38 réponses à ce sujet

[Inprea]

I can't say how wealthy the circles are. I often question the notion that they're as wealthy as nobles just because I don't see them wielding the kind of power that wealth brings with it. To me they'd pretty much be buying their freedom rather then fighting for it if they had that kind of money. You know the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules.

 

Still it is commonly believed they're rather wealthy because lyrium is expensive, magical reagents are expensive, their clothes are nice and perhaps other reasons. Though the first two are just the cost of operations and not an indication of profit. They're the things that could put the mages income into the negative.

 

If we do assume though that the mages are wealthy as an organization then that wealth has to come from somewhere. We learn from the tranquil at ostagar that the mages acquire some of their wealth from making magical items. Well the tranquil flat out says it's what provide the circle its wealth but are we going to assume that the mages provide no other service? The Codex on creation magic mentions that such mages are also in great demand as well so I'm going to believe they bring in some gold as well. Unless the circle sends out mages trained in healing as a charity. Which I do believe would be a good idea if the mages wanted to politic their way to freedom.

 

Anyway, if the circles are indeed wealthy, major buyers of lyrium and providing healing services wouldn't the best way to hurt the chantry and even the locals be to simply go on strike? The templars need lyrium in order to maintain their abilities and to handle their addiction. We see from the mage in the circle selling lyrium to the templars that their cravings are pretty bad considering how much he's willing and capable of paying to get more and he's not even the addict. 70 gold + a dagger a bit less then what you get from saving the beloved brother of a noble on just one mage. He even has some hush money to pay you if you blackmail him after that. Could the chantry afford to continue providing the templars enough lyrium if they suddenly couldn't sell some of it to the circle because the circle isn't buying?

 

It's not like it's a new idea either. Boycotting overpriced goods has been a means of peaceful resistance for a while. At least I'm pretty sure they did so in the American colonies when it came to tea. I'm guessing they did it before. The mages wouldn't even have to starve. They could build up a surplus of food in advance or I believe likely even use their magic to grow new crops. The entropy school seems like it'd be wonderful for breaking down compost, crap and other organic waste, while using creation magic to nurture crops.

 

So given all that rambling. Do you believe the mages could have obtained their freedom or at least shifted power more in their favor simply by refusing to work?

[Jaison1986]

If I'm not mistaken, the Chantry is the one that buys all the Lyrium (The templars use it even more then the mages). They are also the ones that buy all the food, clothing, and gear the mages need for their teachings. I suppose all the money that comes from enchanting and other services the mages provide goes straight to the Chantry as compensation. So an strike would probally not work considering the Chantry provides to the circle as much as the circle gives to them.

[Inprea]

What evidence do you have showing that the chantry buys the mages their food, clothing or gear? I don't recall seeing any such evidence. There is however the tranquil at ostagar who says, Surely we would not get buy on charity, when talking about the circle's wealth leading me to believe that the chantry doesn't provide anywhere near the amount of support you're suggesting.

[dragonflight288]

No. I don't. A strike worked once before, but chantry controlled circles are now more widespread than they were when the Nevarran Accord was first drafted, and templars have gained 1000 years of believing they have authority over mages by divine right. 

 

Also, multiple, non-mage sources make it clear that the Chantry and the templars merely tolerate magic or sees it as a curse, from Duncan who outright says it in the mage origin to a Warden who asks, to Ser Perth, Ser Bryant (who simply says they have more than swords to combat cursed magics,) the gossipers in Origins, Fenris sees magic itself as a stain on his very skin and soul, Lambert in Asunder making it clear that the Chantry has been preaching against mages for centuries when he contemplates that the Divine simply cannot undo in three days what the Chantry had been preaching for centuries and hoped she'd be replaced by one who would give him (and the templars) more power.

 

I actually think that if the mages had tried another protest, it would've had the same results anyway. There was too much tension built up over too long period of time.

 

 

What evidence do you have showing that the chantry buys the mages their food, clothing or gear? I don't recall seeing any such evidence. There is however the tranquil at ostagar who says, Surely we would not get buy on charity, when talking about the circle's wealth leading me to believe that the chantry doesn't provide anywhere near the amount of support you're suggesting.

