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Do people still believe Indoctrination Theory?


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#401
masster blaster

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Simple They'll do what they want. Some folks will be OK, others will ragequit.

They can choose to, yet if they are smart, they would treat the fans with such high regard. Though they can choose to ignore the fans, without a good majority of fans on board, and depending on how the story is being writ in, then it will either hurt  Bioware, or keep it as what they are in now. Personally idc anymore.  ME3's ending was poorly writ-in, without regards to IT "If" they ever wing with it. The only ending that imo I find bearable is " Destroy:" but the breath scene ruins the mood, and leaves the players to wonder how will Shepard make it out alive. It's not like anyone is going to just magically know where Shepard is at, and how much blood Shepard has lost, and will be loosing as the rescue team comes.



#402
Iakus

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Simple They'll do what they want. Some folks will be OK, others will ragequit.

 

Yeah, that wasn't condescending at all.



#403
bfoore

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Indoctrination Theory makes the most sense.


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#404
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IT does, yet other can argue, yet I am for IT.



#405
AlanC9

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They can choose to, yet if they are smart, they would treat the fans with such high regard. Though they can choose to ignore the fans, without a good majority of fans on board, and depending on how the story is being writ in, then it will either hurt  Bioware, or keep it as what they are in now. Personally idc anymore.  ME3's ending was poorly writ-in, without regards to IT "If" they ever wing with it. The only ending that imo I find bearable is " Destroy:" but the breath scene ruins the mood, and leaves the players to wonder how will Shepard make it out alive. It's not like anyone is going to just magically know where Shepard is at, and how much blood Shepard has lost, and will be loosing as the rescue team comes.

 

Who are "the fans," exactly?



#406
AlanC9

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Yeah, that wasn't condescending at all.

 

I don't do very well at pretending to respect stuff I don't respect, so I've given up trying. A man's got to be aware of his limitations.



#407
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Who are "the fans," exactly?

Anyone really. There is no " TRUE FAN". It just depends on how people view Bioware, their products, and what the story is being told to the players and if it makes sense or not.



#408
AlanC9

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Right. And that's why IT is toast.



#409
masster blaster

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Right. And that's why IT is toast.

Who is to say? Nobody knows but BIoware. We all try to see what Bioware is planning or intended. Some say the endings are as they are good or bad, others like IT think there might be more. Though for now there is no solid things about ME4 that affect IT at all in a good or bad way.



#410
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I don't do very well at pretending to respect stuff I don't respect, so I've given up trying. A man's got to be aware of his limitations.

Sounds more like Rifneno. Be careful about that.



#411
AlanC9

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Rifneno? What's that?

 

Anyway, if you want to keep believing IT, that's your business.



#412
masster blaster

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Rifneno? What's that?

 

Anyway, if you want to keep believing IT, that's your business.

He is a user who doesn't respect other peoples stuff.

 

Not that I believe in IT as I did two years ago, but some part of me hopes it  is, or can be true but if not then oh well. I just won't feel like Buying any ME games. DA on the other hand or any new projects sure, but if they mess DA:I up then I might want to just stop playing Bioware games for a couple of years.

 

But thank you.



#413
Iakus

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I don't do very well at pretending to respect stuff I don't respect, so I've given up trying. A man's got to be aware of his limitations.

 

So, wait, you don't respect anyone who doesn't toe Bioware's line concerning the endings?

 

That's...sad :(


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#414
teh DRUMPf!!

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He is a user who doesn't respect other peoples stuff.

 

I thought Rinferno was a she? No man can possibly be that bitchy.



#415
ImaginaryMatter

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I thought Rinferno was a she? No man can possibly be that bitchy.

 

Sometimes I wish I had come to these forums earlier. To find out about all these strange and not so wonderful people everyone keeps talking about. I only know David because the guy doesn't know when the quit.



#416
teh DRUMPf!!

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Sometimes I wish I had come to these forums earlier. To find out about all these strange and not so wonderful people everyone keeps talking about. I only know David because the guy doesn't know when the quit.

