937 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

Nope.

 

"We have tried a similar solution in the past, but it has always failed.  Because the organics were not ready.  It is not something that can be... forced.  YOU are ready, and you may choose it."

 

By the way, are you aware of the meanings of the word "Crucible"?

 

While I understand the Crucible was symbolically meant to be a test, that doesn't mean it is necessarily a literal test in the internal logic of the story. Everything that happens in are events the Reapers thought could never happen, it is a first and solely unique experience, without any precedence. It's hard to imagine the Reapers having any kind of standard to test Shepard and the Organics that isn't completely arbitrary.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

If I must destroy you, Shepard, I will. Surrender and you will be spared. You are called. You must answer. You insult a future you cannot comprehend. One must not destroy the nation. You are the one wasting lives. The void awaits your ascension. Organic life will not survive.

[masster blaster]

Of course, the whole point of the theory is that the developers are lying. It's evidence-proof.

 

Not that getting involved with this nonsense can't be fun, but rational argument won't get you anywhere.

We don't know if they are lying or not. We don't work for Bioware, and neither do you. It's all up to Bioware at this point.  Then why do you continually keep getting involved with this nonsense then? They do, it just depends on who answers them, and who is posting the rational argument

[masster blaster]

See what I mean?

it's called sarcasm that the others are employing yes.

[masster blaster]

"

Okay, but if they kill Shepard the war is over. It's not going to continue. The Crucible will never dock, the Victory Fleet will loose as predicted, and the ground forces on Earth will be slaughtered (which is pretty morale breaking for everyone else). Also, even assuming all of this is a dream and the Indoctrination fails, what then? Shepard is lying unconscious on the ground, as soon as they realize the Indoctrination failed the Reapers are going to do what they did 99.9% of the rest of the time -- he's going to get blasted to death and then everyone dies.

 

Shepard is unneeded. The failed assault was the organics last throw, if it fails they are done for. Their morale will break from having their one and only plan fail along with the death of the bulk of their remaining military forces. They also don't need Shepard in a thinking capacity. He only has to perform menial tasks -- hell they could probably even rig him with animatronics and puppet him, no one would know and it would accomplish the same thing; namely that Shepard would appear to be working for the Reapers now after they already won.

 

Also -- and this is probably the most important part -- the Indoctrination that supposedly happens in IT isn't anything at all like the Indoctrination in the story, it's something completely new. Indoctrination isn't trying to break someone's will, it's electromagnetic waves that physically damage a part of the brain -- you can't resist Indoctrination. It's even been one of the major themes of all the Indoctrinated characters' arcs that all the antagonist are strong willed people who succumbed to Indoctrination, showing how truly awful a method it was for subverting organics."

 

 

While that is true, what I believe happens is that in the ultimate Destroy ending, you have enough assets to distract the Reapers from blowing up Shepard. It makes sense how the only way to stop Harbinger from finishing off Shepard would be either the Normandy, Some sword fleet, or Anderson with Hammer team/Shepard's squadmates, past and present take on Harbinger in order to allow an extraction team find Shepard and take him/her back to their new base.

 

That is true. However Shepard in the records in the time capsules would inspire the other organics, and synthetics in the next cycle. It is most likely how the Reapers used the collectors( Protheans) from the last cycle, Shepard would be used as a guide to the next cycles destruction. They could have Shepard be put into a pod and when the time comes either the Reapers open the pod, or an organic or synthetic science team finds Shepard's pod. After all we did find Javik's pod, so it is possible the Reapers would have more use in the next cycle. Not to mention we still don't know if anyone could have made it from the battle at Earth. Hacket, some of our squadmates, and some parts of hammer and sword could have escaped to continue to make some small hint and runs, causing the cycle to go on for another 50 years at best or maybe more. Javik's people fought the Reapers for century. It could take that long.

 

Not true. Zhu's hope knows they are being Indoctrinated yet their time with the Thorian caused them to link minds to one another and not feel the affect's of Indoctrination. My guess is Shepard will mind link to Leviathan at best if you have the dlc, the Rachni queen if you saved her in ME1, or possible Liara.

