600 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

A practice extablished by a Tevinter that makes corpses especially suitable for demonic possession.

Am I the only one reading "Evil Plan" all over it?

Maybe they can invade Orlais with an undead army? That'd be a sight to see.

[Lillian]

There have been rumors that the Mortalitasi also practice necromancy and are a death cult... It seems even other mages are scared of what they do. So, evil plan is very likely. 

[MisterJB]

There have been rumors that the Mortalitasi also practice necromancy and are a death cult... It seems even other mages are scared of what they do. So, evil plan is very likely. 

I would very much like if it was revealed the most proeminent members of the Nevarran Circle are basically Tevinter sleeper agents and turned the dead against the nevarran people.

Wouldn't that be a kick in the quad?

[Xilizhra]

I would very much like if it was revealed the most proeminent members of the Nevarran Circle are basically Tevinter sleeper agents and turned the dead against the nevarran people.

Wouldn't that be a kick in the quad?

That'd be silly. Turning them against Orlais would be far more efficient.

[Lillian]

Well, if Tevinter conquered Nevarra through that, they'd combine two nations whose wealth and power rivaled that of Orlais. Orlais would be far easier to conquer that way.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Any undead army controlled by Tevinter would likely be better put to use marching north.

[Helios969]

Sounds like one of the big issues is fear and suspicion accentuated by the current system.  Maybe any new system needs to create greater awareness among people in general.  This goes to my point that isolating mages is making the situation worse.  Yes, there will always be those who fear or loathe mages, but over time you can make that less prevalent or so widespread.

 

Hypothetical:  With a mage that has the power to incinerate a city is it better to have someone with that power who is well adjusted and sees him/herself as a fellow human - seeing the faces of their mother, father, sibling, or friends in the faces of the citizens?  Or someone who has been isolated from the rest of society not allowed contact with family or forge friendships outside the Circle?  Would the latter type be able to empathize with the everyday-types, or would they be as alien as Qunari are to most in Kirkwall?

[Lillian]

Sounds like one of the big issues is fear and suspicion accentuated by the current system.  Maybe any new system needs to create greater awareness among people in general.  This goes to my point that isolating mages is making the situation worse.  Yes, there will always be those who fear or loathe mages, but over time you can make that less prevalent or so widespread.

 

Hypothetical:  With a mage that has the power to incinerate a city is it better to have someone with that power who is well adjusted and sees him/herself as a fellow human - seeing the faces of their mother, father, sibling, or friends in the faces of the citizens?  Or someone who has been isolated from the rest of society not allowed contact with family or forge friendships outside the Circle?  Would the latter type be able to empathize with the everyday-types, or would they be as alien as Qunari are to most in Kirkwall?

You make a very, very good point here. Bravo!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sounds like one of the big issues is fear and suspicion accentuated by the current system.  Maybe any new system needs to create greater awareness among people in general.  This goes to my point that isolating mages is making the situation worse.  Yes, there will always be those who fear or loathe mages, but over time you can make that less prevalent or so widespread.

 

Hypothetical:  With a mage that has the power to incinerate a city is it better to have someone with that power who is well adjusted and sees him/herself as a fellow human - seeing the faces of their mother, father, sibling, or friends in the faces of the citizens?  Or someone who has been isolated from the rest of society not allowed contact with family or forge friendships outside the Circle?  Would the latter type be able to empathize with the everyday-types, or would they be as alien as Qunari are to most in Kirkwall?

 

You're making several assumptions:

 

a) that segregation leads to less empathy and more hate - there is actually no real correlation there and recent psychological studies show the opposite trend

 

That you can reliably create well-adjusted mages in any way to begin with, and that somehow that will solve all problems with mages.

[MisterJB]

Hypothetical:  With a mage that has the power to incinerate a city is it better to have someone with that power who is well adjusted and sees him/herself as a fellow human - seeing the faces of their mother, father, sibling, or friends in the faces of the citizens?  Or someone who has been isolated from the rest of society not allowed contact with family or forge friendships outside the Circle?  Would the latter type be able to empathize with the everyday-types, or would they be as alien as Qunari are to most in Kirkwall?

