937 réponses à ce sujet

[tcn-talon]

As in topic. After the dust has settled and the last DLC is in the can, do people still believe the ending to ME3 was a hallucination cooked up by Shepard's indoctrination? Just curious.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Some do. As long as they don't run around throwing it at people, it's theirs to believe.

 

Despite their obnoxiousness, I never begrudged them of their ability to believe in it. The ending was bad enough to warrant some serious mental and logic leaps.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I have no idea what people believe. I think it makes for a great ending, and I like it.

 

I don't believe for a second that it was intended for people to interpret the ending as explained by IT.

 

I do believe that the reason there are so many little things that support the idea is that they are remnants of an earlier incarnation of the ending that actually did resemble IT in some ways, but that was ultimately dropped in favour of the ending we have now.

 

I also believe that it is extremely foolish of me to post in a thread discussing the ending of ME 3, and I should probably reconsider submitting this.

[DeinonSlayer]

Never did, still don't.

If Bioware had half the subtlety that IT'ers ascribe to them, it'd have been evident elsewhere in the writing.

[DrBlingzle]

At the start I thought it was a genuinely clever idea. After it was announced that the extended cut wouldn't include though the people who still believed it just seemed a bit desperate. Now its completely ridiculous for anyone to still believe it.   

[Invisible Man]

I don't, and never have, and hope I never will. if IT becomes canon, it also means bioware sold us a game that doesn't have an ending. and if that becomes a trend I'd shoot myself in the face.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Yes. I really do believe the ending is simply a test to check if Shepard still wants to destroy the Reapers.

 

There is obviously something not entirely real about the ending. The white dream halo appears three times after we get shot by Harbinger. The only other moments we see these halos is at the start and end of the dreams, and when Shep goes in and out of the Geth concensus.

 

I'm just not sure how exactly Bioware intended it.

 

If I simply go by what ME3 seems to convey, then the conclusion is that the Reapers weren't actually defeated (not even in destroy), and the only result is whether Shepard could resist the attempt or not.

 

The breath scene still comes off as a huge cliffhanger, even after EC.

 

I do believe that the Reapers meant to destroy Shepard upon picking destroy, that's why Shepard dies in every possible scenario, even in destroy, except when there is an exceptional amount of war assets, in which case Shepard can survive. This seems to indicate that somehow Shepard had enough war assets to protect him/her.

 

Harbinger: "They will succumb and ascend, or they will be annihilated."

 

Shepard could be either in London or on the Citadel in IT. The only condition for IT to work is if the decision chamber was a full blown illusion, in which case the explosion upon shooting the tube didn't actually happen. It's possible it's just what Shepard's mind made of the Reapers' attempt to kill Shepard upon choosing to destroy. However, the decison chamber bears a remarkable resemblance to the scene at the beacon down in London. Even the wheels of one of the Makos/transports seem to be present in the decision chamber, cleverly worked into the surroundings. And then there's the tree reflections on the catwalks, which seem to be a direct reference to the forest of the dreams.

 

For the longest time I have believed that an eventual DLC or next game would address the ending in some way, but all we got was huge amounts of hints in Leviathan, Citadel and even Omega. People say Leviathan disproves IT, but all it does is foreshadow the existence of the intelligence, while at the same time demonstrating and explaining that the Reapers actually do posses the power to create full visual illusions in Shep's mind. Leviathan manages to let Shepard believe (s)he was outside of the diving mech, that (s)he saw people (s)he knew, and also showed multiple objects and diagrams. Not only that, the Reapers have "perfected" the enthrallment ability to indoctrination.

 

However, the DLC only hinted at things and never really gave clarity (although the claw game in the Citadel DLC is a huge giveaway that only the destroy ending wins), and Bioware keeps saying "No more Shepard", and I don't want to keep believing that they are lying.

 

So that leaves the question what the intent was.

 

Do we actually lose in every scenario, and is it all just a beautiful vision before dying? (as described by the Volus from Noveria in an e-mail)? Then why the breath scene?

 

Was it indoctrination, was Shepard actually on the Citadel, but was it just the catalyst that was a hallucination, but did Shepard actually use the Crucible to destroy the Reapers? Then why the breath scene? How could Shepard possibly survive that explosion that is kilometers in diameter, if we measure it by the length of the Citadel arms?

 

Was our victory implied by the breath scene? Does it mean we beat indoctrination? Do we need to view it as art and assume that what followed was that Shepard defeated the Reapers? If so, that's hugely dissatisfying.

 

The only reason I can come up with for Bioware to not follow up on the ending (if IT was intended), is that they don't want to invalidate the choices of the people who didn't pick destroy. I personally disagree with this. If Bioware actually tricked players into siding with the Reapers, then a big "gotcha" would go a long way to redeem their reputation, although I'm sure many would hate them for it.

[AlexMBrennan]

After the dust has settled and the last DLC is in the can,

Hang on just a second there - I'm sure you'll find people who continue to maintain that Bioware will release DLC revealing IT to be true next week.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Doesn't Hackett's monologue disprove it? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it disproves it. 