 

Now though it could be a new form of Indoctrination, IT still holds up because even though it could be a new form of Indoctrination, Shepard experiences a good portion of the symptom's of Indoctrination taking place. Not to mention we know that Leviathans have a earlier version of Indoctrination, and the reapers perfected it more, it is possible that the Reapers can not Indoctrinate Shepard their old way, so they must have Shepard willingly give him/herself over to the Reapers. ( Control and Synthesis). Yet Destroy is not handing the Reapers what they want. It is instead, Shepard is sticking with the mission at hand, and regaining part's of him/herself that the Reapers tried very hard to suppress. That is just my take on it though, I don't want anyone to think that what i could say speaks for all supporters of IT, and theorist.

[ImaginaryMatter]

While that is true, what I believe happens is that in the ultimate Destroy ending, you have enough assets to distract the Reapers from blowing up Shepard. It makes sense how the only way to stop Harbinger from finishing off Shepard would be either the Normandy, Some sword fleet, or Anderson with Hammer team/Shepard's squadmates, past and present take on Harbinger in order to allow an extraction team find Shepard and take him/her back to their new base.

 

That is true. However Shepard in the records in the time capsules would inspire the other organics, and synthetics in the next cycle. It is most likely how the Reapers used the collectors( Protheans) from the last cycle, Shepard would be used as a guide to the next cycles destruction. They could have Shepard be put into a pod and when the time comes either the Reapers open the pod, or an organic or synthetic science team finds Shepard's pod. After all we did find Javik's pod, so it is possible the Reapers would have more use in the next cycle. Not to mention we still don't know if anyone could have made it from the battle at Earth. Hacket, some of our squadmates, and some parts of hammer and sword could have escaped to continue to make some small hint and runs, causing the cycle to go on for another 50 years at best or maybe more. Javik's people fought the Reapers for century. It could take that long.

 

Not true. Zhu's hope knows they are being Indoctrinated yet their time with the Thorian caused them to link minds to one another and not feel the affect's of Indoctrination. My guess is Shepard will mind link to Leviathan at best if you have the dlc, the Rachni queen if you saved her in ME1, or possible Liara.

 

Now though it could be a new form of Indoctrination, IT still holds up because even though it could be a new form of Indoctrination, Shepard experiences a good portion of the symptom's of Indoctrination taking place. Not to mention we know that Leviathans have a earlier version of Indoctrination, and the reapers perfected it more, it is possible that the Reapers can not Indoctrinate Shepard their old way, so they must have Shepard willingly give him/herself over to the Reapers. ( Control and Synthesis). Yet Destroy is not handing the Reapers what they want. It is instead, Shepard is sticking with the mission at hand, and regaining part's of him/herself that the Reapers tried very hard to suppress. That is just my take on it though, I don't want anyone to think that what i could say speaks for all supporters of IT, and theorist.

 

If they had enough assets why didn't they utilize them before recklessly charging the beam? Everything relies on this attack. Sure they can retreat, retreating after all is a big part of space combat in the MEU, but to where? All the systems are currently under attack, no where is safe, presumably the support lines aren't going to hold up much longer (assuming they are still there), and its hard to fight when there is nothing left to fight for. I don't think the organics have access to stasis pods and even if they did quickly develop the technology that plan is not likely to fare better than the Prothean's attempts at doing so.

 

I guess I should have clarified. There is no way to willfully resist becoming Indoctrinated. The only instance I believe it's been seen was enabled by the Thorian spores.

 

The Leviathan's method of control is completely different than Indoctrination. The Leviathans use straight up mind control, Indoctrination is more akin to psychological manipulation. We see that easily and often enough in the DLC. I know the Leviathan says each Reaper is created in their image and that they have the ability to influence Organics but that doesn't equal what the Leviathan's have, generally creating something in the image of denotes a rather superficial imitation.

[KaiserShep]

Hey, I'm a sarcasm fan. But it's no substitute for an actual argument.
I just wanted to point out to ImaginaryMatter that rational argument can't work because you guys can always make up something to explain away any inconvenient facts. Since your religion relies on the devs lying to us, any fact whatsoever can be explained away as another lie.
I'm sure he was already aware of that, of course.