 

...  in this case, you're better off not knowing.  :whistle:



#417
masster blaster

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...  in this case, you're better off not knowing.  :whistle:

It's best not to find out about everyone from the past BSN years. Half are okay, and there are some that are.....not okay. Rif either likes you or he does not. Personally he and I are on okay terms, but that is all.



#418
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For you, just like for any other IT'er:

 

Why does the catalyst only offer you destroy in low-EMS if you destroyed the collector base? For not trying at all, he only gives you the 'win'?

Why does the catalyst only offer you control in low-EMS if you kept the collector base? Now you get a 'lose'?

Why does the catalyst make that offer depend on what you did with the Catalyst?

 

Anyway, I'm waiting.

Think of it this way. If there was " no destroy option, or anything in general, then it would alert Shepard, and the player that something is not right. There are to few war assets to help save Shepard if we take in the factor that depending on how many war assets you have, the more endings you unlock, and the final ending is the breath scene in Destroy. To my understand both assets and the number it projects is Shepard's willpower and war assets of course. The more assets, the more willpower Shepard and the player will have at the end. Shepard will not be so easily destroyed and converted into a Reaper agent, or a new Reaper if Shepard has large amounts of hope, and assets. I you have few assets, your Shepard is weak, and not " worth being used as a major figure for the Reapers plans. Your Shepard will just be another " pawn" like Saren and TIM, expandable if they choose to let your Shepard live.. In a way your Shepard thinks you have won, but in reality the Reapers destroyed Shepard if Shepard is not wiling to work with Synthesis or control, yet if only has the highest of high ems destroy, then the Reapers can't kill Shepard.

 

Not worth there time to use a weak Shepard, nor be bothered to let Shepard go, so with few assets to help save Shepard, then Shepard will die.

 

For control low EMS. You have taken note of controlling the Reapers " may be possible", yet if TIM was a pawn, the collectors, other Indoctrinated races, and Saren, and they thought they could work or rule the Reapers, they were wrong. Your Shepard is presented with the end that allows you to " take over" the Reapers,  yet in the process it is you who is giving up control of Shepard, and the Reapers now have Shepard. Thought Shepard is a weak minded, and has very few assets for the Reapers to use or take out, Shepard is not " idolized, nor presented with a good outcome of him, or her being a "Reaper leader". In the every end you lose. Destroy low ems you lose, but your Shepard still held onto that belief that Destroying the Reapers is key to end the cycles, and the war with synthetics and organics for as long as it can last.

 

I don't understand what you mean about the third question, but if it is about why does the catalyst give you the option to choose depending on what you did with the crucible?

 

Well think of it this way. The catalyst wanted to allow Shepard to choose his, or her own path if they want the "perfect" Shepard the Reapers really want. However if Shepard needs to be taken out, then it may hurt the Reapers plans, but it's better to have the only being in the galaxy that could rally the galaxy and become the one thing to stop the Reapers, dead than alive. If you have low ems Control or Destroy, only one option is given, that your Shepard has thought about ever since you took out, or save the collector base. In this case, the Reapers do not even need to bother with using Shepard, but they can not allow Shepard to just get up and live to fight another day. It either ends in low EMS Destroy for Shepard, or in Control,have Shepard become a Reaper trooper, yet not that important to use. Much like a leader of Reaper ground troops instead.

 

For mid ems Control Destroy, and Destroy, Shepard is some what important, yet not that much of a thing to be afraid of. for Destroy the Reapers will still kill Shepard, yet it is harder to do so because Shepard's mind is still fighting, yet can still have hope. Yet it is not enough for Shepard to "live:" For control your Shepard has proven that maybe Shepard can be used as a figure ahead, but like TIM and Saren level. Not as a Reaper but a Spec ops agent/CIA agent in a way.