 

I agree. The tranquil at Ostagar says that the Circle doesn't get by on charity, and the non-mage codex on tranquil say they run the shops that provide the circle its wealth. No evidence exists that the Chantry supplies the circles with anything other than lyrium since they control the lyrium trade. 

[Inprea]

No. I don't. A strike worked once before, but chantry controlled circles are now more widespread than they were when the Nevarran Accord was first drafted, and templars have gained 1000 years of believing they have authority over mages by divine right. 

 

Also, multiple, non-mage sources make it clear that the Chantry and the templars merely tolerate magic or sees it as a curse, from Duncan who outright says it in the mage origin to a Warden who asks, to Ser Perth, Ser Bryant (who simply says they have more than swords to combat cursed magics,) the gossipers in Origins, Fenris sees magic itself as a stain on his very skin and soul, Lambert in Asunder making it clear that the Chantry has been preaching against mages for centuries when he contemplates that the Divine simply cannot undo in three days what the Chantry had been preaching for centuries and hoped she'd be replaced by one who would give him (and the templars) more power.

 

I actually think that if the mages had tried another protest, it would've had the same results anyway. There was too much tension built up over too long period of time.

 

 

That's fare. It would require a united front for such an effort to have any hope of success. One person boycotting isn't going to shake things up much. So you believe war was the only way mages had any real shot at improving their condition?

 

Well I'm not entirely prepared to give up on the notion of a boycott but it's not as if we can test it. I will say that if such peaceful means of protest wouldn't have any effect and brought on violence it'd make the circles seem even more like slavery.

[Jaison1986]

Apart from the lyrium trade, we are not certain who buys what for the circle. I never said my statement was fact. But when the tranquil at Ostagar said that enchantment provide the circle it's wealth, he doesn't bother to say what happens to the money they earn or how it's used. So unless we have an official source, there is no way to know how the economy of the circle works exactly.

 

And as for the strike, remeber the dragon age world is an medieval setting were conflicts and differences are usually solved with violence and an iron grip. Unlike our world were human rights and diplomacy became important traits of society. So if the circle decided to do something like that, I wouldn't be surprised if Chantry found that enough of an excuse to declare them going rogue for disobeying the Chantry, and call for an annulment. Remember the Rivain circle was slaughtered because they didn't followed chantry laws to the letter.

[Inprea]

Apart from the lyrium trade, we are not certain who buys what for the circle. I never said my statement was fact. But when the tranquil at Ostagar said that enchantment provide the circle it's wealth, he doesn't bother to say what happens to the money they earn or how it's used. So unless we have an official source, there is no way to know how the economy of the circle works exactly.

 

And as for the strike, remeber the dragon age world is an medieval setting were conflicts and differences are usually solved with violence and an iron grip. Unlike our world were human rights and diplomacy became important traits of society. So if the circle decided to do something like that, I wouldn't be surprised if Chantry found that enough of an excuse to declare them going rogue for disobeying the Chantry, and call for an annulment. Remember the Rivain circle was slaughtered because they didn't followed chantry laws to the letter.

 

We see examples of that during the game actually. At the tower you come upon a book that was purchased by the mages from a traveling merchant. The book is a fraud mind you but it was the mages who bought it. Well I'm basing this on how angry the mages where over wasting their money in the letters and my doubt that the templars would buy three magic books that are meant to help a mage obtain great power.

 

There is also the illegal lyrium trade going on within the circle. You need some seed money to start that kind of business.

 

I believe it's far more likely that the tranquil handle buying and selling the goods the circle needs rather then the chantry. That and of course traveling merchants that visit the circle rather then the chantry supplying them with such goods. There is at least some support for the tranquil handling such business. I can't see any evidence of the circle delivering food or clothes to the circle.

 

As for the difference in era. That's true. However, the DA world isn't our history either. Just look at how women are treated and thought of differently. Besides as Dragonflight mentioned this has worked for the mages before. When they boarded themselves up inside the chantry. Even if Dragon doesn't believe it'd work again it has before.