That is certainly true but it is an unreliable method. First, it requires the mages to be able to extablish a connection with random citizens on the street which is harder to accomplish than you think. What if the subject is, by nature, an introvert?

Then, it also requires the subject''s level of commitment to the community to be greater than anything else that can make a mage go bad or become an Abomination.

 

Needless to say, not only is this hard to accomplish, it is impossible to prove. I could say that I love everyone around only to get away from the Circle and, once outside, use magic for my benefit.

 

As for hard to accomplish...let's say that five year old Bethany is sick with the plague. And the only way to save her is to sacrifice five children in a blood magic ritual.

Malcolm Hawke is certainly a morally upstanding mage who has lived in Lothering for many years and probably made friends with the citizens.

Will that be enough to prevent him from using blood magic? Will he watch his daugther die knowing he could save her?

 

Ultimately, if I have to choose between relying upon the best intentions and self-control of people who can kill me with a thought or relying upon guard, distance and stone walls keeping me away from said people, I'm going with the latter 100% of the time.

[Dean_the_Young]

Clearly we need to ideologically indoctrinate the Mages so that they will be better people. None of this 'give them a choice' or freedom of conscience- Templar and Chantry education is pathetic compared to the potential of a deliberate ideological indoctrination regime. Take the children, break down their individual identities, remake them with Maoist-levels of dedication instruction and commitment to live by the indoctrinated morality. Then let them back out.

 

What could ever go wrong?

[Jack Druthers]

So basically to get the majority of a population to feel safer as to the threat of a minority who are born with a gift is to lock them away as children?  Sounds like a trial and sentence carried out on a "X could happen, so it's not up for discussion" basis to an innocent person who could later prove the people who were so ready to condemn them wrong.

 

So what happens if in DA:I and magic does "go nuts" as one of the Devs put it, and Sandal's prophecy does come true, who will the affected people turn to and expect help from - a number who are already well versed in magic and its dangers, and still expect them to be approachable.  What's the answer?  Lock up all those additional people with people they were previously so ready to condemn and stood by and did nothing in the name of fear and ignorance?  From what I have seen in the videos about the catastrophic events in DA:I this could be the case.  So what happens at the end of DA:I if it turns out that people without magical abilities are then the minority, do we turn the whole thing around and lock them all up instead?  A reformation of some description will have to happen.

[Lillian]

So basically to get the majority of a population to feel safer as to the threat of a minority who are born with a gift is to lock them away as children?  Sounds like a trial and sentence carried out on a "X could happen, so it's not up for discussion" basis to an innocent person who could later prove the people who were so ready to condemn them wrong.

 

So what happens if in DA:I and magic does "go nuts" as one of the Devs put it, and Sandal's prophecy does come true, who will the affected people turn to and expect help from - a number who are already well versed in magic and its dangers, and still expect them to be approachable.  What's the answer?  Lock up all those additional people with people they were previously so ready to condemn and stood by and did nothing in the name of fear and ignorance?  From what I have seen in the videos about the catastrophic events in DA:I this could be the case.  So what happens at the end of DA:I if it turns out that people without magical abilities are then the minority, do we turn the whole thing around and lock them all up instead?  A reformation of some description will have to happen.

I... Have nooooooo idea about Sandal's prophecy, really. There are so many prophecies around that are simply open to interpretation. But, we're not discussing the ASOIAF series, so let's not talk about the unreliability of prophecies. Anyways, Sandal's prophecy is very open to interpretation, yet it seems unlikely people will go all-magical if it comes true. If things went back to the way they were, AND the magic came back, then I'd assume that would mean elves would return to their greatness, possibly.

But aside from that, if the events of DA:I just destroyed the current population ratios, then perhaps some rational/ethical reform could really be done... Or, a magocracy could be formed. Whatever happens, I doubt that things in terms of this debacle will remain the same after the Veil tears are closed up.

