600 réponses à ce sujet

[Lillian]

Hello, just wanted to add my two cents!

 

Generally, these ideas are good and they seem very rational; however, I do take issues with the remnants of the Templar Order. Personally, I don't agree with the training of templars at all, given that ingesting lyrium is required for them. Yes, this makes templars very powerful against mages, but it does bring great harm to them due to lyrium's effects and its addictive factors. It also leaves their order under the governance of a larger organization that controls the flow of lyrium, the Chantry, Orzammar or anyone else. So, perhaps, mages could govern themselves, split into basic groups based off of the Schools of Magic. This would only happen if the Circle was an independent entity instead of an educational institution, however. There would be a lot of ifs and buts to figuring out a system that would function on limited education to those within the tower, of course, but it seems a more ethical solution... Perhaps even a more rational one, given the effectiveness of the Spirit School in dealing with mages as opposed to Templars.

[Zack_Nero]

As much as people would like to have a middle ground, I personally think that it can't exist. This conflict has been going on for centries and in all honest it was the middle ground and it didn't work. Their is always going to be someone from the other side that wants more, and because of that change or peace won't happen till one side fully wins the war.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

As far as has ever been implied, there's a greater chance of everyone becoming magic than of finding a way to suppress all magic. There's strong implications to make an argument that possibly everyone was magic once and, maybe even, that a complete destruction of the veil could make everyone magic again. I don't think anything has ever implied there was a central force that could lock all magic out. A stronger veil, maybe? That seems like, at best, a temporary solution. I don't think we'll see an end of magic, if just because it's obviously a huge game play detraction for future installments. 

 

To me, the best compromise is to separate circles from the Chantry and make them as schools to teach the mages how to control their powers. I think the focus should be on teaching mages how to contain their powers with positive reinforcement, not on initial skepticism and sprung, life or death pop quizzes with no preparation, like the current system. The Chantry was a poor choice for management of mages from the start, in my opinion. Their doctrine has a strong slant against magic and they tend to exacerbate people's fear and rejection of mages, rather than try to integrate mages into society or foster acceptance. Allowing the Chantry to build templar armies in every country also gives them a frightening amount of power over these countries. The Chantry also seems to have a huge hand in stifling any study that would help the world better understand magic, because they know their handling has bred such vitriol from mages and they fear anything that could tilt the power position out of their favor. This just goes to cripple everyone's understanding of magic and what benefit it could offer society at large if it could be better harnessed. If there was a more amicable situation with mages, there wouldn't need to be such intense paranoia surrounding study of magic.

 

The Chantry situation is odd to me, because it seems like something most people that buy these games would reject the notion of in real life. I can't imagine most people would back the idea of a religious institution having this kind of power. Can you imagine a good 75-80% of the world agreeing, at this point in the world's development, to let one religion take control of a large population group to the point of wholesale forced detainment, as well as all study surrounding an element that encompassed vastly improved medical, energy and weaponry related fields, and, on top of that, establish a military force spanning across all countries involved to see this done? I couldn't. So, I have a hard time understanding why this is accepted by so many people in the context of Thedas.  

[Helios969]

Lillian: Good point.  I always forget about the lyrium aspect to Templars.  May be time to wean them off the stuff.  Hell, my rogue killed mages in droves in DA2 without a drop of lyrium;)

 

Zack_Nero: Personally I feel the fundamental problem is that the relationship puts mages in the role of subordinate.  This automatically creates an adversarial relationship.  If you give mages some degree of autonomy and create a system where consensus is required between the 3 principles, you may achieve some modicum of success.  Blood magic still needs to carry a capital punishment.

 

I am curious how the writers will attempt to resolve this conflict...or if they even can do so in game.

[Lillian]

As we discuss the future of mages, we need to address the elephant in the room; blood magic. Blood Magic and the fear and hatred it inspires is arguably the biggest part of this whole debacle. Most fear of magic comes from fear of Blood Magic, it seems. Yes, we can argue that oppression is giving rise to Blood Magic, but we need to remember that blood magic will always have this mystery and convenience. Honestly, mana sucks to maintain, having a bank of it is just downright impractical, and recovering it is annoying. The ingredients for good mana potions is high and mana drain is just downright useless... Blood Magic is an interesting School of Magic, albeit a dangerous school. Perhaps dispelling fear of it through standard education to mages will help? I don't know, just something to ponder.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Seriously, some people really are living in the dream world with their "solutions".

