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Solution to Chantry-Templar-Mage Dynamic?


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#376
Master Warder Z_

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I don't want to say several.... But I don't want to say one---  :whistle:

 

How about over two dozen? A hundred? An Entire keep's population died giving that tranquil his magic back and he still wasn't emotionally sound nor stable enough to ward off a serious possession attempt.

 

Was the price worth it?

 

Will it be worth it in the future?

 

How many normal people have to die to turn Tranquils into mages? I just see where the mercy of tranquility is turned into a risk, a massive risk. The cure requires exposure, contact with a fade entity, Possession is almost assured in my eye.



#377
Hellion Rex

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Assuming that people should risk the destruction that can occur to return a mage to their abilities.

 

:mellow:  How many lives is a mage worth? I pose that question to you.

A single mage life is worth the same as any non mage.



#378
Master Warder Z_

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A single mage life is worth the same as any non mage.

 

Then that tranquil should have remained tranquil.

 

More then a hundred people died because of him, far more was spent then was gained by you're own admission.



#379
Xilizhra

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Then that tranquil should have remained tranquil.

 

More then a hundred people died because of him, far more was spent then was gained by you're own admission.

Only in one-for-one trading. The existence of a cure to Tranquility that undermines the templars' power base was worth quite a lot itself.


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#380
Lillian

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How about over two dozen? A hundred? An Entire keep's population died giving that tranquil his magic back and he still wasn't emotionally sound nor stable enough to ward off a serious possession attempt.

 

Was the price worth it?

 

Will it be worth it in the future?

 

How many normal people have to die to turn Tranquils into mages? I just see where the mercy of tranquility is turned into a risk, a massive risk. The cure requires exposure, contact with a fade entity, Possession is almost assured in my eye.

I'd definitely say a mage isn't worth a whole keep dying, but... Well, I... I'm just gonna stop before I dig myself into a deeper hole. @_@



#381
Master Warder Z_

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Only in one-for-one trading. The existence of a cure to Tranquility that undermines the templars' power base was worth quite a lot itself.

 

All that did was give Fiona her war, We will see where it leads her and what it gains her before we celebrate mage freedom.

 

In the end? I think Mages and their supporters may wish Lambert's offer of returning to their circles might not have been such a bad idea.


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#382
Xilizhra

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All that did was give Fiona her war, We will see where it leads her and what it gains her before we celebrate mage freedom.

 

In the end? I think Mages and their supporters may wish Lambert's offer of returning to their circles might not have been such a bad idea.

And I will guarantee you that your templar victory will not happen as planned.



#383
Master Warder Z_

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And I will guarantee you that your templar victory will not happen as planned.

 

Victory?

 

I seek no conquest nor razing of lands, I see no subjugation in restoring peace and stability, i merely want what was lost to be returned.

 

Is it victory to achieve that? I suppose in  a broad sense.

 

But it isn't victory i want.



#384
wcholcombe

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For the latter, citation needed. For the former, Tevinter templars don't actually have antimagic abilities.


Gaider states that the majority of templars are just soldiers, but some do have magic canceling powers.

The topic of Tevinter is a product of the wiki which construes Fenris' comment about templars still stepping in when mages cross the line as meaning
They possess the ROA.
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#385
Xilizhra

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Victory?

 

I seek no conquest nor razing of lands, I see no subjugation in restoring peace and stability, i merely want what was lost to be returned.

 

Is it victory to achieve that? I suppose in  a broad sense.

 

But it isn't victory i want.

Whatever it is, it won't happen as you plan it. The narrative will not have a return of the previous status quo or just a minor variation thereof; I'll bet my life on it. Perhaps it'll be inconclusive, but that still isn't the same thing.



#386
Master Warder Z_

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Whatever it is, it won't happen as you plan it. The narrative will not have a return of the previous status quo or just a minor variation thereof; I'll bet my life on it. Perhaps it'll be inconclusive, but that still isn't the same thing.

 

We will see.



#387
Lillian

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Whatever happens, it seems like drastic reformation is needed. I wouldn't suggest trying to implement an institution that was proven to have flaws.



#388
EmissaryofLies

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We will see.

 

Perhaps not. 

 

Perhaps we'll be blinded with science. 



#389
Master Warder Z_

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Whatever happens, it seems like drastic reformation is needed. I wouldn't suggest trying to implement an institution that was proven to have flaws.

 

We will see what shape that takes i suppose .


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#390
Mockingword

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Yes, okay, I think we've established that we will see. Thanks.



#391
EmissaryofLies

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I disagree. 

 

I do not think that we'll see at all. 



#392
Master Warder Z_

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I disagree. 

 

I do not think that we'll see at all. 

 

My Cat is going blind in one eye, he may not see at all.



#393
EmissaryofLies

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My Cat is going blind in one eye, he may not see at all.

 

I find that incorrigibly incorrect. 

 

The cat will be perfectly fine. Chin up, Warder. 



#394
Master Warder Z_

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I find that incorrigibly incorrect. 

 

The cat will be perfectly fine. Chin up, Warder. 

 

That seems like an oxymoron to me but what do i know about English sentence structuring...

 

And Dawn is old, very old.

 

Who knows what will happen?



