600 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Bah, who needs mundanes. Purge the lot of them.

 

._. You dare question the will of the Heavens?!

 

I will use my rip off starwars powers and obliterate you!

[Hellion Rex]

I'll just send a 16 year old blonde brat your way.

[MisterJB]

 rip off starwars powers

OY!

[Master Warder Z_]

I'll just send a 16 year old blonde brat your way.

 

*Flashbacks*

 

 

....Erm....I'm good.

 

<.<

 

 

OY!

 

What?

[The Baconer]

But there is always the possibility for improvement if mages were allowed to experiment which includes said glyphs. And it's not like they would dominate only one field. I can, for instance, imagine how useful Force magic must be in extracting the minerals needed to build engines.

The point is that magic is a tremendous advantage and that it is inevitable that, if free, mages will use this to gain a prominent place in society. Non-mages will simply be unable to compete.

 

 

If that is indeed the forgone conclusion of techno-magical (heh) advancement, so what?

 

Every non-Andrastian and non-Qunari society is evidence of this. The Tevinters have their magisters, the Dalish have their Keepers, the Chasind their Shamans, the Rivaini their Seers.

To more or less effect, all of these societies were mages are free are also magocracies.

 

Outside of Tevinter, the mundanes from each of these societies can put an end to this whenever they want. It's their choice to perpetuate the heightened status of mages, for whatever reasons.

 

 

Tevinter Magisters spend most of their time planning on how to destroy each other but when there are slave rebellions, they are quick to unite; and this occurs in the most pro-mage environment possible.

 

Right, and it's the Magisters themselves who create this environment with their practice of slavery.

 

 

The land was Blighted; that could have been the determining factor.

 

No. Such a development would be a completely world-changing event whose effects we would have been exposed to at some point.

[Azrielon]

I'd argue against using necromancy with labor, it just sounds so... unsanitary. I mean would you buy the local produce if you knew that Jim (who died in the woods last week due to a terrible hunting accident) was the one who was working the fields that said produce came from?

[MisterJB]

If that is indeed the forgone conclusion of techno-magical (heh) advancement, so what?

You find it acceptable for non-mages to become second class citizens who live athe mercy of mage elites?

 

Outside of Tevinter, the mundanes from each of these societies can put an end to this whenever they want. It's their choice to perpetuate the heightened status of mages, for whatever reasons.

 

Cultural brainwashing. And I don't think it's a foregone conclusion they could just do it. For instance, there must be a reason so many rivaini join the Qun.

 

 

 

Right, and it's the Magisters themselves who create this environment with their practice of slavery.

It's evidence of how upper classes, no matter their disagreements with each other, will unite when their interests are threatened

 

 

No. Such a development would be a completely world-changing event whose effects we would have been exposed to at some point.

Clarify?

[The Baconer]

You find it acceptable for non-mages to become second class citizens who live at the mercy of mage elites?

 

Someone's always going to be the second class. I mean, we're going to abolish the proliferation of potentially beneficial technology because it might require mages to build and maintain? On the grounds that it... wouldn't be fair?

 

 

Cultural brainwashing. And I don't think it's a foregone conclusion they could just do it. For instance, there must be a reason so many rivaini join the Qun.

That nobility is a real thing that exists (heck, even Tevinter perpetuates this on some level) is a cultural brainwashing, it just happens to be the most popular flavor at the moment.

 

 

It's evidence of how upper classes, no matter their disagreements with each other, will unite when their interests are threatened

 

I don't even think that's a characteristic exclusive to the upper-class, but they do have more in the way of protecting their interests, sure.

 

Clarify?

 

Well, it would be nearly impossible for Tevinter to not be the richest country in Thedas at all times, especially if they could magically grow something like Felicidus Aria. You would also be seeing the Circles outside the Imperium dedicating a significant portion of their studies to replicating their success.

[Lulupab]

People need to realize the only thing wrong with Tevinter is slavery. There is absolutely nothing wrong with mages being ruling class. At least its more valid than what noble families claim aka "noble blood" which is not even a real thing, just a label. At least mages are quite real and have a clear advantage. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I don't really think the "mages would take our jerbs" argument completely rules out the application of magic in a practical sense. I can see where some would have a kneejerk, but if it raised the average life expectancy and quality of life overall, there's a strong argument that the shift in power balance could be worth it. 

[Lillian]

Let's not forget that it's possible for societies to be all-magic... I'm sure if mages were left to their own devices/mating, they would be on the road to being less of a minority.

[Helios969]

Hmmm, mages as parallels to technological advancement.  Well, it's true we do not know what elements mages can control (though I see no reason they cannot manipulate most everything) or what if any limitations their magic holds.  But we do know what they can do.  They can manifest flame from their hands.  Fire is hot and can heat water.  Water can be converted to steam to drive a turbine which in turn can be used to produce electricity.  Hence whatever limitations there may be, some simple engineering principles can be used to use the ability for a larger purpose.  Maybe not the best example since they do not know about electricity, but point is that many magical powers could be converted to mechanical energy.