 

Having autonomous Circles? Mages in power? Chantry being a bad parent institution for the Circles? Removal of Templars?

 

Whatever shrooms you're one, I want some.

[Helios969]

I take it you're a "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" type.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nah. I'm the rational camp that knows perfect solutions don't exist and trying to force them in will only result in even greater tragedy.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I think what people fail to acknowledge is that control of mages, whether too strict or too lax, is always down to templars. It's true in Tevinter and it's true in the rest of the world of Thedas. Templars are the only ones that know how to combat magic. This keeps the Chantry in power in most of Thedas and it also keeps the mages in control in Tevinter, because they limit the agency of the non-mage citizens by putting in position only a few puppet templars. If the knowledge was widespread and well studied as to how magic of all types could be contained, there would be far less to fear for everyone. 

[Lillian]

Nah. I'm the rational camp that knows perfect solutions don't exist and trying to force them in will only result in even greater tragedy.

Yeah, I have to admit, it can't be perfect. Half of what I've suggested wouldn't be a perfect system, but nothing can ever be perfect. Yet, we can make things better. If it's irrational to try and force a change for the better, even a gradual one, then should anyone want to be rational? Yes, we can't just snap and know that we've created a system that is perfect for society... But we can set society in the right direction, so things can be better for the younger generations! We can never win in this, but we can make it so the loss won't be nearly as heart-wrenching.

[Helios969]

The question is do we settle for a less-than perfect solution, or do we just let either side have at one another and burn half the world in the process?  In the end I really don't care about Templars or mages, I'm siding with the 99% that has nothing to do with either.

[Enshaid]

   I always thought that the circles should still exist, but as a place of education run by mages. Children who show signs of magic are required to go there, have phylacteries made, take there harrowing, and all that jazz, and if they make it through they get to go out in the world and live as free citizens just like everyone else just with the caveat that they are a registered mage and are being watched. If they get up to any forbidden magics shenanigans, we can keep the templars around to hunt down maleficarum using their phylacteries.

 

  I mean sure there's room for abuse, but there's already plenty of that with Chantry oversight anyway. There's not really a perfect solution to the people who can throw fireballs dilemma. 

 

Edit: But that is my opinion. My decisions in game largely depend on my character's perspective. For example, playing as an apostate Hawke I felt like a hypocrite advocating for anything but absolute mage freedom.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

About isolationism, what about children of mages that don't possess magic? What do you suppose would happen to them? It seems like the societies would just come to mirror the mainland after a couple generations. 

[SiN82]

I'm curious to know how much power have the inquisition. We are above everything? The Circle? The Chantry? Even above Kings and queens?

 

Anyway, t would be cool if the game will let us choose between supress the mage rebelion in blood or destroy the chantry and let the mages free... choose elves fate... support slavery or abolish it and donate a piece of land where they can rebuild their society.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Yeah, I have to admit, it can't be perfect. Half of what I've suggested wouldn't be a perfect system, but nothing can ever be perfect. Yet, we can make things better. If it's irrational to try and force a change for the better, even a gradual one, then should anyone want to be rational? Yes, we can't just snap and know that we've created a system that is perfect for society... But we can set society in the right direction, so things can be better for the younger generations! We can never win in this, but we can make it so the loss won't be nearly as heart-wrenching.

 

I'm talking about impossible and highly impractical ideas.

Your suggestions might sound great at first, but there are many underlying problems and it would very soon blow up in your face.

 

So no, I'm afraid I cannot agree that you are making the system better overall.

 

Dean made a great post establishing an coherent analysis of why the Circle system exists and what it's goals are. If any system you replace it with doesn't cover all 4 goals as well, then it fails.

 

Furthermore, treating mages and magic like something that is solved by education, and turning Circles into Harry Potter-esque mage schools is a pipe dream.

Then the idea that magic can be easily stopped and everyone can be a templar (LYRIUM FOR EVERYONE)

Or that templars are a stupid idea as an organization (drinking lyrium is bad, M'Kay?). I do have to wonder if the Grey Wardens would have to be dismantled too, given that they too voluntarily ingest a substance that will drive them mad?