[Reorte]

Doesn't Hackett's monologue disprove it? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it disproves it. 

The problem with indoctrination is that you can say absolutely anything that contradicts your position is a delusion casued by indoctrination.

 

In the early days I thought it was a possibility, although not a very likely one. Now, no.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Doesn't Hackett's monologue disprove it? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it disproves it. 

 

Breath scene comes after.

[Iakus]

Some people do still believe in IT.  Though they have mostly been exiled from the forums by the Powers That Be.

 

Personally, I never thought it was intended by Bioware.  Though if they decided to run with it, I could have rolled with it.

[shodiswe]

No, never did, thought it sounded crazy and delusional. Almost like some kind of cult.

 

 

 

@ Doomsdaydevice;  Why would it be important to test that? What's the point? Whats the importance?

I can see how it's imporant to end the killing and save people. It's Shepards job to stop the Reaper harvest and save galactic civilisation.

Is revenge or vengeance on those who had no choice but to obey really that imporant?

 

At the end of WW2 some people could have choosen a pyric victory and killed a few million extra just to make sure vengeance was delivered. Probably wouldn't have made the world a better place, I'm pretty sure of that. Same most likely applies here.

[dafyddr]

A long and interesting post ...

There are a lot of weird things about the ending (just redid it after a hiatus of about a year). I'd love for them to talk about whether any of this was deliberate, or from cut aspects, or something else. You *can* take all of the epilogue as wish fulfillment from a dying Shepard, but what does it mean for the mission?

 

Of course complaints that IT means that there was no ending are kind of silly since ME3 pretty much makes ME2 a 'waste' of time.

 

I guess this is why what I've heard on the subject is that MEnext will be miles away in time/space from Shepard. We just have to wait for Casey's memoirs

[DoomsdayDevice]

@shodiswe:

 

It's not about revenge. If the Reapers weren't defeated, then the story isn't over.

 

Look, we get a breath scene and then an epilogue that starts with "Did that all really happen?" and ends with "One more story."

 

I don't want to believe Bioware is lying about the next game, and I don't, but they sure suggested a lot of things.

[von uber]

I could've believed that the last section with the catalyst is a battle in sheps mind as she tries to activate the console.
But that doesn't tie in with the EC slides and narration, so..

[ImaginaryMatter]

The problem with indoctrination is that you can say absolutely anything that contradicts your position is a delusion casued by indoctrination.

 

That's the main problem that I find with IT, it points to anything that is odd or surreal as signs of Indoctrination -- when that kind of stuff happens all the time.

 

Like no one thinks Jacob's LM back in ME2 is a conspiracy because the ship carried a bunch of thermal clips before they were invented.

[DeinonSlayer]

That's the main problem that I find with IT, it points to anything that is odd or surreal as signs of Indoctrination -- when that kind of stuff happens all the time.
 
Like no one thinks Jacob's LM back in ME2 is a conspiracy because the ship carried a bunch of thermal clips before they were invented.

While we're on that note, why would there be medigel on the Geth Dreadnought?

[ImaginaryMatter]

While we're on that note, why would there be medigel on the Geth Dreadnought?

 

The Geth are hospitible towards people invading their ships?

 

I did hear a theory once that the muscle looking things on the Geth behave similarly to organic tissue and that the medigel could also be used on Geth to stop them from leaking space oil (or whatever), which is why they use it. It's very speculative but that's the closest thing to a story answer that I can think of.

[von uber]

Why would geth spaceships have walkways and stairs given that they could make the ships fully automated with no need for mobile platform access?

[shodiswe]

The Geth were created to use mobileplatforms, I guess it's hard for them to let go of their history and colture..... Who knows, maybe they would have changed if you left them alone for a few milenia with that dysonsphere.

 

After the Reapercode upgrade I doubt most of the population will care for the sphere, they will be too bussy experiencing their new freedom. Assuming they havn't been permanently killed of.

[DoomsdayDevice]

That's the main problem that I find with IT, it points to anything that is odd or surreal as signs of Indoctrination -- when that kind of stuff happens all the time.

 

Like no one thinks Jacob's LM back in ME2 is a conspiracy because the ship carried a bunch of thermal clips before they were invented.

 

Nah, that's not really true. That's just some individuals who do that, and the people who believe in the Choose Wisely interpretation.

 

In the IT thread (back when it was still up), we once did a categorization of possible evidence we found, and all voted on how important we thought each piece was. That weeded out most of the weak clues (things that could easily be attributed to game mechanics), and left only the clues that are generally accepted as important. I should have a link somewhere.

[dorktainian]

Indoctrination theory?  Of course Shepards Indoctrinated, but he's not alone.  The game worked it's magic on those of a blue or green persuasion as well.  

[Bronze65]

IT Theory is what explains the ending the best. Otherwise it doesn't make sense one bit.

[AlanC9]

Well, looks like the OP got his answer.