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Solution to Chantry-Templar-Mage Dynamic?


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#26
dragonflight288

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A circle overseen by enchanters who both train their apprentices and slay them in case they became abominations would be better than the templars. Which is what happens in ferelden if you ask for the circle's independence. Let the mages rule themselves.

They need better training. The warden and Hawke are both results of strong willpower and good training, which the circle of Kirkwall didn't provide. Also, setting up circles in areas where the veil is thin isn't a mart move. Smaller circles in safe, stable areas would be an improvement.

 

Until DA2 where Meredith gets on Alistair's case for trying and how it's revealed that the Chantry decided to overrule the monarch of Ferelden by dictating what they can and can't do with mages. 



#27
naddaya

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Until DA2 where Meredith gets on Alistair's case for trying and how it's revealed that the Chantry decided to overrule the monarch of Ferelden by dictating what they can and can't do with mages. 

 

I put Anora on the throne, so I missed that part. Meredith was already pretty nuts in Act 3 anyway. Not that I blame her, every mage seemed to be a crazy mass-murdering maleficar in kirkwall. And that's exactly why keeping a circle in Kirkwall is idiotic. The veil is thin there, and everybody knows it. Even if the templars refused such compromise, moving the circle would at least decrease the number of abominations. Ferelden's circle wasn't that bad with the templars(until uldred that is), even if the veil was thin there too. They actually trained the apprentices, while in Kirkwall they're just shut in cells without being taught how to control they mind and powers.



#28
Xilizhra

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Three possibilities.

 

1. The Circle remains somewhat similar to now, but manages itself and controls larger patches of land on which nonmages can live, primarily the families of mages, who'll provide their own skills to the economic health of the Circle. Any templars will be independent of the Chantry and secular, in addition to not having explicit power to decide policy.

2. The Circle returns to the Chantry, but the templars remain secularized, and mages are free to leave the Circle to join the Chantry itself in any positions it may have open, including the Divine, thus giving them representation in their own government (really, since the Chantry doesn't govern anyone aside from mages, all of the Chantry's leaders should be mages, but I'm willing to compromise for now).

3. Tevinter-style magocracy without slavery.



#29
Jaison1986

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I have an proposition I dare say is pretty resonable. It would be making fully autonomous circles free of Chantry oversight, policed by the mages themselves. Family visits would be allowed, and also temporary leave for mages who completed their training. The mages would be forbidden of involving themselves in politics entirely, jeopardizing any claims from the Chantry that free mages would take charge and become the new Tevinter. They would respect the laws of the land and would answer directly to the crown in case any issue were to rise up.

 

So long as the mages don't involve themselves in politics, I don't see how freeing them from the Chantry would be an problem. 



#30
Inprea

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Three possibilities.

 

1. The Circle remains somewhat similar to now, but manages itself and controls larger patches of land on which nonmages can live, primarily the families of mages, who'll provide their own skills to the economic health of the Circle. Any templars will be independent of the Chantry and secular, in addition to not having explicit power to decide policy.

2. The Circle returns to the Chantry, but the templars remain secularized, and mages are free to leave the Circle to join the Chantry itself in any positions it may have open, including the Divine, thus giving them representation in their own government (really, since the Chantry doesn't govern anyone aside from mages, all of the Chantry's leaders should be mages, but I'm willing to compromise for now).

3. Tevinter-style magocracy without slavery.

 

I believe 1 could be quite amusing though not due to mage freedom. If it was economically successful and the families benefited from the mage's magic I can see others wanting to come and live there.

 

Two families setting and talking one lives near the tower. One family talks about having to bury two of their children in one year due to sickness. It happened. While the other talks about the nice red haired mage that comes into town three times a week and heals people. That or how the mages conjured water whenever the rains were late or perhaps used entropy to help decompose some of the harsher chemicals in the soil to make it better suited for planting. If the mages did a good enough job of helping the town prosper they'd have to chase new comers out eventually.



#31
Inprea

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I have an proposition I dare say is pretty resonable. It would be making fully autonomous circles free of Chantry oversight, policed by the mages themselves. Family visits would be allowed, and also temporary leave for mages who completed their training. The mages would be forbidden of involving themselves in politics entirely, jeopardizing any claims from the Chantry that free mages would take charge and become the new Tevinter. They would respect the laws of the land and would answer directly to the crown in case any issue were to rise up.

 

So long as the mages don't involve themselves in politics, I don't see how freeing them from the Chantry would be an problem. 

 

Can you have money and goods without involving yourself in politics? Even if you don't mean to if you have a lot of money or power you're going to change the political landscape. Well that's my believe.



#32
dragonflight288

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Can you have money and goods without involving yourself in politics? Even if you don't mean to if you have a lot of money or power you're going to change the political landscape. Well that's my believe.