[JCFR]

An interesting proposition but hard to be proven.

Int he first it's not common known, how far the chantry is involved in the management of the circle. From what it seems of the Orign-Campaign  of the Mage-class and the codex, the first enchanter is more like a superviser with higherups he as to report to  and rules he can't change but has to make sure they're kept.

So all the money they may earn through their services may go to the Chantry.

 

Not to forget, a single strike would need the mages to be united (or at least a majority) but as we see in the campaign of origins, they're quite divided - some stay true to the chantry-system while others wish for liberty.  Not to forget one of the reasons for the chantrys influence and power is their authority over the circles.

And it's rather difficult to buy your freedom if the problem is with the commonality and their fear toward magic in general. It would lead to mobs starting riots and massacre all mages they could get their hands  on and those who are suspected to be mages in disguise or have te potential to become a mage.

So i don't think freedom is a matter of money and  can be bought.

[TK514]

Given that the only goods the Circle reliably supplies are enchanting services, and that money seems to go to the Circles themselves, a 'strike' would effect absolutely no one except the Circle Mages themselves. The Templars and the Chantry are already stingy about letting the Mages out and about to conduct any business, so a self-imposed cessation of all Circle business would actually be preferable to the organizations you are ostensibly attempting to extort.

Honestly, I think such a move would have exactly the opposite of it's intended effect.

[Dean_the_Young]

Given that the only goods the Circle reliably supplies are enchanting services, and that money seems to go to the Circles themselves, a 'strike' would effect absolutely no one except the Circle Mages themselves. The Templars and the Chantry are already stingy about letting the Mages out and about to conduct any business, so a self-imposed cessation of all Circle business would actually be preferable to the organizations you are ostensibly attempting to extort.

Honestly, I think such a move would have exactly the opposite of it's intended effect.

 

So what you're saying is that a mage strike would have been an amazingly awesome idea for all involved?

[TK514]

So what you're saying is that a mage strike would have been an amazingly awesome idea for all involved?

The Templars would actively welcome it, to be sure.

"Wait. You want to cut off the limited outside access you already have, cut your personal funding to zero, and reduce an entire Fraternity to either apoplexy or broken sobbing?

...

Great! You want to help us lock all the doors, or...? Right, right. 'Strike'. Hee Hee. You go ahead and relax, we'll take care of the rest."

[Dean_the_Young]

The Templars would actively welcome it, to be sure.

"Wait. You want to cut off the limited outside access you already have, cut your personal funding to zero, and reduce an entire Fraternity to either apoplexy or broken sobbing?

...

Great! You want to help us lock all the doors, or...? Right, right. 'Strike'. Hee Hee. You go ahead and relax, we'll take care of the rest."

 

Reminds me of this comic.  "We'll do even less until our demands are met!"

[Inprea]

Given that the only goods the Circle reliably supplies are enchanting services, and that money seems to go to the Circles themselves, a 'strike' would effect absolutely no one except the Circle Mages themselves. The Templars and the Chantry are already stingy about letting the Mages out and about to conduct any business, so a self-imposed cessation of all Circle business would actually be preferable to the organizations you are ostensibly attempting to extort.

Honestly, I think such a move would have exactly the opposite of it's intended effect.

 

What proof do you have that is the only goods the circle reliably supplies? The codex mentions that mages trained in the creation school are in great demand and while it says it requires the most finesse of any school to master you don't have to be a master to practice it. Then there is the amount of wealth that the circle gains from enchanted items. A high cost means in most cases that supply is low compared to demand and if there is a high demand there is a reason for it. How do you justify the high demand and price people are willing to pay with the notion that people wouldn't feel its loss?

 

There is also the notion that a circle gets a good chunk of its money from the lyrium trade. Now given that the circle also pays the templars. To my knowledge at least. Who do you assume is buying this lyrium? The dwarfs sure wouldn't. The only organization I know of that can make ready use of lyrium is the circle and apparently a smith trained by the dwarfs.