I've had just about enough of your heretical ranting against indoctrinism.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Hey, I'm a sarcasm fan. But it's no substitute for an actual argument.

I just wanted to point out to ImaginaryMatter that rational argument can't work because you guys can always make up something to explain away any inconvenient facts. Since your religion relies on the devs lying to us, any fact whatsoever can be explained away as another lie.

I'm sure he was already aware of that, of course.

 

I find this much more fulfilling than paying attention in class.

[DeathScepter]

Hey, I'm a sarcasm fan. But it's no substitute for an actual argument.

I just wanted to point out to ImaginaryMatter that rational argument can't work because you guys can always make up something to explain away any inconvenient facts. Since your religion relies on the devs lying to us, any fact whatsoever can be explained away as another lie.

I'm sure he was already aware of that, of course.

 

well IT is not a religion, just a theory, sweet cheeks.   

[masster blaster]

I find this much more fulfilling than paying attention in class.

Besides I am being reasonable when we are talking about IT and literal end run. So it is not like I am bsing my way out, just we have so many views and theories to just give us many different options, yet we normally stick with the normal ones everyone has heard, or use to.

 

I did too find it more fulfilling for the last two years XD Though it has actually helped me out in debating, researching, and speeches.  So I can learn something XD

[Perpetual Nirvana]

One spoof wikipedia example does not a convincing argument make.  You've essentially resorted to "BaD WrItINgZ", just as I predicted.

 

And it was three Husks and one Marauder.  Token resistance, nothing more than that.  Literally minutes earlier, Shepard successfully held off multiple Marauders, Banshees, Ravagers and Brutes while protecting the missile batteries.  The Reapers are aware of Shepard's abilities.  If Shepard succumbs to three Husks and a solitary Marauder - even in his/her weakened state - then he/she clearly isn't worthy of further attention.  Please tell me you didn't succumb to three Husks and one Marauder.

 

For an extended analysis, however, here are the pertinent facts:

 

• Harbinger arrives in London to defend the entry point for the Citadel.

• Harbinger picks off every single member of Hammer team with pinpoint accuracy., eliminating Makos, foot troops, aerial vehicles with effortless, contemptuous ease.

• The Normandy arrives - and Harbinger STOPS.  Dead it's tracks.  Harbinger watches Shepard and the Normandy, and waits.

• The Normandy evacs, and Harbinger IMMEDIATELY turns it's attention to Shepard - attacking him/her with JUST enough power to weaken, disorientate and stun.

•  Harbinger LEAVES, giving Shepard (assuming he/she is competent enough to still take down token resistance from the Reaper's weakest forces) clear and free access to the Citadel.

 

Following Harbinger's attack, Shepard is entirely at their mercy.  If they wanted Shepard dead, Shepard would be DEAD.  But no - Harbinger wipes out Shepard's escort, then ushers him onwards.  Harbinger ALLOWS Shepard to pass.  Shepard ONLY makes it onto the Citadel because the Reapers WANT him/her to make it onto the Citadel.

 

The Reapers WANT Shepard to make it onto the Citadel.

 

The Reapers WANT Shepard.

 

QED.

 

Okay. Now explain why the Reapers don't attack the Normandy at the beginning of the game when it sits there for seemingly an eternity while Shepard watches transports getting destroyed in the name of pathos.

 

Same reason Shepard let's TIM waffle and doesn't just shoot Kai Leng on Thessia. It's a plot device. No more, no less. One that was only added, I might remind you, to fix the "teleporting squadmates" plot hole. An oversight which itself was used as evidence of IT. You'd think that if IT was true then Bioware wouldn't have added that fix but not in the minds of the ITers!

[AlanC9]

well IT is not a religion, just a theory, sweet cheeks.

Apparently it is; I've just picked up a warning point over that post.

[masster blaster]

Okay. Now explain why the Reapers don't attack the Normandy at the beginning of the game when it sits there for seemingly an eternity while Shepard watches transports getting destroyed in the name of pathos.