 

For high ems Control, Synthesis, and Destroy Shepard has reached the height for what the Reapers value, and fear. Shepard at this point can make it out alive, and recover from the indoctrination attempt yet the Reapers know this, and that is why a new ending appears. Synthesis. If Shepard chooses synthesis, Shepard becomes one with a Reaper capital ship, my guess would be Harbingers, if you look at it from an IT point of view. This way Shepard has let the Reapers take over "EVERYTHING" Shepard is and holds dear. Tis why it could very well be when you see the galaxy being synthesized, it is Shepard's body being converted and taken over, and viewing the Reapers ideas as "good, and awe like beings" For control, your Shepard can become a Destroyer Reaper for all his/her hard work in bringing the galaxy's only hope of a major retaliation, and a vast galactic leaders from every race, which can be used to Indoctrinate and be used as agents if they sub come to Reaper control. You surrender Shepard to the Reapers and that is all.

 

For destroy, Shepard has risen above any organic, and synthetic being in the galaxy in this cycle, or maybe from all or some past cycles ago. Shepard has been told many times not to trust the Reapers, and to destroy them. Yet with synthesis and control in his/her mind, the player/ Shepard's consensuses in a way, must help Shepard decide if this is the right path to save not just the galaxy, but Shepard to. By picking Destroy Shepard gives the Reapers hell, yet though the galaxy may live on without Shepard, Shepard didn't have enough assets to save him/her and died.

 

Now for the best ending to unlock if you want to rank them by unlocks by assets, it is the breath scene regardless if the EC lowered it. You had enough assets to save Shepard, and keep his/her mind intact.

 

Now what we can gather from this is the Reapers can not force Shepard to agree or see their way of thinking. They must persuade Shepard/the player to see how horrible destroy will be and how control and synthesis can save everyone, just they "ONLY" need Shepard to just do this one thing and all of this shall end. The player/Shepard has the choice to decide the galaxy,and Shepard's fate. For the crucible it is more like a test, rather than can it kill the Reapers, control them, or synthesis the galaxy. This is all about Shepard at this point. The sole reason why harbinger, and the Reapers were so hell bent on destroying Earth, hunting down the humans, and turning them into Reaper genetic material,and going after Shepard ever since the events after ME1. SO though upgrading it may help strength Shepard's will and war assets, if you think IT, then we have not seen the crucible really be used, and in this case, it could be a Reaper design to fool the organic races and synthetic races into believing the crucible would destroy or gain control of the Reapers. don't know, but it is just up for debate.



#419
Farangbaa

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You misunderstood. In Low EMS with collector base destroyed your only option is to destroy. You get no other options.

 

Try reconciling that with you fantasy that the decision room is a trap and you can only win by choosing destroy. In the best possible situation for the Reapers, with the galaxy at it's weakest, it (the Catalyst) only offers to kill itself and it's pawns... unless you kept the Collector base.

 

That makes absolutely no sense, no matter how big the wall of text you plaster on here.

 

But anyway, lets explain this situation using your logic.

 

With Shepard strong willed (high war assets, according to you) the Catalyst gives Shepard a lot of option, so it can trap him into not choosing destroy. With not such a strong will (cause, low assets) and the Collector base destroyed, the Catalyst just says: "well #@!&^@# all this, here, destroy me".

 

We have an expression for this on the internet: LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL


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#420
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You misunderstood. In Low EMS with collector base destroyed your only option is to destroy. You get no other options.

 

Try reconciling that with you fantasy that the decision room is a trap and you can only win by choosing destroy. In the best possible situation for the Reapers, with the galaxy at it's weakest, it (the Catalyst) only offers to kill itself and it's pawns... unless you kept the Collector base.

 

That makes absolutely no sense, no matter how big the wall of text you plaster on here.

I did give you my answer. I said the Reapers present you the low EMS destroy because though if it is an Indoctrination attempt, there has to be a choice. The Reapers can not force Shepard to submit and pick an end. IF they did then it may cause Shepard to break free, or damage Shepard's state of mind.. Shepard has have to have proven his/her worth the the Reapers. The more assets Shepard gets, the more willpower in a sense Shepard gains. For the assets, this posses a threat to the Reapers. However it also proves Shepard's value immensely.