 

This is true. Political decisions are often based on not pissing off the people who have the resources. Even if these communities remained uninvolved with the Ladsmeet in Ferelden or whatever, the nobles at the Landsmeet would either make decisions to seize those assets, or try to work with them in an alliance of some sort within their country to bolster their own holdings. 



#33
Dean_the_Young

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Commerce can be separated from politics, but it is difficult. It usually requires a different sort of suppression, but there's plenty of historical precedent in which political elites crushed and dominated the commercial interests rather than the the commercial elite becoming dominant.

 

 

As for the idea of a 'solution' to the current triad, that won't be possible as long as they have different end-goals and priorities. Keeping mages segregated from mundane society (mages as a public risk) and power centers (mages as a political risk) are extremely contradictory to desires for mage integration and free mobility through the same. Likewise when the proposals of one target and undermine the means of the other: Mages who want to be free of Templar controls aren't going to want to submit to any sort of rigourous checkup or tracking system outside of the Circles, and non-mages who are concerned about Mages controlling the terms of their own containment won't have any reason to accept Mages freely entering and taking power in the oversight institutions.

 

Then there are the demands of players which have no real equivalent backing in the setting itself. Demands that the Templars be secularized... really don't solve anything while causing serious issues in implementation. It's not much more than a hobby horse for people opposed to organized religion as an institution in general, especially filling in for what is effectively a secular security issue. There's a common theme that without Chantry propoganda everyone would love the Mages or some such, even though everything the Templars do, and more that they don't, can easily be rationalized as on secular grounds, and frequently is.


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#34
Xilizhra

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Then there are the demands of players which have no real equivalent backing in the setting itself. Demands that the Templars be secularized... really don't solve anything while causing serious issues in implementation. It's not much more than a hobby horse for people opposed to organized religion as an institution in general, especially filling in for what is effectively a secular security issue. There's a common theme that without Chantry propoganda everyone would love the Mages or some such, even though everything the Templars do, and more that they don't, can easily be rationalized as on secular grounds, and frequently is.

It's a matter of attitude and perception of the watchers. Alrik's atrocities were all, if you read what he wrote, based on his interpretation of Andrastian doctrine, and then we have lines like Cullen saying that templars have dominance over mages by divine right. Even if it changes little in the letter of their duties, it should have some effect on their spirit and how they're implemented.


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#35
Iakus

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Something akin to what Archon Hessarian attempted to reform the Tevinter Imperium into might be interesting.



#36
Dean_the_Young

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It's a matter of attitude and perception of the watchers. Alrik's atrocities were all, if you read what he wrote, based on his interpretation of Andrastian doctrine, and then we have lines like Cullen saying that templars have dominance over mages by divine right. Even if it changes little in the letter of their duties, it should have some effect on their spirit and how they're implemented.

 

Wow, it's almost like I said.

 

 

There's a common theme that without Chantry propoganda everyone would love the Mages or some such, even though everything the Templars do, and more that they don't, can easily be rationalized as on secular grounds, and frequently is.

 

Which you aren't even challenging. And for good reason- we have a whole Soviet Union and 20th century Red China to pick at for examples of secular-based extremism and sadism, far in excess of what the Templars have done.

 

It's almost like taking the religion rationalizations away from people doesn't stop them from being able to rationalize being assholes.



#37
DrBlingzle

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A poll I made in the old BSN (http://social.biowar...23/polls/47758/) shows that actually most people (who voted on the poll anyway) don't want an extreme solution, simply a slightly more liberal version of the circle system. Its certainly what I want to achieve in DAI. Mildly pro-mage moderate, and proud of it  :D.  


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#38
Lulupab

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A poll I made in the old BSN (http://social.biowar...23/polls/47758/) shows that actually most people (who voted on the poll anyway) don't want an extreme solution, simply a slightly more liberal version of the circle system. Its certainly what I want to achieve in DAI. Mildly pro-mage moderate, and proud of it  :D.  

 

What about a drink? I share the same views   ;)


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#39
DrBlingzle

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I think the reason why it seems that moderates are outnumbered is because extremists tend to be much more vocal on the forums. I agree with Natashina, we need a group.


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#40
Inprea

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A poll I made in the old BSN (http://social.biowar...23/polls/47758/) shows that actually most people (who voted on the poll anyway) don't want an extreme solution, simply a slightly more liberal version of the circle system. Its certainly what I want to achieve in DAI. Mildly pro-mage moderate, and proud of it  :D.  

 

I looked at some other poles in the past and they always looked a little more pro-mage or giving mages more rights but I didn't expect things to be quite so lopsided. I'm sure everyone has an idea of what additional freedom or rights means but it's nice to see many agree that the current circle system went too far.

 

If Bioware would forbid those of us that have been arguing about the templar/mage issue for over a year from commenting on it it'd quiet things down a lot. I may be wrong but it seems like many of the post are from the same people saying the same things and putting forth their own values as fact for months now. The first time I went away from the forum for about two months and came back to see the same people arguing the same things my first thought was how could they still be at it? Is this really so important to them or do they just have that little to do?