 

Same reason Shepard let's TIM waffle and doesn't just shoot Kai Leng on Thessia. It's a plot device. No more, no less. One that was only added, I might remind you, to fix the "teleporting squadmates" plot hole. An oversight which itself was used as evidence of IT. You'd think that if IT was true then Bioware wouldn't have added that fix but not in the minds of the ITers!

 

 

He doesn't speak for all ITers and neither do you speak everyone else.

 

Tis true why don't they shoot down the Normandy, maybe it is because the Destroyer Reaper was targeting the organics firing at it? That is a great reason to not target the Normandy. Though it has strong kinetic shields it does not mean it will go down.

 

Shepard tries to shoot Kai Leng after wards but Shepard needs info on TIM's goal aside from what he told us on Mars. While that is true we did, it was at the beginning of speculations. We just used what was in the game and tried to make sense out of it. We now know the bugs and gotten rid of them that Bioware confirmed not intentional to the game.

 

Though some still speak highly of them at intentional it is not everyone who supports, or is a theorist.

 

Apparently it is; I've just picked up a warning point over that post.

what are you talking about?

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

 

Tis true why don't they shoot down the Normandy, maybe it is because the Destroyer Reaper was targeting the organics firing at it? That is a great reason to not target the Normandy. Though it has strong kinetic shields it does not mean it will go down.

 

Shepard tries to shoot Kai Leng after wards but Shepard needs info on TIM's goal aside from what he told us on Mars. While that is true we did, it was at the beginning of speculations. We just used what was in the game and tried to make sense out of it. We now know the bugs and gotten rid of them that Bioware confirmed not intentional to the game.

They don't shoot down the Normandy because it has a Reaper IFF. The Reapers see it as another Reaper. 

Shepard doesn't need to know Timmy's goal. What she needs is the location of the "catalyst." You know, the final piece of the crucible? That will supposedly destroy the Reapers? You know, that thing?

[masster blaster]

They don't shoot down the Normandy because it has a Reaper IFF. The Reapers see it as another Reaper. 

Shepard doesn't need to know Timmy's goal. What she needs is the location of the "catalsyt." You know, the final piece of the crucible? That will supposedly destroy the Reapers? You know, that thing?

Yes, but I don't believe when a Reaper meets the Normandy face to face it would be fooled. It is why I couldn't take Harbinger just staring at the Normandy while Shepard said good bye to the two squadmates you take. It basically fools their scanners, but like how you scan to much on the galaxy Map that IFF means nothing.

 

Shepard may have to. Kai Leng got there first and TIM has more information about the crucible than Shepard does. Plus the location of the catalyst is why she/he is on Thessia in the "first" place. TIM already knew about Thessia, which was weird yet told Kai Leng to wait for Shepard, which i found weird.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Yes, but I don't believe when a Reaper meets the Normandy face to face it would be fooled. It is why I couldn't take Harbinger just staring at the Normandy while Shepard said good bye to the two squadmates you take. It basically fools their scanners, but like how you scan to much on the galaxy Map that IFF means nothing.

 

Shepard may have to. Kai Leng got their first and TIM has more information about the crucible than Shepard does. Plus the location of the catalyst is why she/he is on Thessia in the "first" place. TIM already knew about Thessia, which was weird yet told Kai Leng to wait for Shepard, which i found weird.

Reapers don't have eyes. I'm guessing they see through infrared scanning for heat and some form of LADAR. 
That's probably more of a game mechanic, though. It's a plot inconsistency at the very least. 

The Crucible was finished at the time of Thessia I believe. All it needed was the missing piece. 

[masster blaster]

Reapers don't have eyes. I'm guessing they see through infrared scanning for heat and some form of LADAR. 
That's probably more of a game mechanic, though. It's a plot inconsistency at the very least. 

The Crucible was finished at the time of Thessia I believe. All it needed was the missing piece. 

