600 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Mages aren't required for enchating? Do you believe this because of the Tranquil?

 

Well, they're not. See dwarves.

[Hellion Rex]

Runes appear to be a completely different area and they are already common place in the most advanced nations in Thedas. In Nevarra, for instance, they put them in glasses to keep the beverages cool.

Of coure, if they can be applied by anyone, why isn't there a market for it outside of the Circle?

Do we have any proof that there isn't a market though?

[The Baconer]

Mages aren't required for enchating? Do you believe this because of the Tranquil?

 

Why do you believe they are? The fact that Dwarves practice it should be enough that this shouldn't even be a point of contention.

 

What do you need to make enchantments? Lyrium, and a source of labor able to work said Lyrium. You don't need mages to buy Lyrium, and being within close proximity of the substance, let alone shaping it, is potentially fatal to mages. The Tranquil can technically find employment wherever they want, they are not "owned" by the mages or the Circle.

 

 

Also, I can think of a few ways which mages could dominate the market without needing constant streams of magic. For instance, using glyphs of repulsions to move carriages and the likes without the need for horses. Those must be aplied by a mage.

And now magic works like oil. ****.

 

So, what? Mages are just going to be stationed along certain points of the road to apply a new glyph when the vehicle has lost its momentum from the previous one? Are we accounting for fatigue, which would mean there would have to be more mages available to cover for the ones who have to sit out and rest? Would this require Lyrium? Would you have to enact tolls to pay for the Lyrium?

 

And this is supposed to replace all previous methods of ground transport? Why not just build a road with enchanted runes placed along its length?

[MisterJB]

Why do you believe they are? The fact that Dwarves practice it should be enough that this shouldn't even be a point of contention.

 

What do you need to make enchantments? Lyrium, and a source of labor able to work said Lyrium. You don't need mages to buy Lyrium, and being within close proximity of the substance, let alone shaping it, is potentially fatal to mages. The Tranquil can technically find employment wherever they want, they are not "owned" by the mages or the Circle.

 

Hmmm...there's a thought. The monopoly the Circle holds probably stems from the Chantry's own monopoly on lyrium trade. If lyrium were made available to, say, the merchant princes of Antiva, a whole new industry could be created. Tranquil would become sought after artisans which would lead to either the Circle mages having to push for more Rites of Tranquility themselves in order to compete; which, of course, would help ensure that too weak mages not be spared out of pity and become threats to society; or risk decapitating their own source of income if they demand that Tranquils be "cured". Either way, the Circle's monopoly would be broken which would benefit the outside world.

 

I wonder if normal people could be taught by the Tranquil to become enchanters themselves... there really is some potential in this, of course the problem is the lyrium but it's not like the dwarves are a competive civilization, they can barely survive...

 

So, what? Mages are just going to be stationed along certain points of the road to apply a new glyph when the vehicle has lost its momentum from the previous one? Are we accounting for fatigue, which would mean there would have to be more mages available to cover for the ones who have to sit out and rest? Would this require Lyrium? Would you have to enact tolls to pay for the Lyrium?

 

And this is supposed to replace all previous methods of ground transport? Why not just build a road with enchanted runes placed along its length?

 

Glyphs would be much more convenient than mantaining a horse which would help mages dominate the market thus earning them rivers of coin. Once that happens, given the relative international cooperation of the Circles, they could effectively cripple a nation's ability to do war amongst other things; a bit hard to travel if your wagons of provisions are being moved by uncooperative mages.

And that, of course, is only the tip of the iceberg. If, for instance, magic become prevalent in the production and harvest of food, thedosians would be giving the mages the ability to starve entire kingdoms if their conditions are not met, etc.
 

[TheKomandorShepard]

You mean with their so obviously enchanted it shouldn't even needed to be said weapons and armor?

 

TKS, for your argument about mages being weak against people not trained to fight precisely mages, you need to provide a case where non-Templars easily slaughtered mages. 

 

non-mage Hawke takes corry (strongest mages evah) , leliana takes 2 mages easily , few mercenaries takes mage (sketch) and warrior and larius destroying janeka with bare hands hehe...