Or that anything other than a secular organizations overseeing the Circles is bad (religion is bad)

 

The people in TheDas aren't stupid. They don't fear magic and witches because of silly superstition or because the Chantry told them to - they fear them because they simply are that dangerous.

Not to mention all the false assumptions and myths regarding middle ages and the church (and there are oh-so many), carried over from RL into this game, and applying modern day conveniences and sensibilities to the world of TheDas.

[Friera]

I´ve been wondering about one thing. I rather ask here instead of making a new thread.

 

If mages got 100% freedom, will it turn into another Tevinter Imperium (Like Fenris fears). Considering human nature crave power. And the more power they get, the more they want. And mages are in general much stronger than non-mages. Mages could possibly enslave the world, which the exception of the quanari.

[Enshaid]

Or that anything other than a secular organizations overseeing the Circles is bad (religion is bad)

 

Weeell... It is.... *ducks and covers*

[SiN82]

I´ve been wondering about one thing. I rather ask here instead of making a new thread.

 

If mages got 100% freedom, will it turn into another Tevinter Imperium (Like Fenris fears). Considering human nature crave power. And the more power they get, the more they want. And mages are in general much stronger than non-mages. Mages could possibly enslave the world, which the exception of the quanari.

 

Probably yes... and the same can happen with elves... if a charismatic leader or a power/god can help them to reunite, i'm sure most of them will look for vengance against humans

[Nocte ad Mortem]

The idea that mages and normal people can't get along without one basically enslaving the other takes a seriously dark perspective on human nature. It's always possible that the goodness in people can outshine the darker elements and peace with only moderate hiccups can arise. Taking the stance that ONLY war can come between two people with differences isn't less misguided than thinking peace would be incredibly easy. I don't understand the idealism behind assuming domination by one side is the only possible outcome. It's entirely possible for two groups of people to consider each other's needs and safety and for the majority on both sides to work towards accomplishing a good balance. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

   I always thought that the circles should still exist, but as a place of education run by mages. Children who show signs of magic are required to go there, have phylacteries made, take there harrowing, and all that jazz, and if they make it through they get to go out in the world and live as free citizens just like everyone else just with the caveat that they are a registered mage and are being watched. If they get up to any forbidden magics shenanigans, we can keep the templars around to hunt down maleficarum using their phylacteries.

 

Hm...

 

How do you solve the issue of mages turning into abominations or abusing blood magic?

How will you detect it if mages are spread around everywhere?

How would any force respond in time?

What will you do when a mage turns abomination and slaughters an entire village and moves on before anyone can respond?

What will you do when a mage enthralls a village? Or usurps the local economy?

What will you do if people start demanding blood and form lynch mobs?

[Enshaid]

Hm...

 

How do you solve the issue of mages turning into abominations or abusing blood magic?

How will you detect it if mages are spread around everywhere?

How would any force respond in time?

What will you do when a mage turns abomination and slaughters an entire village and moves on before anyone can respond?

What will you do when a mage enthralls a village? Or usurps the local economy?

What will you do if people start demanding blood and form lynch mobs?

I was given the impression that phylacteries allowed you to hunt down specific mages, not mages in general. So the fact that mages are spread around everywhere shouldn't be a problem. As for the rest: templars. They're a preexisting army designed to hunt mages so I think they'd function quite nicely as a sort of magic law enforcement. I'm aware people could get hurt by a mage that chooses to abuse their power, just as they could be murdered by a run-of-the-mill lunatic. However, it only seems reasonable that mages be punished after they've committed a crime just like everyone else. Besides, with the whole mage-templar war thing happening now I'm not sure if it can be argued anymore that the Circle as is saves the most lives, since there seems to be a lot of collateral in these mage rebellions. Collateral that might be avoided if they had more freedoms to begin with.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Hm...

 

How do you solve the issue of mages turning into abominations or abusing blood magic?

How will you detect it if mages are spread around everywhere?

How would any force respond in time?

What will you do when a mage turns abomination and slaughters an entire village and moves on before anyone can respond?

What will you do when a mage enthralls a village? Or usurps the local economy?

What will you do if people start demanding blood and form lynch mobs?