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#41
Jack Druthers

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I'd like to say that I am really hoping this thread  provides a place where various constructive ideas can be proposed and discussed and how they would be implemented, and what the ramifications would be, and it doesn't turn into a mage/templar head butting contest.  So thanks OP for opening it.

 

I did like the Isolationist idea at first too, though my initial reaction was that you cannot understand something if you lock it away or segregate it.  I think we need more information, to judge whether a self imposed exile is an answer, because it seems to mirror the same outlook as the Dragon cultists.

A quote from WOT and the codex: "mages who  believe their gifts are dangerous and preach withdrawal to remote territories in extreme cases and seek to avoid conflicts with non-mages.  They wish to separate themselves from the Templars, the Chantry and even civilization altogether, both in order to practice magic without scrutiny and to ensure their powers do not negatively affect "ordinary" folk. Niall is the only Isolationist seen thus far, though he merely sympathized and did not consider himself one of them."

 

The veil strength would have to be considered in whatever ideas were proposed.  So there must be places in Thedas where this can happen.  Which leads to the repairing if possible of the weak points in it.  We have seen it can be done with small tears in the BlackMarsh so it is doable.  I agree with inprea regarding the abomination issue.  Another problem as I see it, is the lack of understanding about Spirits/Demons which would involve research and we know how risky such undertakings are.

 

Three possibilities.

 

1. The Circle remains somewhat similar to now, but manages itself and controls larger patches of land on which nonmages can live, primarily the families of mages, who'll provide their own skills to the economic health of the Circle. Any templars will be independent of the Chantry and secular, in addition to not having explicit power to decide policy.

 

2. The Circle returns to the Chantry, but the templars remain secularized, and mages are free to leave the Circle to join the Chantry itself in any positions it may have open, including the Divine, thus giving them representation in their own government (really, since the Chantry doesn't govern anyone aside from mages, all of the Chantry's leaders should be mages, but I'm willing to compromise for now).

 

3. Tevinter-style magocracy without slavery.

 

1. This is a good idea, but you still have the problem of the centuries fear that have been instilled into the populace,  even some family members are frightened of  the thought of  their relation having magical abilities, how would those fears and superstitions be allayed enough to work in conjunction with this idea?  Then there is how best to come to an agreement  with the Chantry, and ideally have like-minded Templars  to assist with this and still show that there is still some policing involved to reassure people.

2. I'm reading this to mean a loyalist type idea.  Though I cannot see how the Chantry would agree to all the leaders being mages, there would surely have to be at  least a 50/50 split of responsibility, which might have to be watered down further to include other parties, maybe the nobility, to keep a line of communication open.

3.  A magocracy would be difficult to maintain and still have the trust of the people when there is so much bad press, added to that the lack of understanding  and information about Tevinter.

 

Rebuilding trade routes and establishing a viable economy especially post Blight might bring mages into a better light with people, but there might be a need to police this too to avoid any accusations of corruption.  You have the added bonus that because not all mages are human, different races might be be able to relate to them better.

 

Another good idea that has been put forward is using magic to repair damage to blighted ground and maybe reclaim deserts to increase crop productivity, which improve the lives of many. Then there's the proposal of healers be available to all which would seem simple enough, given that with all the events in Kirkwall people were still willing to go to Anders' clinic.

 

All these ideas show that no matter what path a mage took in their training, they could still use those talents in various ways, losing the servant type role of the past and gaining a  more positive view of mages by these achievements . Not only to improve the lives of the population, but improve the country as a whole.  


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#42
Dean_the_Young

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As my half-hearted attempt to be productive-

 

Any attempt to find a solution to the Chantry-Mage-Templar issue should identify what the end-states of the solution should actually be. The point of reforms of the Circle system isn't to preserve the Circle system: that's just tautological reasoning from an organizational perspective, an institution that exists to perpetuate the institution. If that's all there was to it, then there wouldn't be a point to it.

 

Then, and only then, once the institutional goals have been identified should policy changes be made. Policy changes should fulfill, and not subvert, the end-state: a system that seeks to at least register and track the mages, for example, should not have a policy of refusing to use phylacteries. This no more furthers the goal than an education regime that allows anyone to leave it before passing.

 

After that, ways to safeguard the system and keep it from changing will be needed. This means identifying weaknesses in the proposed changes, and seeing if they can be mitigated or subverted by the actions of hostile actors. Enduring institutions are planned on the expectation that people will defy them, not on the expectation that no one will have reason to defy them. If your great idea's solution to the Anders Delimma (someone who steadfastly believes it fundamentally wrong and will work to tear it down and radicalize people against it) is 'Anders wouldn't mind my system,' try again.

 

 

That's the basic helpful guidelines for creating a system. As an example, I'll do an analysis of the current system: not advocacy, but rather looking at what it attempts to do. The merits or justification are not the point of the analysis.