 

 

Once again you dont take this in perspective. you take mages with zero combat experience against a decently trained warriors and then you say they are weak. If grizzled battle hardened battle mage fromt tevinter would stumble upon a bnch of templar recruits the effect would be the same. the templars would be slaughtered. that doesnt make the templars weak. btw templars cannot dispell an arcane warrior. 

 

where do you found that templars can't dispell an arcane warrior? Well pretty much you can think about it in da 2 when templars destroy them but not in asunder where stronger mages were fighting and lost easily...

[The Baconer]

Hmmm...there's a thought. The monopoly the Circle holds probably stems from the Chantry's own monopoly on lyrium trade. If lyrium were made available to, say, the merchant princes of Antiva, a whole new industry could be created. Tranquil would become sought after artisans which would lead to either the Circle mages having to push for more Rites of Tranquility themselves in order to compete; which, of course, would help ensure that too weak mages not be spared out of pity and become threats to society; or risk decapitating their own source of income if they demand that Tranquils be "cured". Either way, the Circle's monopoly would be broken which would benefit the outside world.

 

Pretty much.

 

 

I wonder if normal people could be taught by the Tranquil to become enchanters themselves... there really is some potential in this, of course the problem is the lyrium but it's not like the dwarves are a competive civilization, they can barely survive...

 

Dwarves and Tranquil are most adept in enchanting because of their lack of connection to the Fade. Even so, contact with Lyrium can have an adverse effect even on Dwarves. While I don't know enough to say that enchanting done by regular humans or elves is impossible, it probably be a rather hazardous process, and it probably wouldn't be as well done.

 

 

Glyphs would be much more convenient than mantaining a horse which would help mages dominate the market thus earning them rivers of coin. Once that happens, given the relative international cooperation of the Circles, they could effectively cripple a nation's ability to do war amongst other things; a bit hard to travel if your wagons of provisions are being moved by uncooperative mages.

 

It's not that simple, as you're not really considering the logistical problems I mentioned in my post, or vastly more practical alternatives. Even if Thedas were to adopt this rather inefficient system, it's not like all the working animals previously used for transporting goods would suddenly be extinct. Thedas certainly isn't going to be cowed by an "elite" class of glorified rickshaw runners.

 

 

And that, of course, is only the tip of the iceberg. If, for instance, magic become prevalent in the production and harvest of food, thedosians would be giving the mages the ability to starve entire kingdoms if their conditions are not met, etc.

 

This has already been addressed. As of now (unless it has been mentioned in some offhand manner in the Pen-and-paper RPG books), there has never been a mentioned occurrence of magic being used to grow food. If such a thing were possible, it would probably be a very difficult and advanced process (given that it would likely fall under the school of Creation) that couldn't be implemented on such a scale that it could feed entire kingdoms.

 

I find it hard to believe that Tevinter, the most magically-advanced nation in Thedas by a significant margin, would be laid low by famine if this were possible.

 

[wcholcombe]

I would argue that seeing as how we have yet to see mages impact or control the weather, it might be a jump to day they can make it rain or stop a flood.

As has been indicated several times, it isn't just power of the mage in question, but knowing the necessary spell. DA mages do operate on knowings spells, not just visualizing with their mind. As YnnLynne points out getting a spell just slightly wrong can have dissasterous consequences.


Not saying they can't do this, but the closest we have seen is DAI mages using wind to clear gas fumes. Which is a long way from making it rain.

[MisterJB]

It's not that simple, as you're not really considering the logistical problems I mentioned in my post, or vastly more practical alternatives. Even if Thedas were to adopt this rather inefficient system, it's not like all the working animals previously used for transporting goods would suddenly be extinct. Thedas certainly isn't going to be cowed by an "elite" class of glorified rickshaw runners.

 

It's true I didn't adress those logistical problems but that is because DA never bothered to place much logic behind magic. There is no way for us to know how precisely it would work. After all, maybe the complete potential of these glyphs are what we see being used in combat in which case, this discussion would be moot.