[Dean_the_Young]

So basically to get the majority of a population to feel safer as to the threat of a minority who are born with a gift is to lock them away as children?  Sounds like a trial and sentence carried out on a "X could happen, so it's not up for discussion" basis to an innocent person who could later prove the people who were so ready to condemn them wrong.

 

Why it sounds like that to you, I don't know. For one thing, it's not an argument that favors you: the charge mages face is carrying around a live WMD at all times. Which they would be found guilty of, since it's true.

 

Of course, trying to rely on guilt and innocence is a sticky and not very useful proposition at best. Mages are guilty of being an exceptional public danger: that's a charge that doesn't need to be deliberately invoked to be true. It is also part of the significant legal grounds of regulation- seeking to prevent harm in advance by dictating acceptable policies and conditions to limit the opportunity for wrongdoing, rather than punishing transgressions reactively.

 

You'd be amazed how much of your legal code is like that, and how much in comes into play with circumstances that can cause high double/tripple digit casualties.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what happens if in DA:I and magic does "go nuts" as one of the Devs put it, and Sandal's prophecy does come true, who will the affected people turn to and expect help from - a number who are already well versed in magic and its dangers, and still expect them to be approachable.  What's the answer?  Lock up all those additional people with people they were previously so ready to condemn and stood by and did nothing in the name of fear and ignorance?  From what I have seen in the videos about the catastrophic events in DA:I this could be the case.  So what happens at the end of DA:I if it turns out that people without magical abilities are then the minority, do we turn the whole thing around and lock them all up instead?  A reformation of some description will have to happen.

 

 

These are a couple of different situations.

 

The first is 'a lot of people will die.' No real getting around that. People who can't be locked up may be tolerated (out of impotence if not kindness), or they might be killed. This can happen until the fluxations stop, or until it is unsustainable.

 

Second, no one acts 'in the name of fear and ignorance.' That's a very silly question: after all, many fears are based out of a lack of ignorance. You can fear what you don't know, but you can't fear what you don't know to fear: in Thedas, however, mages are feared based on what mages can and have done. That's knowledge, not ignorance.

 

Third... why would the logic of the mage restriction lead to mundane restriction? Mages aren't restricted because they're a minority- they're restricted because they're a minority with disproportionate power and danger. If Mages become a majority, a mundane minority is just a minoirty- mundanes aren't exceptionally powerful or dangerous, especially to a mage norm.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Isn't it really "if" the veil tear closes up? Allegedly, there was a time when it didn't even exist. There's always a possibility that it wont exist again someday. Maybe that's even a choice the Inquisitor has, to completely sunder it or to repair it. Who knows at this point?

[Lillian]

So... What I can get from most of all of this is that some people found their beliefs on morals and ehtics... While some found their beliefs on rational reasons... But there's never really an in-between on this...

[Dean_the_Young]

So... What I can get from most of all of this is that some people found their beliefs on morals and ehtics... While some found their beliefs on rational reasons... But there's never really an in-between on this...

 

Hm? Ethics is the in-between of this: ethics the structuring of moral on rational lines, such as putting it into rules and definitions. That's what ethical systems are: putting order on what is or is not moral.

 

The issue isn't whether ethics are based on rationality or emotion- the issue is that many people don't develop or understand their own ethical systems to identify weaknesses or resolve conflicts. One of the most common weaknesses is not developing an ethical hierarchy: children especially will try to equate all 'good' things together, and so are ill-prepared to decide when things they both put 'first' are pitted against each other.

 

This what the classical Bioware moral dilemma rests on: presenting a issue that pits common ethical priorities against each other and letting the player struggle with it. Ashley or Kaiden? Sending a serial killer to a corrupt judiciary or killing them yourself? Brainwash or annihalate the Heretics? Good moral delimmas will make a person pause because both options seem good (or bad).

 

Where the moral dilemma falls through is in contexts where the player has a clear priority and reason behind it. I like Kaiden and hate Ashley makes the Virmire choice pitifully easy. I think there's no legitimate reason to restrict someone for something they had no choice over. I favor whatever benefits (person/faction/goal).