[TK514]

The Circle does not pay the Templars or provide them Lyrium. If they did, there would be zero reason for a Mage revolt. The Chantry controls the legal lyrium trade on the surface. Full stop.

And if the Mages stop providing services, enchanting or otherwise, to the Nobility, who does that hurt? Not the Chantry that gets its power and wealth from the worshipping masses. Not the Templars, who are entirely funded and supplied by the Chantry. Oh, right, the only people it hurts are the Nobles who don't get their goods and Mages who don't get their pay AND damage their reputation in the process.

[Inprea]

The Circle does not pay the Templars or provide them Lyrium. If they did, there would be zero reason for a Mage revolt. The Chantry controls the legal lyrium trade on the surface. Full stop.

And if the Mages stop providing services, enchanting or otherwise, to the Nobility, who does that hurt? Not the Chantry that gets its power and wealth from the worshipping masses. Not the Templars, who are entirely funded and supplied by the Chantry. Oh, right, the only people it hurts are the Nobles who don't get their goods and Mages who don't get their pay AND damage their reputation in the process.

 

That was a typo on my part. I meant chantry.

 

There is also the notion that a circle gets a good chunk of its money from the lyrium trade. Now given that the chantry also pays the templars. To my knowledge at least. Who do you assume is buying this lyrium? The dwarfs sure wouldn't. The only organization I know of that can make ready use of lyrium is the circle and apparently a smith trained by the dwarfs.

 

What evidence do you have that mages only provide enchanting and healing services to the nobility? The healers we've seen sure don't seem to be providing their services to the nobility. Anerin the healer wasn't and neither was Anders. They were providing it to the common people.

 

What proof do you have that the chantry gets the bulk of its wealth from its worshipers rather then controlling the lyrium trade? Lyrium is after all the most valuable metal there is in Thedas.

[wcholcombe]

Prior to Kirkwall, I think it would have had potential.

 

After Kirkwall when Templars and mages are both on edge with those events and the huge increase in apostates fleeing the circles, no.  Just as it wasn't the right time for Fiona to call for her vote.

[Dean_the_Young]

That was a typo on my part. I meant chantry.

 

There is also the notion that a circle gets a good chunk of its money from the lyrium trade. Now given that the chantry also pays the templars. To my knowledge at least. Who do you assume is buying this lyrium? The dwarfs sure wouldn't. The only organization I know of that can make ready use of lyrium is the circle and apparently a smith trained by the dwarfs.

 

What evidence do you have that mages only provide enchanting and healing services to the nobility? The healers we've seen sure don't seem to be providing their services to the nobility. Anerin the healer wasn't and neither was Anders. They were providing it to the common people.

 

What proof do you have that the chantry gets the bulk of its wealth from its worshipers rather then controlling the lyrium trade? Lyrium is after all the most valuable metal there is in Thedas.

 

The Chantry is buying the Lyrium. It uses some itself for the Templars. It may sell some to the Circles as well as a middle-man, or arrange their deals, but the mages cease orders then the Chantry will just buy less from the Dwarves.

 

The mage shops we see sell rarer, expensive goods that only the upper classes would easily afford. Neither of the healers you mention were providing healing to the common people on the behalf of the Circle or via legitimate channels: both were apostates taking refuge with people who were protecting them.

 

The burden of proof for Chantry finances would be on you in this case: charity and tithes are established ways for religions to get money and funds, and we know the Chantry does solicit donations. The value of the lyrium trade has never been defined in objective or relative terms, and has not been raised as the Chantry's major money source: an exceptional claim that it is will require exceptional backing.

[wcholcombe]

The Chantry is buying the Lyrium. It uses some itself for the Templars. It may sell some to the Circles as well as a middle-man, or arrange their deals, but the mages cease orders then the Chantry will just buy less from the Dwarves.

 

The mage shops we see sell rarer, expensive goods that only the upper classes would easily afford. Neither of the healers you mention were providing healing to the common people on the behalf of the Circle or via legitimate channels: both were apostates taking refuge with people who were protecting them.