I am assuming it would work much like oil does in our world. And that means the difference between being able to field tanks and...not. In which case, having horses remain as an alternative won't do the nation that has fallen out of favor with the mage elite much good.

And then, of course, there's always the simple fact that money talks; and magic will help anyone gain it. Money that can then be used to push mage interests.

 

 

This has already been addressed. As of now (unless it has been mentioned in some offhand manner in the Pen-and-paper RPG books), there has never been a mentioned occurrence of magic being used to grow food. If such a thing were possible, it would probably be a very difficult and advanced process (given that it would likely fall under the school of Creation) that couldn't be implemented on such a scale that it could feed entire kingdoms.

 

I find it hard to believe that Tevinter, the most magically-advanced nation in Thedas by a significant margin, would be laid low by famine if this were possible.

 

Maybe but I find it hard to believe that when blood magic is literally capable of carving mansions out of the ground (The World of Thedas), that making some wheat grow is such an unnacomplishable task.

Also, a mage in one of those really old Dragon Age comics that were not written by David Gaider claimed blood magic could restore fialing crops. Of course, their canon status can be called to question.

Well, at least this discussion gave me a new perspective on how lyrium and the Tranquil could be used by normal people outside of the Chantry.

[Hellion Rex]

I would argue that seeing as how we have yet to see mages impact or control the weather, it might be a jump to day they can make it rain or stop a flood.

As to the weather:

*cough* Andraste *cough*

 

As for the flood, a mage who knows water magic probably could do it.

[Master Warder Z_]

As to the weather:

*cough* Andraste *cough*

 

As for the flood, a mage who knows water magic probably could do it.

 

This really seems like grasping at snippets of the lore when it isn't even stated they can effect these things.

[Hellion Rex]

This really seems like grasping at snippets of the lore when it isn't even stated they can effect these things.

We only just now learned that mages can use wind in DAI. Not too much of a stretch to think they could manipulate water. Although I don't think they could actually full on stop rainfall yet.

[Master Warder Z_]

We only just now learned that mages can use wind in DAI. Not too much of a stretch to think they could manipulate water. Although I don't think they could actually full on stop rainfall yet.

 

Next thing you know, they will be forming whirlwinds and razing fields because some one said mean things to them about the colors of their robes.

[Hellion Rex]

Next thing you know, they will be forming whirlwinds and razing fields because some one said mean things to them about the colors of their robes.

*cough* Vivienne *cough*

[The Baconer]

It's true I didn't adress those logistical problems but that is because DA never bothered to place much logic behind magic. There is no way for us to know how precisely it would work. After all, maybe the complete potential of these glyphs are what we see being used in combat in which case, this discussion would be moot.

 

I think we know enough to make a semi-informed prediction. Use of mana fatigues, which would be a problem on its own. The repulsion glyph seems to simply force whatever comes within its proximity away from its center point, so I was visualizing mages placing glyphs under carts and carriages in order to repel them in a desired direction. If you were thinking of having them power a machine in the same way that oil powers an engine, you certainly wouldn't need a glyph for that, I would imagine basic fire or shockwaves or whatever would do.

 

Of course, that would also require knowledge of how to construct said engines, which again, is not something that is necessarily inherent to mages.

 

 

And then, of course, there's always the simple fact that money talks; and magic will help anyone gain it. Money that can then be used to push mage interests.

 

If you're nurturing an environment where a mage would feel obligated to push mage interests as a whole instead of that particular mage's interests, I suppose.

 

 

Maybe but I find it hard to believe that when blood magic is literally capable of carving mansions out of the ground (The World of Thedas), that making some wheat grow is such an unnacomplishable task.

 

The foundations were raised using magic. And the very magisters who did that were apparently unable to combat the hunger that crippled their armies, so I don't find it very hard to believe.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

non-mage Hawke takes corry (strongest mages evah) , leliana takes 2 mages easily , few mercenaries takes mage (sketch) and warrior and larius destroying janeka with bare hands hehe...