 

 

 

The Andrastian Circle System has four main goals: to prevent the rise of another mageocracy, to protect the mundanes from deliberate mage abuses, to protect everyone from accidental mage abuses (abominations), and to protect the mages from mundanes (lunch mobs and mass fear).

 

With the compromise that established the Circles, the agreed upon means of achieving these goals is societal segregation. Mages stay over here, mundanes over here, the division is mediated and enforced by the Chantry (with its enforcement arm of the Templars), which represented the most respected international institution for the participating land-rulers. While mundanes face some basic but largely weightless restrictions (kingdoms can not use the mages as national resources, mundanes can not access the towers and the mages at will), most of enforcement of the segregation comes by bringing outside mages into the Circles (apostates) and keeping those already in the Circle from leaving at will.

 

Each of the main goals has a general policy associated with achieving it, though the policies overlap and reinforce eachother. There are problems with them, but also attempted compromise solutions. Not all of these work.

 

 

Preventing the rise of a mageocracy comes via political disenfranchisement and separation from the secular power structures. Mages, who have both advantages in competitive advancement (magic advantages) and the ability to outright control political elites (blood magic) are kept out of not just the ruling class, but out of the classes that can access and reach the ruling classes. Societal segregation as a broad stroke.

 

The obvious issue with this is, well, mage organization and self-determination. Mages chose to go to the Circles originally, that doesn't mean they wanted to give up all rights and influence.

 

The attempted compromise of the Circle is in-Circle mage autonomy, in which the day-to-day management and direction of the mages is run by the mages, and an exception system in which court mages can advise national leadership and present their views and concerns. Similarly, mages can appeal to the Chantry over the Templars. Mages are not allowed to break the overall policies and restrictions of the Circle system (autonomy not meaning self-determination), but the Templars watch, not direct, Circle activities.

 

 

Protecting mundanes from hostile mages is a requirement that requires proactive, not reactive, policies. Chasing after an apostate after he kills people and flees the area is at best avenging the lost, not preventing them from being lost in the first place- this is the focus of the current system that bears remembering. Prevention, not reaction. Short of time-travel and future foresight, social division is the only reliable proactive approach to prevent such a clash. When mages are known, they are to come or be brought to the Circle and separated from the public. Once removed from the public, a mage can not harm the public.

 

The issue here is that mages appear outside of the circle naturally: maintaining a social division is reactive and can only be maintained by constant effort. Moreover, some people will defy the Circle and be those hostile maleficar for their own interests.

 

The reaction/solution to this is the Templars as a permanent expeditionary force. As much as they can they proactively go out looking for newly-manifesting mages to bring them in as soon as possible, while confronting maleficar as they are identified.

 

 

 

Accidental mage abuses comes in two parts: reckless/accidental usage of magic, and abominations. Both mages and mundanes are at danger to these.

 

For reckless/accidental magic, the danger can primarily be mitigated (though never completely resolved) by magical education. Practice, supervision, and education can remove much of the risk associated with uncontrolled magic: once a mage reaches maturity, accidental magical mishaps appear rare. Failed experiments or other issues may cause disaster, but these are failures of deliberate attempts.

 

For abominations, however, education can only reduce, not resolve, the risk. The source of abominations, demons, have no known or proven counter or means to eliminate, while the personal weakness that leads to an abomination is as simple as stress- an unavoidable circumstance that no system or training can remove. Very experienced mages can fall to insanity, made all the riskier by the fact that demons are deliberate actors. Though there are factors that increase the risk, there are no known factors that remove the risk: even seemingly benevolent spirits can be dangerous and drive the subject to insanity. To make things worse, there is very little preventing someone who wishes to become an abomination from becoming one: personal state of mind is the primary barrier, and it is not reliable on a system scale. Only exceptional people, as shown by exceptional accomplishments and experience, have both the chance and demonstration of will to handle extreme stresses.

 

For this, the mitigation for damage is containment. Education serves a role in reducing the occurrences, but education does not prevent the occurrences from happening. Abominations are something that are responded to, and the costs of the response will be proportional to the time it takes an armed response to overwhelm it. In rural settings, the cost to mundanes can be high double digits from a single abomination, as response is some time away. When the response is right down the hall, even an entire tower of abominations can be contained from harming mundanes.

 

The only way to minimize response time is to have the response force on standby- the only feasible way for that is the concentration of mages. Segregation isn't required for mitigation, but it synergizes very easily with it.

 

 

 

Protecting mages from mundanes is the less noted but one of the original basis for the Circle. The social segregation achieves this in two main forms: protection from mundane mobs, and protection from mundane elites.

 

The mobs is easiest, and shares with the protection of the mundanes from the mages. Separation is enforced: mages can not leave the Towers freely, but mundanes can not approach it either. Whether mundanes would want to approach a mage settlement is a question... but when mages were unorganized and still individuals, a mob overwhelming them was a real threat. Now moats, thick walls, and a small army stand between them.