It could be, however I see it as Harbinger knowing something is up because if you get one of your own kin coming down near you without any orders from the catalyst......Harbinger would most likely know that is not a Reaper, especially if it is right next to Shepard. Well they have glowing eyes it seems, yet they could be heat seeking, but that didn't stop the collector drones from attacking the Normandy, so I don't believe it would hide the Normandy.

 

Yes I believe it was, but the missing piece is why Shepard went to Thessia to find this information, yet Cerberus got there first, yet didn't touch anything until Shepard did.  I just find in strange that is all.

[Perpetual Nirvana]

He doesn't speak for all ITers and neither do you speak everyone else.

 

Tis true why don't they shoot down the Normandy, maybe it is because the Destroyer Reaper was targeting the organics firing at it? That is a great reason to not target the Normandy. Though it has strong kinetic shields it does not mean it will go down.

 

I never meant to give the impression I do speak for anyone else. Sorry if it came off that way.

 

My point is 99% of the evidence for IT can be explained away and rest doesn't amount to anything.

 

I just want to be clear on this. If you consder IT just to be nothing more than your own personal head canon then that's fair enough. However if consider IT to be the one truth that Bioware planned all along then sorry but no. The latter are the ones who are troublesome and potentiality dangerous. I don't mean litarally dangerous of course, I mean dangerous as it relates to the modern gaming market.

 

Remember the 2008 reboot of Prince of Persia? Remember how Ubisoft brought out a DLC Epilogue that was essentially the true ending that they charged people for? What the "True ITers" are saying is that sort of practice is okay. In the modern gaming world where frivilous DLC is a hot button issue with gamers (*cough*Capcom*cough*) they are perfectly willing to accept a unfinished product and pay for the proper ending later. That attitude definitely needs to be quashed.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

It could be, however I see it as Harbinger knowing something is up because if you get one of your own kin coming down near you without any orders from the catalyst......Harbinger would most likely know that is not a Reaper, especially if it is right next to Shepard. Well they have glowing eyes it seems, yet they could be heat seeking, but that didn't stop the collector drones from attacking the Normandy, so I don't believe it would hide the Normandy.

 

Yes I believe it was, but the missing piece is why Shepard went to Thessia to find this information, yet Cerberus got there first, yet didn't touch anything until Shepard did.  I just find in strange that is all.

Well, what's he gonna do, shot at another Reaper? The Normandy can't have stealth systems active while in combat; the ship would melt. 

Of course it's strange. Then again, Shepard's cipher was probably needed to access Vendetta. 

[masster blaster]

I never meant to give the impression I do speak for anyone else. Sorry if it came off that way.

 

My point is 99% of the evidence for IT can be explained away and rest doesn't amount to anything.

 

I just want to be clear on this. If you consder IT just to be nothing more than your own personal head canon then that's fair enough. However if consider IT to be the one truth that Bioware planned all along then sorry but no. The latter are the ones who are troublesome and potentiality dangerous. I don't mean litarally dangerous of course, I mean dangerous as it relates to the modern gaming market.

 

Remember the 2008 reboot of Prince of Persia? Remember how Ubisoft brought out a DLC Epilogue that was essentially the true ending that they charged people for? What the "True ITers" are saying is that sort of practice is okay. In the modern gaming world where frivilous DLC is a hot button issue with gamers (*cough*Capcom*cough*) they are perfectly willing to accept a unfinished and pay for the proper ending later. That attitude definitely needs to be quashed.

It's fine. Some of the others that are for or against IT act that way at times.

 

I consider it true to myself, but not what Bioware is planning from the start now. At first I did, but I personally think IT was used to boost sells since it kept the players wanting to buy their products to see if there is anything we could dish out. However it is still possible they meant for IT to be taken true, yet the same thing for literal endings as well. In a way they keep both players satisfied, yet in the long run irritating  the fans on both sides.

[masster blaster]

Well, what's he gonna do, shot at another Reaper? The Normandy can't have stealth systems active while in combat; the ship would melt. 

Of course it's strange. Then again, Shepard's cipher was probably needed to access Vendetta. 

