy weight abominations or demons but a little testing is better then none.
The only runes I know of in the tower that repelled magic were on the basement door. So for the entire tower to be warded strikes me at least as a big maybe. I see the entire anti-magic door business as silly though. If your spells don't work within proximity of the door step back and then use them. Generate the thermal energy away from the door and send it towards it or propel something large and heavy towards it.
Not all demons, even of the same type, are equal. We don't see that demons health bar either but only that Wynne was able to bring it down with a single frost spell. You assume that the rage demon made it through the barrier with no damage.. Another person can just as well assume that the barrier did so much damage to it that it only required a little spell to bring it down. I believe it was also stated that it was Wynne keeping the demons back and we see her doing that despite the barrier's theoretical effectiveness.
For the barrier to have not been tested would mean it never came under attack. It did and we saw that Wynne's defense held even if the barrier alone didn't stop the demon. Unlike with the templars door we also begin encountering demons on the other side of Wynne's barrier. It may have not been tested against the heavy weight abominations or demons but a little testing is better then none.
The only runes I know of in the tower that repelled magic were on the basement door. So for the entire tower to be warded strikes me at least as a big maybe. I see the entire anti-magic door business as silly though. If your spells don't work within proximity of the door step back and then use them. Generate the thermal energy away from the door and send it towards it or propel something large and heavy towards it.
Second, even Tevinter uses templars and rights of annulment to deal with abominations and fallen towers.
For the latter, citation needed. For the former, Tevinter templars don't actually have antimagic abilities.
You do know we have a multitude of examples in lore, gameplay, and books of circles having rooms or doors that cancel magic.
We even have toxins that make channeling mana near impossible present within the lore.
Anti magic runes stopped being special a while ago, they are just an ill explained rarity.
We even have toxins that make channeling mana near impossible present within the lore.
Anti magic runes stopped being special a while ago, they are just an ill explained rarity.
Avernus, IIRC, created some kind of anti-demon wards in his tower in Soldier's Peak, which is why the Sophia revenant told the Warden to smash everything inside. Of course, he probably used blood magic to make them, which is why the Circles don't have them (but really probably should).
Avernus, IIRC, created some kind of anti-demon wards in his tower in Soldier's Peak, which is why the Sophia revenant told the Warden to smash everything inside. Of course, he probably used blood magic to make them, which is why the Circles don't have them (but really probably should).
Avernus is probably the most competent still living demonologist in Thedas.
Who knows what he did to achieve what he did, he spent centuries poring over lore, trucking with demons and experimenting with Warden blood and the taint.
I assume little when it comes to that man, given he explained very little of how he achieved anything.
We even have toxins that make channeling mana near impossible present within the lore.
Anti magic runes stopped being special a while ago, they are just an ill explained rarity.
Pharamond managed to create a binding circle of runes that could contain an upper level pride demon as a Tranquil. If only we could apply such methods more easily.
Pharamond managed to create a binding circle of runes that could contain an upper level pride demon as a Tranquil. If only we could apply such methods more easily.
Why would we need contain a demon?
Why would any one?
Why would we need contain a demon?
Why would any one?
Wasn't that his way of curing tranquility? I don't know, I just skimmed the wiki page...
Wasn't that his way of curing tranquility? I don't know, I just skimmed the wiki page...
Assuming that people should risk the destruction that can occur to return a mage to their abilities.
How many lives is a mage worth? I pose that question to you.
Assuming that people should risk the destruction that can occur to return a mage to their abilities.
I don't want to say several.... But I don't want to say one--- 
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