 

Anyone know why the American lumbermen of the 19th Century cut a swath from Maine to Washington...clearing massive tracts of land?  Believe it or not it wasn't for the lumber.  It was for farmland.  Trees were considered something inhibiting crop production and by extension growth of the Union.  Once the trees were felled any potential farming required removal of hundreds of stumps, tedious and backbreaking work...maybe knocking out one or two a day.  By comparison a mage might make short work of those stumps, or even rip the trees out by the roots from the get go.

[Jack Druthers]

@ Helios969 Beat me to it, we discussed clearing land a few pages back, still think it is a viable idea though.  To go in a  Industrial revolution type direction might be pushing it imo.

[Lotion Soronarr]

People need to realize the only thing wrong with Tevinter is slavery. There is absolutely nothing wrong with mages being ruling class. At least its more valid than what noble families claim aka "noble blood" which is not even a real thing, just a label. At least mages are quite real and have a clear advantage. 

 

 

You mean beside that being absolutely unreachable by 99% of the population (a regular Joe CAN become a noble. Bloody unlikely, but still possible.)

And beside the ruling elite now having far too much power, making change of power or stopping of tyranny even harder?

[Nocte ad Mortem]

The need for magic in a society where magic became a larger driving force for better quality of life would make mages valuable, but it's a stretch to say non-magical people would have no use. Who is to say who would have the most practical theories for application, the best strategical minds, the most progressive philosophical thought? What we're talking about for the practical use of magic introduces the mages to at least the base manual labor fields. It doesn't mean there isn't plenty of room for non-magical people in administration and manual labor filler positions. It doesn't mean every mage would be more suited to leadership just because they're able to apply a trade that's needed. Mages aren't the strongest and smartest people in the world, full stop. It also doesn't mean there would be enough mages to fill every sector of the unskilled labor field. This would integrate them into society and make their skills more useful, but it's an enormous slippery-slope argument to say it would completely nullify all use for non-magical people in society.  

[Dean_the_Young]

Let's not forget that it's possible for societies to be all-magic... I'm sure if mages were left to their own devices/mating, they would be on the road to being less of a minority.

 

You probably didn't mean for that to sound as horrific as it came across.

 

Magic isn't strictly a genetic thing- with the parentage not guaranteeing someone to be a mage or not, free breeding wouldn't radically alter the demographics. Especially since the Templars don't enforce population control measures on the mages. Short of the 'make everyone mages' hail mary, the only way mages left to their own devices could make themselves notably less of a minority is to kill a staggering number of mundanes.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

You probably didn't mean for that to sound as horrific as it came across.

 

Magic isn't strictly a genetic thing- with the parentage not guaranteeing someone to be a mage or not, free breeding wouldn't radically alter the demographics. Especially since the Templars don't enforce population control measures on the mages. Short of the 'make everyone mages' hail mary, the only way mages left to their own devices could make themselves notably less of a minority is to kill a staggering number of mundanes.

I don't think there's actually evidence enough to make the call that "free breeding" wouldn't dramatically alter demographics. We don't know how much more likely a mage parent is to produce mage offspring. We do know that locking up mages ensures they're likely only going to breed with other mages, if they breed at all. I'm not entirely convinced there isn't strong discouragement on mage breeding, however. Templars don't drown mage babies born in the circles, sure, but I get the strong impression they do discourage sexual relationships when possible. Although, by all accounts, that's not working out very well.

 

I do agree, though, that it's extremely unlikely, if not impossible, that they would ever breed out non-magical people completely. The likeliness of non-magicals even becoming a minority is pretty low, I would estimate. 

[sassyJacen]

Although I am usually pro-mage I do think a compromise will be necessary for peace. I've wanted Templars to go back to their old ways since Asunder. Evangeline was really my ideal Templar. Protecting the mages from themselves, protecting them from other people and protecting other people from them.

I have always hated the idea of children being ripped away from their parents, its cruel and barbaric. The children obviously need to be taught to control their magic but I would like to see a compromise where the Circle is seen as a school, a place for learning, the children would attend the Circle throughout the week, then return to their families at the weekends. The parents would need to live within close proximity to the Circle for this to be possible. Of course this assumes they even want to see their children as many people fear mages or are disgusted by magic. Hopefully these opinions change as mages are integrated into society more with the rest of my compromise..