Hawke is the protagonist

 

Leliana is an elite assassin

 

Yeah, a few mercs had to take on one mage

 

Larius launches a sudden surprise attack while Janeka had her attention on Hawke. Plus he is a several decade experienced Warden Commander.

 

In short, none of those except for the Sketch one, which ironically proves a single mage has to be taken by a group of mercs instead of a single merc, is viable due to either plot armor, a super elite nonmage going against regular mages, or a super elite nonmage launching a surprise attack. 

[MisterJB]

I wouldn't call that a surprise attack. True, she wasn't facing him directly, but she knew he was there and she knew that when she initiated violence, Larius would fight against her.

it's more likely that being a Warden Commander makes him extremely skilled and he knows how to fight mages: hit them before they can cast a spell, and don't let up until they're dead.

However, one must also take into account that Janeka had to be very skilled if she was a Grey Warden.

 

Just my two cents. Not saying that magic isn't extremely dangerous.

[Master Warder Z_]

I wouldn't call that a surprise attack. True, she wasn't facing him directly, but she knew he was there and she knew that when she initiated violence, Larius would fight against her.

it's more likely that being a Warden Commander makes him extremely skilled and he knows how to fight mages: hit them before they can cast a spell, and don't let up until they're dead.

However, one must also take into account that Janeka had to be very skilled if she was a Grey Warden.

 

Just my two cents. Not saying that magic isn't extremely dangerous.

 

Warden's only recruit the best and fighting blighted abominations only improves their combat capabilities.

[MisterJB]

I think we know enough to make a semi-informed prediction. Use of mana fatigues, which would be a problem on its own. The repulsion glyph seems to simply force whatever comes within its proximity away from its center point, so I was visualizing mages placing glyphs under carts and carriages in order to repel them in a desired direction. If you were thinking of having them power a machine in the same way that oil powers an engine, you certainly wouldn't need a glyph for that, I would imagine basic fire or shockwaves or whatever would do.

 

Of course, that would also require knowledge of how to construct said engines, which again, is not something that is necessarily inherent to mages.

But there is always the possibility for improvement if mages were allowed to experiment which includes said glyphs. And it's not like they would dominate only one field. I can, for instance, imagine how useful Force magic must be in extracting the minerals needed to build engines.

The point is that magic is a tremendous advantage and that it is inevitable that, if free, mages will use this to gain a prominent place in society. Non-mages will simply be unable to compete.

Every non-Andrastian and non-Qunari society is evidence of this. The Tevinters have their magisters, the Dalish have their Keepers, the Chasind their Shamans, the Rivaini their Seers.

To more or less effect, all of these societies were mages are free are also magocracies.

 

 

If you're nurturing an environment where a mage would feel obligated to push mage interests as a whole instead of that particular mage's interests, I suppose.

Tevinter Magisters spend most of their time planning on how to destroy each other but when there are slave rebellions, they are quick to unite; and this occurs in the most pro-mage environment possible.

 

 

The foundations were raised using magic. And the very magisters who did that were apparently unable to combat the hunger that crippled their armies, so I don't find it very hard to believe.

The land was Blighted; that could have been the determining factor.

[Dean_the_Young]

Just to briefly throw four heypennies into the mages and food discussion-

 

Whether mages can control the weather or make crops grow or not (and I don't really see any in-universe reason why they can't- magical alteration is definitely a thing), mages can certainly have a big impact on two of agriculture's biggest factors behind weather: infrastructure and labor.

 

In terms of infrastructure, magic (blood or otherwise) would easily be a major cost-saver in getting water to crops and crops to market. Even brute-force methods like using magic to make aqueducts to bring water to crops, or carving out canals (or new Imperial Roads) to take the crops to market, could bring mages into critical parts of the agricultural chains. Especially if we developed it a bit more to things like magic-powered aquifer access, accelerated plant growth (haste?), and similar potential alterations to increase yields. As these gains would have to be established, maintained, and expanded, that's easily a influential niche right there.