 

The burden of proof for Chantry finances would be on you in this case: charity and tithes are established ways for religions to get money and funds, and we know the Chantry does solicit donations. The value of the lyrium trade has never been defined in objective or relative terms, and has not been raised as the Chantry's major money source: an exceptional claim that it is will require exceptional backing.

In the infamous other thread, there is a link showing where Gaider said that money from the sale of enchantments and such goes directly to the Circles and not to the Chantry in any way.

[Dean_the_Young]

In the infamous other thread, there is a link showing where Gaider said that money from the sale of enchantments and such goes directly to the Circles and not to the Chantry in any way.

 

Right. Which is why the idea of a mage strike in protest to the Chantry is amusing rather than effective.

 

Now, the real question of financial relationships between the Chantry and Circle is (a) whether the Circle sales cover the Circle costs, and ( whether the Chantry sells lyrium or other resources to the Circles at a profit. There's also a big question of ©, of how the Templars are provided for.

 

In (a), the fact that the Circle doesn't go entirely on charity from the Chantry doesn't mean that it is self-sufficient. Circle sales could compose the budget, a part of the budget, or all of the budget and then surplus. There's also the chance of bad business cycles, bad business practices, and economic failures, on top of the fact that the entire Circle economy is one of voluntary participation which means mages only work for profit if they want to. Given that the Chantry is likely a provider of last resort (it's hard to imagine them let the mages starve for lack of money), there's a very real chance that the Chantry actually subsidizes a Circle system that operates at a loss.

 

In (, the Chantry could possibly make money back from the Circles if they sell the lyrium to the Circles, rather than letting the Circles buy directly from the dwarves or providing a ration of lyrium to the Circles. This relationship would probably only sustain itself if the Circles are profitable, lest the Chantry just subsidize the Circles elsewhere. There's been no mention of the Chantry keeping influence over the Circles by driving them into debt, but how the mages buy Lyrium could in turn help support the Chantry.

 

 

In ©, the whole financial/logistics of the Templars is a big black box. Supplying armies is expensive. Making and maintaining arms and equipment isn't cheap. Recruits have to be fed, cared for, and even paid. And it's not even clear where the money comes from, though we know that it isn't via Circle commerce.

 

Personally, I suspect that the Templars are supported by charity and taxes/tithes collected from the public and Andrastian nations. There isn't anything to support or refute this, but it does make sense and wouldn't be particularly controversial: financial contributions can be turned into salaries easily enough, while paying tithes in goods and supplies would be a reasonable way for less-developed economies to pay in kind rather than by currency. A farming economy and cottage industry provides food and clothing. A local blacksmith pays his taxes by servicing Templar equipment and making them so many swords. Religious tithes to support the Chantry also support the Templars who support the Chantry as well. And so on.

[Inprea]

The Chantry is buying the Lyrium. It uses some itself for the Templars. It may sell some to the Circles as well as a middle-man, or arrange their deals, but the mages cease orders then the Chantry will just buy less from the Dwarves.

 

The mage shops we see sell rarer, expensive goods that only the upper classes would easily afford. Neither of the healers you mention were providing healing to the common people on the behalf of the Circle or via legitimate channels: both were apostates taking refuge with people who were protecting them.

 

The burden of proof for Chantry finances would be on you in this case: charity and tithes are established ways for religions to get money and funds, and we know the Chantry does solicit donations. The value of the lyrium trade has never been defined in objective or relative terms, and has not been raised as the Chantry's major money source: an exceptional claim that it is will require exceptional backing.

 

How much profit do they make from the lyrium they sell do the circle as compared to the cost of the lyrium they give to the templars? It's possible that the bulk of the lyrium goes to the templars while the lyrium sold to the mages pays for both the circle's use of it and the templar's. It is however possible that it doesn't. If it does then a strike would have some very sharp teeth as sustaining the templars would become a drain.