 

Protection from mundane elites is less realized. Mages are potential assets, but also potential threats to the leaders of nations. The mage that heals your sick masses could also be an agitator and attempt to be a political rival... but unlike mobs, elites can gather the forces to overwhelm them anyway. But the mages are extremely difficult political targets due to the Chantry and Templar's military and political interference, and the Circle's role under the Chantry (itself a largely neutral body) keeps it out of national and international politics as a faction to be sided with, or against.

 

 

 

So, in wrap-up, the Circle has four main goals, all of which are largely met by enforcing systemic segregation between mages and mundanes. But how to keep it up?

 

The dilemma of who will keep the system is running with three main issues: the enforcers need the resources to support it, the legitimacy to run it on an international level, and an enduring, not circumstantial, interest in maintaining it rather than sabotaging it. A backer lacking in any of these will not be an enduring backer. At the time of its creation, the only backer capable of creating it was the Chantry.

 

 

For resources, the Chantry has a number of pillars of support. The alliance with the Orlesian Empire, the largest secular power in south-western Thedas, is a strong backer, but the support (and possible tithes) from all the Andreastian nations is relevant. Popular support and donations from the faithful. And, of course, a monopoly on the lyrium trade. No other organization in Thedas has as many revenue sources. One of the greatest restrictions of making an alternative Circle system will be 'who can afford it?'

 

For legitimacy, in history it has frequently been a matter of race, religion, or ideology. There is no unified racial actor interested and able to act across Thedas: the Dalish have a presence, but an antagonistic and xenophobic relationship with everyone else. They don't want to, and probably wouldn't be trusted. Similarly, there is a lack of a widespread ideology to unite nations in this manner: the closest is the Qun, which is a localized state-actor in its own right. The Grey Wardens, which are an international institution with an ideological bent, have an ideology fixated on the Darkspawn and have other issues that make using them as backers problematic. Which leaves religion, and the Chantry- the only institution in existence that (a) is supported by everyone enough to run such a system, and (B) actually exists. This is the big issue with trying to secularize the Circle system and divorce it from the Chantry: there isn't a secular organization who can both afford and be respected to run the system.

 

As for maintaining the system as it is, this is where an enforcer organization dominated or even heavily influenced by mages runs into issues. The systems works on societal segregation: that onus is felt most by the mages, who have the greatest interest in dismantling it- they have a collective interest in weakening, not maintaining, the policies that meet the goals of the system. Mundanes, who have the most interest in the goals of the system (which protect them and their ability to claim power and political dominance), are the more reliable group to pull from. Even the sub-group to enforce it, however, will need incentives to keep the system running rather than be bribed or bullied into giving it up: those incentives crudely but practically include the monopoly of influence of letting nations request mages for various purposes, as well as a justification for the lyrium monopoly. A system that has a vested benefit in the status quo is one that can be relied upon to maintain it- morality or ethics alone can not.

 

 

 

So, crude and illiberal as it is, the Circle system has points to it- goals to be met, and means to meet them.

 

But- and here's where criticism and reform of the current system can come into play- not everything the Circle system does advances or is necessary for that goal. The system provides unintended benefits, and unnecessary costs. It does things it doesn't strictly need to do, for good and ill, and doesn't do things that it could stand to benefit from.

 

 

 

Here are system aspects that are not key points of the system, but aspects of it that bear consideration for good and ill.

 

-Apolitical mages in the established poltical system. Under the Circle system, mages are not effectively tools of the state, and are not used in international (or intranational) conflicts as such. This is a benefit of an international Circle system run by an international institution, rather than a nationalized Circle system run by the states. Being drawn into secular conflicts is also a significant risk of the mage independence movement, especially if they achieve independence via the support of national units.

 

-Non-magical secular education. It's... technically irrelevant to the sort of education mages need to resist demons. Literacy, liberal education, critical thinking: these are productive ways to address the need of education, but strictly not necessary. Mages are an educated populace, literate and aware of the world, in excess to not only the mundane norms, but also the system's own needs.

 

-A unified mage polity. While a mage identity would exist regardless, a mage polity is not as inherent: mages can be divided against eachother and less unified as a political class, as we infer from the Avaar barbarian shaaman and the Rivain seers (where the female mages are a part of a matriarchy, but male mages are not). The consolidation and organization of the Circles has permitted the rise of the mage fraternities, and the autonomy of the Circles has provided the Circles as a mage polity in and of itself. This was not necessary: the Chantry and Templars could have actively divided and pitted the mages against eachother, sabotaging unity and common identity.

 

-Organized magical research. The fields of mage magic and research, while limited and regulated in various degrees, is an accomplishment of the Circle systems that is not actually necessary for its goals. Past a point, further magical knowledge does not secure protection from demons or protect mundanes or mages from eachother. It just further enables the practice of magic. Allowing this is not a given: an alternative Circle system could destroy books and records and not only limit but roll back magical practice and rituals that empower mages.