 

For labor, magic could easily dominate that market typically left for mundanes, if you want to challenge conventional ethics. Even without blood magic, the field of necromancy would be a huge untapped and low-cost labor source- why pay workers who eat your produce when you can grow food with a skeletal workers army that wants no food or pay? Once some enterprising necromancer can figure out how to chain necromanced skeletons to their will for non-violent purposes, there's not much need for mundanes in any part of the industry.

[Master Warder Z_]

Just to briefly throw four heypennies into the mages and food discussion-

 

Whether mages can control the weather or make crops grow or not (and I don't really see any in-universe reason why they can't- magical alteration is definitely a thing), mages can certainly have a big impact on two of agriculture's biggest factors behind weather: infrastructure and labor.

 

In terms of infrastructure, magic (blood or otherwise) would easily be a major cost-saver in getting water to crops and crops to market. Even brute-force methods like using magic to make aqueducts to bring water to crops, or carving out canals (or new Imperial Roads) to take the crops to market, could bring mages into critical parts of the agricultural chains. Especially if we developed it a bit more to things like magic-powered aquifer access, accelerated plant growth (haste?), and similar potential alterations to increase yields. As these gains would have to be established, maintained, and expanded, that's easily a influential niche right there.

 

For labor, magic could easily dominate that market typically left for mundanes, if you want to challenge conventional ethics. Even without blood magic, the field of necromancy would be a huge untapped and low-cost labor source- why pay workers who eat your produce when you can grow food with a skeletal workers army that wants no food or pay? Once some enterprising necromancer can figure out how to chain necromanced skeletons to their will for non-violent purposes, there's not much need for mundanes in any part of the industry.

 

Stop it dean!

 

You're giving the Magickers idea's!

 

:c

[Hellion Rex]

Just to briefly throw four heypennies into the mages and food discussion-

 

Whether mages can control the weather or make crops grow or not (and I don't really see any in-universe reason why they can't- magical alteration is definitely a thing), mages can certainly have a big impact on two of agriculture's biggest factors behind weather: infrastructure and labor.

 

In terms of infrastructure, magic (blood or otherwise) would easily be a major cost-saver in getting water to crops and crops to market. Even brute-force methods like using magic to make aqueducts to bring water to crops, or carving out canals (or new Imperial Roads) to take the crops to market, could bring mages into critical parts of the agricultural chains. Especially if we developed it a bit more to things like magic-powered aquifer access, accelerated plant growth (haste?), and similar potential alterations to increase yields. As these gains would have to be established, maintained, and expanded, that's easily a influential niche right there.

 

For labor, magic could easily dominate that market typically left for mundanes, if you want to challenge conventional ethics. Even without blood magic, the field of necromancy would be a huge untapped and low-cost labor source- why pay workers who eat your produce when you can grow food with a skeletal workers army that wants no food or pay? Once some enterprising necromancer can figure out how to chain necromanced skeletons to their will for non-violent purposes, there's not much need for mundanes in any part of the industry.

Yes, let's take the mundanes out of the equation. Magic gets it done better anyways!

[Master Warder Z_]

Yes, let's take the mundanes out of the equation. Magic gets it done better anyways!

 

And people wonder why i think the circle should remain...

 

And Ahem: I am Pain!

 

And i will be the God of THIS WORLD!

[Hellion Rex]

Bah, who needs mundanes. Purge the lot of them.

[dragonflight288]

Bah, who needs mundanes. Purge the lot of them.

 

*brings in a torch and pitchfork*

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I wouldn't call that a surprise attack. True, she wasn't facing him directly, but she knew he was there and she knew that when she initiated violence, Larius would fight against her.

it's more likely that being a Warden Commander makes him extremely skilled and he knows how to fight mages: hit them before they can cast a spell, and don't let up until they're dead.

However, one must also take into account that Janeka had to be very skilled if she was a Grey Warden.

 

Just my two cents. Not saying that magic isn't extremely dangerous.

That is true, especially since he isn't just a Warden but a Warden Commander, one who has shone above his comrades as a true leader and warrior.