But how can he not see it is not a Reaper if the stealth systems are not on? And I am sure Harbinger would. Just my personal tid bit because Harbinger always came off as a Reaper who would kill it's own kin to stay alive.

 

That is true.

[Dysjong]

While IT is a great thing, i just dont believe in it at all. I prefere the ending as they are now and that is it. No matter i say, what link i post or suggest, some IT believers will just go rampage, it is almost like telling a religions person that things in some holy book or text is wrong and they would hang me for talking heresy.
http://social.biowar.../index/13006636
I think this post does a pretty good job about explaning how the logical behind the Intelligence works and it is something i can relate to other fantasy settings aswell.
If people prefere IT, fine. just dont try and force it upon me. If people prefere the MEHEM, then go ahead and be happy about it, just dont push it towards me.

In the end, it is the journey towards the destination that matters most for me and i enjoyed the journey.

[dorktainian]

Why is IT popular?

 

because it makes sense.  But hey, you don't have to believe in IT just to know that something is 'off' about everything that happens after shep gets 'near missed' by harbie during the beam run.  So many things are off.  So many things are just wrong.

 

FWIW I like IT because it offers a 'way out' and an explanation regarding just what the heck is going on.

 

There are other avenues we could follow.  Other paths to enlightenment.  IT isn't the only theory out there.

 

But since this thread is about IT, if you don't like it, hey.... don't post here.  

 

 

Anyway...

 

apparently shepard doesn't exist in the next Mass effect game, and he has never existed....  

 

http://issuu.com/werguite/docs/43____

 

page 65.  Go Figure.  

[ElSuperGecko]

Remember the 2008 reboot of Prince of Persia? Remember how Ubisoft brought out a DLC Epilogue that was essentially the true ending that they charged people for? What the "True ITers" are saying is that sort of practice is okay. In the modern gaming world where frivilous DLC is a hot button issue with gamers (*cough*Capcom*cough*) they are perfectly willing to accept a unfinished product and pay for the proper ending later. That attitude definitely needs to be quashed.

 

Actually, I do.  I really enjoyed that game.  I agree that the Epilogue was pretty poor, though - especially as it looks like we're never going to see it expanded upon.

 

But if you think the concept of paid DLC and episodic content is going away any time soon, you're living in a dream world frankly.  It's 2014.  You no longer need to buy a game on DVD - you can download it directly to your gaming machine of choice.  Games like The Walking Dead and Wolf Among Us as selling episodic content in huge numbers, and paving the way for future releases to do the same.  Paid Micro-DLC is becoming an industry norm.  If you think this is some kind of war, then I'm afraid you've already lost.

 

Not that this line of discussion really has anything to do with people who follow the Indoctrination Theory in any case.  We're just waiting to see what the next Mass Effect game has in store for us now.

 

Besides, we've already had our Indoctrination Theory DLC.  It was called Leviathan.

[masster blaster]

Ya it is true Leviathan was pretty much what we asked for really. Lot's of speculations happened when it came out.  The highlights were

 

1. Leviathan getting into Shepard's head and yet Shepard was still sitting in the Atlas yet not moving, only in the dream like state Shepard was forced into. Just like how the Breath scene happens after the slideshow/memorial scene roles in, it could be possible that Shepard was forced back into a pile of rubble back on Earth thanks to Harbinger's beam.

 

2. Leviathan takes the form of Ann Bryson which they used the memories of Shepard. Much like how the catalyst takes the form of the child back on Earth, that has haunted Shepard constantly throughout the game.

 

3. Leviathan uses Bryson's lab table in Shepard's mind, thus this can support the similar objects we see at the end of ME3.

 

4. Leviathan states the the Reapers improved their mind control to new levels that we call " Indoctrination". Now if they perfected the Leviathans mind control attempt, imagine how the Reapers would use it against Shepard at the end. Very likely that they can create a virtual world that can fool Shepard so long as they play against Shepard's emotions, and keep things down to a minimal.

 

There are some smaller details and jokes that we see that Bioware may or could have intended, but those are the top 4 things that many can see how Leviathan was basically a field day for ITers, and those that wanted to speculate the endings.