 

Just because the upper class are the only ones that can easily afford it doesn't mean others don't buy it. Look at the family sword from Redcliff the one a child wants to use to avenge his parents. Even if a person can't easily afford something that doesn't mean they won't invest in it. Anders and Anerin may not be working on behalf of the circle but those are also the only mages we see actively practicing healing magic. Other then that there is the codex on creation magic which mentions its demand. They're the only examples or closest thing to examples that we can draw information from.

 

In relative terms the lyrium trade is worth more then half the wealth of Orzammar. http://dragonage.wik...x_entry:_Lyrium Now what says I have to prove that the chantry gets the bulk of its wealth from selling the extremely valuable rare metal it controls the supply of anymore then someone who wants to say the chantry gets the bulk of its wealth from charity?

[Wulfram]

Are we assuming the Tranquil are going along with such a strike?  Because I'm not sure if they would.  Though it's tough to say - we haven't really got a coherent picture of how Tranquil think.

 

Mages don't really seem to do a whole lot during normal times.  They're not totally without a negotiating position, I'd guess, healing at least is a valuable service, but I can't see them achieving any sort of major change, just a few tweaks to terms and conditions

 

Striking during those moments of true crisis when the mages military power is actually needed - a Blight or a Qunari invasion - has more chance of gaining significant concessions, but also a lot more risky - both because the mages really don't want the other guys to win, and because they'll create a lot of ill will, and undermine one of the chief reasons they are shown their current level of tolerance, limited as that tolerance is.

[Laughing_Man]

In the infamous other thread, there is a link showing where Gaider said that money from the sale of enchantments and such goes directly to the Circles and not to the Chantry in any way.

 

Hmm... I don't know what Gaider said, but that does not sound very logical to me.

 

The Templars have or had the last word regarding any meaningful decisions inside the circles.

The circles may get the money, but the circles "belong" to the Chantry and are controlled by the Templars.

That means that when it comes to the question of how to use the money, the mages probably need Templar approval before doing any significant changes.

 

Total control of this kind means that should the Templars decide to take the money, no one will have the authority to stop them.

 

 

@OP

Regarding the original question, I think that a strike wouldn't have been too effective.

The mages would have been the first to suffer, with no money entering the coffers, how do you buy food, clothing,

and all the various other items mages use all the time?

[TK514]

EDIT : Others said it better.

[TK514]

Hmm... I don't know what Gaider said, but that does not sound very logical to me.
 
The Templars have or had the last word regarding any meaningful decisions inside the circles.
The circles may get the money, but the circles "belong" to the Chantry and are controlled by the Templars.
That means that when it comes to the question of how to use the money, the mages probably need Templar approval before doing any significant changes.
 
Total control of this kind means that should the Templars decide to take the money, no one will have the authority to stop them.
 
 
@OP
Regarding the original question, I think that a strike wouldn't have been too effective.
The mages would have been the first to suffer, with no money entering the coffers, how do you buy food, clothing,
and all the various other items mages use all the time?

If this were the case that Templars/Chantry controlled the Circle funds, there would be no point to the Lucrosian fraternity.

[Inprea]

Hmm... I don't know what Gaider said, but that does not sound very logical to me.

 

The Templars have or had the last word regarding any meaningful decisions inside the circles.

The circles may get the money, but the circles "belong" to the Chantry and are controlled by the Templars.

That means that when it comes to the question of how to use the money, the mages probably need Templar approval before doing any significant changes.

 

Total control of this kind means that should the Templars decide to take the money, no one will have the authority to stop them.

 

 

@OP

Regarding the original question, I think that a strike wouldn't have been too effective.

The mages would have been the first to suffer, with no money entering the coffers, how do you buy food, clothing,

and all the various other items mages use all the time?

 

Well I spoke a little on growing food but alright.

 

It doesn't seem like a popular solution. Ah well. That'll teach me to try to come up with something none violent. Back to wondering if a mage could find a way to cause lyrium to expend its energy quickly especially while inside of a human body. That or if perhaps a bacteria could be exposed to lyrium such that it developed the ability metabolize it and would become even more virulent inside the body of someone who consumed lyrium.