 

Moreover they have to make it look real. They can't just have a no destroy option if you destroyed the collector base. sure they could have picked control for Shepard, but destroying the base reminds Shepard of destroying the Reapers, and why Shepard destroyed the collector base instead of re purposing it. Not to mention the goal from the allied galactic races is to stop and destroy the Reapers no matter the cost. You don't think the catalyst is not going to gamble his Reapers because of one half organic and half synthetic has proven just how troublesome Shepard has been to them, and thrashed their plans? That being said the  Arrival was meant for Shepard, to come alone and be slowly subjigated to Reaper control, yet Harbinger was having a hard time doing so., It makes more sense on why Shepard is on Earth being trailed, and why the Reapers are interested in Shepard, that hitting Earth, and targeting Shepard's old squadmates is a way to get back at Shepard..destroying the Normandy SR1 was to eliminate Shepard, yet acquire his/her body. Harbinger could have killed Shepard with it's laser blast but didn't during the beam run to the conduit with the Normandy coming down right in front of Harbinger and just letting the Normandy take off and have Shepard say goodbye in the MIDDLE of a war zone hot spot with a giant Reaper blasting everything in it's path.. I call that more of hard to believe than having the Reapers present Shepard with the option to destroy the Reapers. Not to mention this is Shepard's mind, and Destroy imo is what Shepard thinks is best if you destroyed the collector base. In a way it is Shepard's way out, yet if you have weak assets your Shepard dies, and the galaxy is doomed.

 

It is up to the player make sure you get all the assets you can. If you do not, you will fail. It is still consider a "win" but at a larger cost, yet if it is IT, then it can be said that the galaxy was harvested and Shepard is dead. Much like if you do not gain the loyalty of your squadmates in ME2, Shepard can die and though Bioware did not expand anything on that, Shepard died and it was game over. No imports, you had to restart over to the last save check point that requires you to at least have a good majority of squadmates survive , and  thus your Shepard lives. So it can be said that there are many outcomes of " win" scenarios, but there is only one that is true end in IT. Sadly this invalidates Control and synthesis, but it is not in vain. It just means you choose the wrong side. You choose the sides you are on through ME if given chance, and do paragon or renegade actions so picking a "win/lose" ending is not that big of a deal.



#421
Farangbaa

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I did give you my answer. I said the Reapers present you the low EMS destroy because though if it is an Indoctrination attempt, there has to be a choice. The Reapers can not force Shepard to submit and pick an end. IF they did then it may cause Shepard to break free, or damage Shepard's state of mind.. Shepard has have to have proven his/her worth the the Reapers. The more assets Shepard gets, the more willpower in a sense Shepard gains. For the assets, this posses a threat to the Reapers. However it also proves Shepard's value immensely.

 

It is up to the player make sure you get all the assets you can. If you do not, you will fail. It is still consider a "win" but at a larger cost, yet if it is IT, then it can be said that the galaxy was harvested and Shepard is dead. Much like if you do not gain the loyalty of your squadmates in ME2, Shepard can die and though Bioware did not expand anything on that, Shepard died and it was game over. No imports, you had to restart over to the last save check point that requires you to at least have a good majority of squadmates survive , and  thus your Shepard lives. So it can be said that there are many outcomes of " win" scenarios, but there is only one that is true end in IT. Sadly this invalidates Control and synthesis, but it is not in vain. It just means you choose the wrong side. You choose the sides you are on through ME if given chance, and do paragon or renegade actions so picking a "win/lose" ending is not that big of a deal.

 

Dude.. seriously?

 

You have no choice in low-EMS with collector base destroyed. You only get to choose destroy.



#422
AlanC9

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Ah, yes.... the wonders of IT, where Shepard can save the galaxy via failure to gather war assets.

 

Or is low-EMS Destroy supposed to be an indoctrinated hallucination induced for no rational purpose? I have trouble keeping this stuff straight.



#423
AlanC9

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So, wait, you don't respect anyone who doesn't toe Bioware's line concerning the endings?