 

-The rise of anti-magic fields of study. Templar abilities, Tranquility, and some anti-magic magics: these are not a norm, these were developments pursued and sustained by the Andrastian Circle system. They do not have known equivalents in other systems: the Tevinter mages even keep their Templar enforcers from developing and maintaining the lyrium-based anti-magic abilities. With the possible endpoint of advancing the Tranquility ritual to strip magic while leaving emotion, the Circle system has also seen the establishment of this field of supernatural anti-supernatural.

 

 

 

 

Here are some things the Circle system does that don't really benefit it. Consider it my list of reforms that would be both reasonable to demand and not detrimental to implement (within the scopes of the system).

 

-Disregarding the emotional health of the mages and mundanes. The Circle's security focus has left a blind spot to the human (and elven) element of mages. Anti-abomination education is focused on discipline and suppressing emotions: far less attention is given to helping mages become emotionally mature and able to cope with stress. The Circle and Templars own needless additions to the stress are likewise counterproductive.

 

For emotional relationships, there is an actual basis for opposing them. Strong emotional ties are an effective leverage against the primary defense against demons, the individual mind. Desire demons in particular can prey on emotional wants and ties, especially when the demon can offer something to protect or fulfill that relationship. Emotional ties outside the Circle are also an issue: outside ties are a basis for wanting escape and and support network for achieving it. For a system based on social segregation, the fewer ties between the groups the better (and this includes family ties).

 

But total emotional suppression, besides being unhealthy, is also unnecessary. It's throwing the baby out with the bath water: mages should be encouraged to form emotional ties inside the Circle, to support and help them there. It's a moral and practical boon: morally it can allow meaningful relationships, and practically the more ties the mage has in the system the more ties will keep them there. One of the interesting aspects of people living in authoritarian regimes is why they don't leave: friends and family are often a cause, and if a person can't take them on the escape they often won't. This isn't just friendship, but also love: families can be enabled and allowed in the Circle system, and I would even go so far as saying that bringing families from outside the system in (if they want) could also be managed and encouraged to help fulfill mage's emotional needs.

 

This isn't unlimited, mind you- and some of the policy implementations of maintaining the social division by keeping the mage families inside the system may frustrate those wanting more and more freedom- but the point is that mage families are compatible with the goals of the system.

 

 

Ah, but I dropped a line about the mundanes didn't I? What was that? Well, the Circle system's fixation of mental discipline, rather than mental health, has also left it a signficant issue in recognizing mental un-health. Demons are to blame for that as well, in part, but Thedas has no real comprehension of mental disorders: as far as they are aware, there are normal minds, and there are demons. Disturbed people, like the Magister's Son in DA2 (the seriel killer) have no help or understanding: they are deemed depraved, not even lunatics, because they have no demons to blame. Mundanes with real issues can not get the help they need, or even be recognized as needing it, because the cultural understanding of mental troubles is 'a strong will prevents problems.'

 

The field of psychology is one Thedas really, desperatly needs, for everyone. Mundanes will benefit. Mages will benefit. Demonologists and studies of the Fadewould probably benefit as well. But no one even recognizes the need because of the current fixation.

 

 

 

-Having the Templars constantly watching inside the Circle.

 

This is probably the most common and disconcerting role of the Templars in the system. It's also one of the least efficient aspects, and I say that as a very cynical person who knows something about surveillance states and how they can work.

 

Templar observation really doesn't do much. Not in terms of what it's supposed to: Templars aren't omnipresent enough to catch and track all the happenings, aren't effective enough to prevent the subterfuge and achievement, and almost certainly aren't trained enough to spot what they actually need to: signs of emotional volatility and instability. That field simply doesn't exist in Thedas, related to psychology. Recognizing issues is intuitive, not meticulous, and the fact that the Templars themselves are a source of anxiety and stress will only needlessly muddle the analysis.

 

Templars don't need to be in full battle-rattle in every room to do what they actualy do do effectively: respond to abominations. The Templar in the room is extremely unlikely to be able to prevent the abomination, or end it then and there. That's what a squad of guards down the hall, and a garrison on the ground, can do.

 

Templar observation should be smart. Observers should appear casual, not dressed to kill. They should try to put the room at ease. They should be approachable, though not friendly: there to make sure teachers are sticking to the approved lessons, that sedition isn't being raised vocally, that no one is preparing ambushes and barricades in the halls, and most of all just to get a feel for the public discourse and tone of the groups. And for Andraste's sake, no need to have them spying on the dorms or in their bed rooms.

 

That's what secret passageways behind the walls and peepholes can be used for, after all.

 

More seriously, overt observation is of limited usefulness. Covert observation is where it's at. Get listening devices. Get spies. And definitely get snitches- there should be so many snitches that you should never fear a group of seven mages huddled in a corner talking quietly because at least two of them should be yours.