[Lillian]

Hm? Ethics is the in-between of this: ethics the structuring of moral on rational lines, such as putting it into rules and definitions. That's what ethical systems are: putting order on what is or is not moral.

 

The issue isn't whether ethics are based on rationality or emotion- the issue is that many people don't develop or understand their own ethical systems to identify weaknesses or resolve conflicts. One of the most common weaknesses is not developing an ethical hierarchy: children especially will try to equate all 'good' things together, and so are ill-prepared to decide when things they both put 'first' are pitted against each other.

 

This what the classical Bioware moral dilemma rests on: presenting a issue that pits common ethical priorities against each other and letting the player struggle with it. Ashley or Kaiden? Sending a serial killer to a corrupt judiciary or killing them yourself? Brainwash or annihalate the Heretics? Good moral delimmas will make a person pause because both options seem good (or bad).

 

Where the moral dilemma falls through is in contexts where the player has a clear priority and reason behind it. I like Kaiden and hate Ashley makes the Virmire choice pitifully easy. I think there's no legitimate reason to restrict someone for something they had no choice over. I favor whatever benefits (person/faction/goal).

Mostly, I never really thought of ethics as the blend of morals and rationality, simply because my Philosophy class was a nightmare... But, it makes sense. It just seemed like many people were being rather... Unfeeling to the plight of mages. I have to admit; my comment was somewhat inspired by something you said in passing about what mages are guilty of. But, I supposed there are different ethical systems people adhere to that I simply find somewhat alien and/or harsh, so to say. But anyways, thanks for the insights, and this is definitely something to ponder.

[Master Warder Z_]

Mostly, I never really thought of ethics as the blend of morals and rationality, simply because my Philosophy class was a nightmare... But, it makes sense. It just seemed like many people were being rather... Unfeeling to the plight of mages. I have to admit; my comment was somewhat inspired by something you said in passing about what mages are guilty of. But, I supposed there are different ethical systems people adhere to that I simply find somewhat alien and/or harsh, so to say. But anyways, thanks for the insights, and this is definitely something to ponder.

 

I think the majority of the issue with comprehending the Thedosian Viewpoint on magic comes from how its so poorly understood by Western Audiences, for the most part i hear the circle compared to institutions done by a police state, not a Monarchy invoking a containment for the good of their populations, mages included. It to me is no more then another leper colony, except that its far better funded and nicer then any of those in history i ever was aware of.

[Lulupab]

I think the majority of the issue with comprehending the Thedosian Viewpoint on magic comes from how its so poorly understood by Western Audiences, for the most part i hear the circle compared to institutions done by a police state, not a Monarchy invoking a containment for the good of their populations, mages included. It to me is no more then another leper colony, except that its far better funded and nicer then any of those in history i ever was aware of.

 

Because western societies don't bludgeon people for something they might do. There is something as going too far and for every action there is a reaction. Prison revolts are quite common in our world too. Now we must however consider that there are criminals in prison while the mages are not criminals. That said if you are locking someone up for something that might happen then you better make sure they have much better life than rest of Thedas because you have taken their freedom away. The old system did not follow this. Mages are useful and should get the respect they deserve. There are many things to fix on both sides but taking a closer look we realize almost all of instances of mages using blood magic or becoming an abomination is out of desperateness therefore the Templars have much more to fix. I.E mentally unstable people like Meredith should never make it into templar ranks in the first place. The punishment of abusing your Templar rank should be very severe etc... I'm not blaming any side but the Templars had it coming, they failed on many levels and the seekers failed to notice it. As simple as that.

[Master Warder Z_]

Rassler that's my point, its ignorance of the audience and hyperbole they compare this to that sort of makes the entire concept amusing to me.

 

You think the Western world wouldn't do the same? Well they would, you know apart from dissecting a few of the mages in labs, trying to figure out how to magic worked, but apart from that? You would be lucky if there was a circle. At least in so far as how it was presented within DA, It could be so much worse, a barely funded sealed off enclave comes to mind, you know like Palestine.