#395
EmissaryofLies

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That seems like an oxymoron to me but what do i know about English sentence structuring...

 

And Dawn is old, very old.

 

Who knows what will happen?

 

I'm a sucker for alliteration, what can I say?

 

Cautious optimism is the best of all worlds. 



#396
Swoopdogg

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Amon will come and take our bending away



#397
wcholcombe

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Only in one-for-one trading. The existence of a cure to Tranquility that undermines the templars' power base was worth quite a lot itself.

Tranquility is by no means a source of the Templars power base.  Misguided though some of them may be, tranquility is by no means a source of templar power.

 

Sadly, such a cure for reversing tranquility likely died with Pharamond.



#398
wcholcombe

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It's unclear who invented the circles, all we know is when Tevinter turned to worship Andraste, the Magisters Surrendered themselves to the circle (own there own terms)

 

today the imperial towers operate very differently to towers throughout the rest of thedas,  You do not HAVE to be part of a circle there is no such requirement. in fact circle's in Tevinter are a privilege to attend, not an prison where mage's are kept indefinitely. Mage's can keep family leave when they like and in Templars answer are Protecters, they still have the rights of annulments and step in when things get out of hand, but it quite clear that it is Mage's themselves that set the rules for templars not the chantry.

 

the changes to the chant of light came AFTER the Orlesian chantry found out about the fact a Man who was also a MAGE was in charge of the imperial chantry, he needed to justify his rule. The changes were made to reflect the Idea that Mage rule was the devine word of andraste.

 

people enjoy pointing out the permitted use of blood magic in Tevinter, like slavery and the fact that for the most part the archron is a figure head rather then a leader,  But such arguments are Irrelevant, they are problems with the political system with Tevinter, not the circle in and of itself.

 

the fact is the circle system in Tevinter clearly has no issue with uprising's or abominations running wild Tevinter could not possibly have stood in the face of exalted marches, blights and invasions by the followers of the Qun if this was the case. People can speculate all the want about what might happen the fact is, magic is welcomed and indeed honoured throughout Tevinter. People don't needlessly fear magic and Mage's have as much freedom as all Freemen in Tevinter.

 

to suggest Tevinters circles breed blood magic is incorrect, Blood magic is still officially outlawed it is rampant in the upper classes due to the corrupt way Tevinter operates the upper classes are above the law.

 

the Rest of thedas is no different, The upper classes can murder and rape with immunity.

 

I'm not suggesting a mageocary like tevinter far from it, only that quite clearly Tevinter circles are much better run. your argument makes well not alot of sense I'm not asking to implement tevinters political system only the circle system. you can still ban mages from government and give them the freedoms of the circles in Tevinter at the same time.

 

the fact remains what the orlesian chantry declare about magic is superstitious and does not reflect the words of andraste it is quite clear magic must be used to help people, that doesn't equate to locking people up! and theres nothing in andrastes teaching that say's so. the chantry KNOW this but teach otherwise.

Actually no, we know that the Tevinter Magisters invented the circles first.  The Chantry copied off of them.

ACtually yes, you are required to be a member of the circle they just don't mean you are locked up in one.

Considering the Mages are the Imperial Chantry, the mages or the chantry telling the templars what to do is the same thing.

The changes to the chant came before the black divine. The changes were actually made within a few generations of Tevinter converting to Andrastianism.  They reflect the cultural difference between Tevinter and southern Thedas.  Tevinter heros are all mages and the entire society is built on magic.  For a generation or two the mages were not allowed to be in the clergy or hold power, but that quickly no longer became the case.

Actually the Imperial chantry considers Andraste 3rd behind the Maker and the Archon who converted them to andraste.  It has nothing to do with making it divine.

If the black divine and all magisters in Tevinter pretty much practice blood magic, it is an issue for the Imperial chantry considering their very religious leader practices something his own religion bans-that is the imperial chantry.

The fact that they have templars and rights of annulment(your own word) indicates that abominations are still an issue in Tevinter.

Actually Mages and their families are basically the only freemen in Tevinter. If you don't come from a mage family you can't hold political office or positions of leadership in the Imperial Chantry.  Nor can you be the black divine as he is always chosen from among the 1st enchanters of the circles.

No, Blood magic is practiced in the pursuit of power and because most tenvinter heros used blood magic. It is a cultural thing.  That doesn't excuse it.

 

ACtually we have no idea on what the actual teachings of Andraste were. We know the chant of light which both the imperial chantry and the orlesian chantry originally had the same way.  All evidence we currently have leads us annectodotally to believe that that is the correct interpretation.

 

 

And considering it has been 900 or so years since Andraste and the founding of the chantry that occurred after her death, I am fairly certain the Chantry is no longer aware of a coverup if there is one.  The current divine and revered mothers have as much knowledge of the early chantry as I do the private musings of William Duke of Normandy.

 

The World of Thedas is a good read. You should pick it up.


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#399
The Baconer

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For a generation or two the mages were not allowed to be in the clergy or hold power, but that quickly no longer became the case.

 

Mages were never actually barred from the Magisterium.



#400
wcholcombe

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Mages were never actually barred from the Magisterium.


My post was referring to chantry power.