 

Hey, if you're going to run a surveillance state, at least run an effective one. The less intrusive means are often the most effective.

 

 

 

 

-Cramped buildings with no outdoors.

 

The art of architecture is legit: building design can affect the attitudes and mental states of people, as can the availability of sunlight and sky. Circles should be tailor-made to be living areas that contain people, not containment centers that people live in. A good Circle should resemble a university campus, not a prison: dorms, grass lawns, exercise areas, water sources, avenues to walk and socialize, dedicated buildings so that your experiments in fireballs aren't being done right above the student dormitories.

 

Mind you, this would be expensive- the better, the more the mages would have to chip in. And it would still be a restricted area that is almost a military garrison as well: don't be surprised if the big courtyard is surrounded, if not by buildings, but impassible walls and guards with bows pointed inward.

 

But an restrictive environment doesn't need to feel like an oppressive environment- some people won't care if it's a nice cage, but more people will accept the gilded one. That works for keeping the system intact.


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#43
Helios969

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Some good stuff being thrown around. 

 

Here's my thought.  Keep the existing system but radically modify it.  No more Templar oversight as jailers or mage hunting.  The circle governs themselves, however they do not exist separate or isolated from the Templars or Chantry.  I liked the idea proposed early by Enchant_m3nt about setting up schools.  Teachers would come from Circle, Templar order, and Chantry.  They could learn to appropriately and safely harness their magic as well as learn about ethics and the moral obligations that come with wielding such power.  Once they reach age they have to fulfill a 3 year obligation - 1 year spent working within each organization so each group is getting maximum exposure to as many different types of people as possible from one anothers' groups.  Hopefully more friendships across the ranks form, but in lieu of that it will make it more difficult for the few bad seeds to sow discontent in the ranks.

 

For the larger system each group has regional representation to make policing more collaborative.  If a particular area (e.g. Kirkwall) shows repeated abuses these organizations collectively come in to stamp it out.  Everyone knows what is at stake (especially the mages.)  Make it more a governing body where consensus has to be reached rather than consolidating power into the hands of a few.  Checks and balances would have to be put in place, laws written, but that might work.  At least for a while.

 

Not sure how to handle apostates.  Undoubtedly there would still be some.  Maybe because of proximity (Morrigan in the Wilds,) maybe because they reject any oversight at all.


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#44
Jack Druthers

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Would it be practical to take your suggestion further, as in after the 3 year obligation, post these people to a  village or town, where there are established healers, and teachers, and for the want of a better word, reclamation teams.  These are people who are have been through the same training that you suggest and are integrated into the local community.  As an example, instead of having the lone Tranquil mage in Denerim running The Wonders of Thedas, use that building for the purpose of healing and having classes etc.  If say, someone wanted to drain some marsh land or clear a wooded area to make fields and turn it into agricultural land, they could go there and apply for the work to done.  Applications would not automatically be granted, but would go to the governing body that you suggested.

 

These people would also be trained to detect children who had magical abilities and help them, so there would be no cases like Wynne and what she had to face when she was a child. The fear of realising a child had these capabilities would surely be lessened.

 

If such foundation type places existed then the scenario that Morrigan described where a Chasind  man who accused her of being a witch and then was arrested and executed would never have arisen.  If apostates were shown that there were more pros than cons to reveal themselves, they might.  

 

I'm still having problems on the subject of Harrowings.  Would they still be needed and if so, what is the best way?



#45
Helios969

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Jack:  Absolutely, yes!  I was thinking along the same lines after I posted.  Establishment of things like "free clinics" and "habitat for humanity" as a way for common people to see mages as positive members of society rather than something mysterious and dangerous to be feared.  Despite my feelings toward Anders his clinic in Darktown created a lot of goodwill among the Fereldan refugees.


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#46
Sir DeLoria

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I was actually very unhappy with the ending of DA2, because I honestly wanted to fight neither. At the end of the day, I always chose to fight for the Templars(even when playing a mage), because the Kirkwall circle had just fallen too deep already.

#47
EmissaryofLies

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I was actually very unhappy with the ending of DA2, because I honestly wanted to fight neither. At the end of the day, I always chose to fight for the Templars(even when playing a mage), because the Kirkwall circle had just fallen too deep already.


Whilst I'd break my neck to crack a few of the templar's, by this point in the game I was honestly fed up with Kirkwall. I never regret taking the mages' side and will everytime. However, Kirkwall is a blight on Thedas' soil. As I heard it once said, it is 'the city of unending evil'.

Kirkwall deserved to be left unto its fate.



#48
DontWakeTheBear

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Hmm, I actually had a thread similar to this called a Circle Alternative, it became a war between the pro mages and anti mages and got deleted, which is a shame because I really didn't have a copy of my plan, but here's what I remember:

 

 
When the Mage/Templar war comes to an end there can only be several outcomes:
1: Mages get their freedom and are no longer confined by the Chantry.
2: The Templar's succeed against the Mages and the mages are either killed, made tranquil, or become subservient to the Templar's.
3: Some form of the Circle is reformed under different conditions.
 