 

Its just amusing to me is all, I mean i don't compare this to any particular ideological stance for that very reason, Because our world and Thedas i presume would react much the same way to magic, at least of it came with the same strings attached as it does in DA, it wouldn't be popular and those with it likely wouldn't be free. So to me any notion of how this goes against whatever the current Liberal is preaching from California makes me both wonder just how people can honestly believe that this wouldn't occur and or how does moral and personal sensibilities factor into determining how secure a Nation may be from the threat posed to it via magic?

 

Perhaps i merely give the matter to much thought.

[Lotion Soronarr]

So basically to get the majority of a population to feel safer as to the threat of a minority who are born with a gift is to lock them away as children?  Sounds like a trial and sentence carried out on a "X could happen, so it's not up for discussion" basis to an innocent person who could later prove the people who were so ready to condemn them wrong.

 

What you fail to realise that it isn't done just for the FEELING of safety. It actually IS safer.

 

Can you even guess the number of casualties if the Uldred Abomination brigade was let loose upon the country? More people would die in a single day than there are templars and mages in the Circle combined.

 

 

So what happens if in DA:I and magic does "go nuts" as one of the Devs put it, and Sandal's prophecy does come true, who will the affected people turn to and expect help from - a number who are already well versed in magic and its dangers, and still expect them to be approachable.  What's the answer?  Lock up all those additional people with people they were previously so ready to condemn and stood by and did nothing in the name of fear and ignorance?  From what I have seen in the videos about the catastrophic events in DA:I this could be the case.  So what happens at the end of DA:I if it turns out that people without magical abilities are then the minority, do we turn the whole thing around and lock them all up instead?  A reformation of some description will have to happen.

 

If that happens then the segregation system becomes unsustainable. It only works on minorities, given that resources and manpower required.

 

And if mages become a majority...it will be a field day for demons.

 

Frankly I don't see that happening as it would basically be an apocalypse. You'd have a LOT more abominations and due to the sundered veil they would be more powerful.

And given the lore power of a single abominations that would be horrible. Gameplay and story segregation has kept them weak, but there's a limit how far Bio can be before completely destroying their own lore

[Lillian]

This makes me curious as to how many abominations there are in the Tevinter Imperium. I mean, they have the best education in the world. Perhaps their society is good for stopping people from becoming abominations.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

In Tevinter there is a large population of unchained mages that practice blood magic and any other "forbidden" sort they want and their country has never been reported to have a massive amount of abominations. They're stable enough to fight off the Qunari, at least to constant stalemate, and it's been implied that the two countries could basically steamroll the rest of Thedas if they weren't constantly holding each other in check. 

 

So, how do they do it? How do they keep from collapsing due to abominations demolishing too much of the infrastructure and populace? This isn't an argument, I'm genuinely just interested in hearing some theories. They obviously must have some sort of a better system for dealing with this than we know about in the rest of Thedas. It's just the only logical explanation. 

[Lulupab]

Rassler that's my point, its ignorance of the audience and hyperbole they compare this to that sort of makes the entire concept amusing to me.

 

You think the Western world wouldn't do the same? Well they would, you know apart from dissecting a few of the mages in labs, trying to figure out how to magic worked, but apart from that? You would be lucky if there was a circle. At least in so far as how it was presented within DA, It could be so much worse, a barely funded sealed off enclave comes to mind, you know like Palestine.

 

Its just amusing to me is all, I mean i don't compare this to any particular ideological stance for that very reason, Because our world and Thedas i presume would react much the same way to magic, at least of it came with the same strings attached as it does in DA, it wouldn't be popular and those with it likely wouldn't be free. So to me any notion of how this goes against whatever the current Liberal is preaching from California makes me both wonder just how people can honestly believe that this wouldn't occur and or how does moral and personal sensibilities factor into determining how secure a Nation may be from the threat posed to it via magic?

 

Perhaps i merely give the matter to much thought.

 

We do not know how we would react, but if for example mages could stop blizzards and earthquakes then I promise you there would be zero instances of abuse or any sort of desperateness in place we choose to place them. They would become nobility. The confined nobility of earth.