These mages would still he watched over by Templars and they would still complete their Harrowings. However once they are Harrowed they get rewarded. The current system means even the best, most loyal, pro-circle mages are still treated like any other mage. With the odd exception here and there. I would allow Harrowed mages to leave the Circle, for the first few years they would be under Templar supervision. One Templar might be tasked to watch over one or two mages. These mages would be allowed to work, they could be healers, builders, enchanters etc. If they help communities around Thedas people will start to see mages as helpful and hopefully fear them less.

They would slowly be weaned off the Templar supervision. But would have regular check-ups. If a templar suspects a mage is using blood magic they can take them straight back to the Circle to be dealt with. Most of the time blood magic is used because they have no other option. I'm hoping this system where mages are more free reduces the frequency of which they turn to such magic.

Of course there will always be one or two mages that just want power and do use those magics. With this compromise you'd just have to hope the Templars realised it in time. Which is not so different to the Circle but there at least the situation is contained.

I would also make sure the templars are not abusing their position by making them equal to mages, they would no longer be their jailers, they would be working together as comrades to improve Thedas and to work together to keep one another safe. 
 

That sounds like the pefect solution! But it is to late now....

[Lulupab]

You mean beside that being absolutely unreachable by 99% of the population (a regular Joe CAN become a noble. Bloody unlikely, but still possible.)

And beside the ruling elite now having far too much power, making change of power or stopping of tyranny even harder?

 

How do you think Tevinter pups them out? Make record of those people giving birth to mage children and breed mages with mages. Laetan families of Tevinter have known to give birth to several mage children each generation for ages now. Each time they do that the chance of next generation increases. Possibly there are families in Tevinter who always give birth to mage children provided they have children with people in same condition as them.

[Helios969]

All this mage breeding talk brings eugenics to mind. Scary line of thought.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Hawke is the protagonist

 

Leliana is an elite assassin

 

Yeah, a few mercs had to take on one mage

 

Larius launches a sudden surprise attack while Janeka had her attention on Hawke. Plus he is a several decade experienced Warden Commander.

 

In short, none of those except for the Sketch one, which ironically proves a single mage has to be taken by a group of mercs instead of a single merc, is viable due to either plot armor, a super elite nonmage going against regular mages, or a super elite nonmage launching a surprise attack. 

 

If you want seek excuses i can agree with 1 but still most powerful mage destroyed by non-mage

 

leliana isn't super omega killing machine she stated in dao she couldn't handle chevalier neither she had chance with the warden as i said if you want make excuse because someone is trained warrior and crushed mage like nothing your call...

 

Few mercs took mage and 1 warrior and they surrendered so they were way weaker then them...

 

Larius destroyed her in 1 second before even she could have chance to end cast spell what is slow any skillful warrior could do that either by being just quick enough or blocking that with proper shield or just shoot mage with bow.And no ghoul that barley can walk isn't super elite not mention that her target was in full strenght and trained...  
 

[The Baconer]

People need to realize the only thing wrong with Tevinter is slavery.

 

No, there is plenty wrong with Tevinter beyond that.

[DKJaigen]

If you want seek excuses i can agree with 1 but still most powerful mage destroyed by non-mage

 

leliana isn't super omega killing machine she stated in dao she couldn't handle chevalier neither she had chance with the warden as i said if you want make excuse because someone is trained warrior and crushed mage like nothing your call...

 

Few mercs took mage and 1 warrior and they surrendered so they were way weaker then them...

 

Larius destroyed her in 1 second before even she could have chance to end cast spell what is slow any skillful warrior could do that either by being just quick enough or blocking that with proper shield or just shoot mage with bow.And no ghoul that barley can walk isn't super elite not mention that her target was in full strenght and trained...  
 

 

And yet the tevinters have managed to create an empire through conquest that i yet unrivalled anywhere in modern thedas. They have accomplished feats of engineering and magic not seen anywhere in thedas.Magic and mages in thedas are kept weak by the chantry. that doesnt make them weak however. my mage hawke en warden said **** the chantry and ended a blight or killed hundreds of templars. Its likely that these days return soon

[DKJaigen]

No, there is plenty wrong with Tevinter beyond that.

 

All nations have some **** going on.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If you want seek excuses i can agree with 1 but still most powerful mage destroyed by non-mage

 

leliana isn't super omega killing machine she stated in dao she couldn't handle chevalier neither she had chance with the warden as i said if you want make excuse because someone is trained warrior and crushed mage like nothing your call...

 

Few mercs took mage and 1 warrior and they surrendered so they were way weaker then them...

 

Larius destroyed her in 1 second before even she could have chance to end cast spell what is slow any skillful warrior could do that either by being just quick enough or blocking that with proper shield or just shoot mage with bow.And no ghoul that barley can walk isn't super elite not mention that her target was in full strenght and trained...  
 

Then by all means, answer my request to provide instances where 1 regular nonmage was able to defeat a mage. I have plenty for my side.