If the third outcome is the one chosen then something will have to be done to satisfy both sides: the mages have more freedom, while the Templar's are sure of security.
 
 
My alternative is this: when a child is found to have magic they are taken to a Circle of Magi. They train under the instruction of willing Mages and under the watch of vigilant Templar's. When the apprentices primary instructor feels they're ready, they are presented with a three step trial by the First Enchanter and Knight Commander instead of the traditional Harrowing. The individual trials would be slight different each time, but would test the apprentice's strength in magic in which they prove they have the strength to leave the tower (it would be display of their combat skills, their healing skills, or whatever magic talent they focused on), the apprentice's knowledge of magic which would show if they had marketable skills once they were out of the tower, and the apprentice's discipline with magic (knowing when to or not use magic and to use it for the right reasons) the last being the most important and most secret and the reason their let out of the tower (the trial itself would focus on their weaknesses, pushing them to their moral and ethical limits). If the apprentice passes all three trials, they are pronounced a full Mage and are permitted to leave the tower and make a life for themselves or stay and Mentor others. However, if the apprentice fails, one of several things would happen:
1. If the failure is during the first or second trial, then they merely have to resume studying until their mentor believes they're more prepared.
2. If the failure happens during the third trial as a result of immaturity, then training may resume under closer watch and guidance.
3. If the failure happens during the third trial as a result of malevolent behavior they head of the circle is given a choice regarding the apprentice: death or tranquility.
(Note, I don't suggest that all Templars are limited to the Circle's and mage's all completely out there, I fully support Templar outposts that allow Templar interventions in case a mage goes "out of control", but that's no different that having guards ready to stop normal criminals)
 
The trials would be probably be limited by the human aspect of the two overseeing the trials, but while not perfect I doubt anything truly would be, this would would probably need to be worked on over time, but in the meantime it would allow Mages more freedom while allowing the Templar's to maintain security.

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#49
Jack Druthers

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Are you suggesting that these trials take place in the Fade or an illusion created by the examiners, or there is a specific real time place (like in RL where soldiers go on exercise)  where they act out scenarios?  I am unclear as to whether the apprentice is accompanied (like a driving test) during the trials, in that the mage examiner would be with them though out the trial, and the templar would  observing, could you clarify?  What would be called a fail in these trials to be able to go back and retake the exam?  I ask this because you suggest, and I agree with you, that death or Tranquility should be a very last resort.

 

Sorry to bombard you with questions, but I like your idea.  Thank you for saying Templar outposts. I'm having lack of brainage, and couldn't get the right words for what I was trying to convey in my post.



#50
DontWakeTheBear

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1.Are you suggesting that these trials take place in the Fade or an illusion created by the examiners, or there is a specific real time place (like in RL where soldiers go on exercise)  where they act out scenarios? 2. I am unclear as to whether the apprentice is accompanied (like a driving test) during the trials, in that the mage examiner would be with them though out the trial, and the templar would  observing, could you clarify?  3.What would be called a fail in these trials to be able to go back and retake the exam?  I ask this because you suggest, and I agree with you, that death or Tranquility should be a very last resort.

 

Sorry to bombard you with questions, but I like your idea.  Thank you for saying Templar outposts. I'm having lack of brainage, and couldn't get the right words for what I was trying to convey in my post.

I added numbers to your post to make it easier to respond:

1. For the first and second trial I'm sure there could easily be a place in the tower to perform the trials. For the third it would vary on the situation being set up, I would suggest somewhere away from the tower personally.

2. In all three trials they would be watched by the First Enchanter and the Knight Commander, although in the third trial the apprentice would likely not be aware he was being watched.

3. The first and second trial simply being unable to complete it is a failure, for example in the test of strength: a combat mage being unable to defeat whatever opponents for set up for him or a healer unable to completely heal their target. The first trial is solely about making sure the mage is strong enough to use and control their power. The second trial is solely about making sure that the mage has marketable skills to ply once outside the tower. Failure to complete either of these aren't "bad" merely that the apprentice isn't "ready" for the outside world therefore the only punishment is to resume studies. The third trial is meant to test the character of the apprentice: to put those those with a temper in something designed to anger them, those who are meek into a confrontation, the prideful into a position of servitude, and see how they respond: Do the angry or prideful lash out? Do the meek give in? What about if their offered a "short-cut"? Do they take it? All these would result in a failure, it would then be up to the examiners (the First Enchanter and Knight Commander) to decide if the apprentice's action's were simply because they were young and inexperienced or if the traits are too deeply ingrained, if the former they are allowed to resume training, but with extra care to help them overcome those specific faults, if the latter....well, I'm sorry but it's the blade or the sunburst.

 

Hope this clears things up for you, if you have anymore questions or suggestions feel free to post them.

:D


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