 

That's...sad :(

 

Wait, what? I only lack respect for IT believers who claim that IT is logical or true. If someone says "I believe IT because I find it more fun," I'm fine with that. Arguing about religion is pointless.


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#424
ImaginaryMatter

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I did give you my answer. I said the Reapers present you the low EMS destroy because though if it is an Indoctrination attempt, there has to be a choice. The Reapers can not force Shepard to submit and pick an end. IF they did then it may cause Shepard to break free, or damage Shepard's state of mind.. Shepard has have to have proven his/her worth the the Reapers. The more assets Shepard gets, the more willpower in a sense Shepard gains. For the assets, this posses a threat to the Reapers. However it also proves Shepard's value immensely.

 

Moreover they have to make it look real. They can't just have a no destroy option if you destroyed the collector base. sure they could have picked control for Shepard, but destroying the base reminds Shepard of destroying the Reapers, and why Shepard destroyed the collector base instead of re purposing it. Not to mention the goal from the allied galactic races is to stop and destroy the Reapers no matter the cost. You don't think the catalyst is not going to gamble his Reapers because of one half organic and half synthetic has proven just how troublesome Shepard has been to them, and thrashed their plans? That being said the  Arrival was meant for Shepard, to come alone and be slowly subjigated to Reaper control, yet Harbinger was having a hard time doing so., It makes more sense on why Shepard is on Earth being trailed, and why the Reapers are interested in Shepard, that hitting Earth, and targeting Shepard's old squadmates is a way to get back at Shepard..destroying the Normandy SR1 was to eliminate Shepard, yet acquire his/her body. Harbinger could have killed Shepard with it's laser blast but didn't during the beam run to the conduit with the Normandy coming down right in front of Harbinger and just letting the Normandy take off and have Shepard say goodbye in the MIDDLE of a war zone hot spot with a giant Reaper blasting everything in it's path.. I call that more of hard to believe than having the Reapers present Shepard with the option to destroy the Reapers. Not to mention this is Shepard's mind, and Destroy imo is what Shepard thinks is best if you destroyed the collector base. In a way it is Shepard's way out, yet if you have weak assets your Shepard dies, and the galaxy is doomed.

 

It is up to the player make sure you get all the assets you can. If you do not, you will fail. It is still consider a "win" but at a larger cost, yet if it is IT, then it can be said that the galaxy was harvested and Shepard is dead. Much like if you do not gain the loyalty of your squadmates in ME2, Shepard can die and though Bioware did not expand anything on that, Shepard died and it was game over. No imports, you had to restart over to the last save check point that requires you to at least have a good majority of squadmates survive , and  thus your Shepard lives. So it can be said that there are many outcomes of " win" scenarios, but there is only one that is true end in IT. Sadly this invalidates Control and synthesis, but it is not in vain. It just means you choose the wrong side. You choose the sides you are on through ME if given chance, and do paragon or renegade actions so picking a "win/lose" ending is not that big of a deal.

 

This part never made sense to me. Why does the dream state have to offer a choice? How would not having a choice break the illusion? What if Shepard chooses Control for the exact purpose of destroying the Reapers without sacrificing the Geth or the Citadel? Why is there a dream state? Is there a reason for this besides it is needed to maintain IT?

 

Why is there any choice at all? Indoctrination has never been about clouding people in delusions or tricking them into working for the Reapers. It is about subverting choice all together. No one can choose their way out of Indoctrination, it's electromagnetic waves screwing around with the limbic system -- it's not a battle of wills.


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#425
teh DRUMPf!!

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Indoctrination Theory makes the most sense.

 

Until you actually start thinking about it, and then you find even more holes with the ending than accepting reality.

 

Holes such as: Low-EMS ending states, inclusion of Refusal (especially via shooting the Catalyst), and oh yes, the fact that IT requires hand-waving entire parts of the ending that prove it wrong (Control and Sync being positive overall endings) for it to fit in.

 

 

What I see here is blind acceptance of what people like/want to believe, and scrutiny only for the things they don't.