Instead of a small population of lyrium addicted, Chantry controlled Templars, all guards would undergo training in magical combative fields. Enchantments on weapons and armor could also be widely distributed relating to magical combat. Mages could also be able to volunteer to combat criminal mages. We know, even now, there are many mages who strongly oppose blood magic and anything pertaining to Tevinter. Even rabidly anti-Chantry, pro-freedom mages, like Anders, that we've seen don't advocate the techniques there. Thus, we have no real cause to believe mages aren't a source for combating magic related crime, themselves.

 

It should be strongly noted, lyrium is NOT required for all Templar techniques. Ingesting lyrium boost effectiveness of the techniques and to magic resistance, but it's not required at base. With all guards knowing these techniques, there wouldn't be such a dire need for the smaller force to have greater strength and, thus, there would likely be no need for them to ingest lyrium. It's noted on the Dragon Age wiki and through several sources that the Chantry encourages this addiction, in part, to have a tighter leash on their Templars. They have a vested interest in making it look as necessary as possible.

[Lillian]

I'm talking about impossible and highly impractical ideas.

Your suggestions might sound great at first, but there are many underlying problems and it would very soon blow up in your face.

 

So no, I'm afraid I cannot agree that you are making the system better overall.

 

Dean made a great post establishing an coherent analysis of why the Circle system exists and what it's goals are. If any system you replace it with doesn't cover all 4 goals as well, then it fails.

 

Furthermore, treating mages and magic like something that is solved by education, and turning Circles into Harry Potter-esque mage schools is a pipe dream.

Then the idea that magic can be easily stopped and everyone can be a templar (LYRIUM FOR EVERYONE)

Or that templars are a stupid idea as an organization (drinking lyrium is bad, M'Kay?). I do have to wonder if the Grey Wardens would have to be dismantled too, given that they too voluntarily ingest a substance that will drive them mad?

Or that anything other than a secular organizations overseeing the Circles is bad (religion is bad)

 

The people in TheDas aren't stupid. They don't fear magic and witches because of silly superstition or because the Chantry told them to - they fear them because they simply are that dangerous.

Not to mention all the false assumptions and myths regarding middle ages and the church (and there are oh-so many), carried over from RL into this game, and applying modern day conveniences and sensibilities to the world of TheDas.

Before hand, Dean's post was very interesting and informative, so thank you for the reference.

Anyways, I must admit, you make a lot of great points. All of our ideas either have the chance to blow up, or are bound to have a fallout. But, there are no real solutions to this, in essence. Keeping the current system isn't possible, but completely getting rid of it isn't possible either. Finding some middle-ground is required, but every idea is imperfect and dangerous.

But anyways, I respect your opinion on the matter, and it is very rational. However, not all of these ideas aren't actually impossible, and are somewhat reasonable, should you consider the current system and its blatant downfalls.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The idea that mages and normal people can't get along without one basically enslaving the other takes a seriously dark perspective on human nature. It's always possible that the goodness in people can outshine the darker elements and peace with only moderate hiccups can arise. Taking the stance that ONLY war can come between two people with differences isn't less misguided than thinking peace would be incredibly easy. I don't understand the idealism behind assuming domination by one side is the only possible outcome. It's entirely possible for two groups of people to consider each other's needs and safety and for the majority on both sides to work towards accomplishing a good balance. 

 

 

It's not dark. It's realistic.

The differences between mages and mundanes aren't superficial

Furthermore, even the most benevolent and well-meaning mages can destroy your entire town EVEN WHEN THEY DO NOT WANT IT. (Connor)

What perverse and immoral mages can do ti truly terrifying (Baroness)

 

With that in mind, any attempt for mages and mundanes to live together *WILL* result in casualties. And how one deals with them?

 

Well the Dalish and Chasind just accept abominations and mage-related deaths like a fact of life. Like a flood or avalanche. Didn't do them much good, given the last two dalish clans we have seen. Furthermore, such a stance/culture is impossible to apply to otehr parts of TheDas.

 

On an individual level, you can befriend a mage and feel no fear(But that is no guarantee he won't rip of your face tomorrow)

And that line of thinking can't be applied to the masses.

"If I can do/think X, then everyone can" is on a superficial level valid, but in reality NEVER works.

[Dean_the_Young]

Except, word of god (Gaider) states lyrium is needed for Templar abilities: DAO changed it as a gameplay vs lore issue.