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[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I still believe in... the anti-Indoc. Theory: http://forum.bioware...ift-theory-pst/.

[masster blaster]

I was always skeptical of the theory, though analysing it brings so much sense into me, it just... it makes way too much freaking sense not to be true! Although I found it harder to believe after the release of the Extended Cut, I believe they never dismissed the IT as false? Honestly, I think this may be a bit of a mystery that we will either never get to know the answer to, or will not get to know for many more years to come, though I'm hopeful that it is real.

Ya that's the thing. the EC didn't out right confirm nor deni IT. Leviathan also helped IT in a great margin. Leviathan shows that a creature like Leviathan can breach into Shepard's mind and create a virtual reality inside Shepard's mind. Ann Brycan is shown inside Shepard's head and Shepard is puzzled by this. Leviathan also creates her fathers lab table inside Shepard's head. Leviathan also claims that the Reapers perfected the Leviathans abilities which is known to us as Indoctrination.

 

Now if you take the endings as en example it explains why the leader of the Reapers takes the form of the child that has plagued our Shepard's since the beginning of the game. How there is a lot of reused assets that just like in Leviathan DLC when the Leviathan is inside Shepard's head recreates an object that you saw in Brycan's lab. This indicates that the things you see at the end could possibly be all inside Shepard's head. If Bioware wanted to have fixed this then they could have. Since people claim that they had to rush, why not fix it all in the EC? They did not, which there for can be left to say intentional or unintentional.  Moreover we have no idea how indoctrination is like first hand. We have seen the the effects, read the logs of indoctrinated people, the codex about Indoctrination, and seen major characters fall pray too it's effects. If the Reapers have mastered and improved the leviathans powers by a 1000 fold, then it is more than likely that Harbinger is creating a virtual world as did the leviathans did inside Shepard's head.

[Glockwheeler]

I really never took IT very seriously, but after looking at this theory more in depth, I must say that I find it very intriguing. In all honesty, I find myself liking this more than the original ending(s). 

[masster blaster]

 

I don't get IT.

 

Indoctrination Theory relies on the idea that Shepard is being indoctrinated during the final conversation with the Catalyst, and that if the Catalyst successfully persuades Shepard to pick either Control or Synthesis, the indoctrination attempt has been successful. (Some extreme versions include Destroy, with Refuse being the only unindoctrinated option.)

 

But... No.

Indoctrination doesn't work like that.

 

 

Consider our three main in-game examples of indoctrination. Saren, Kenson, and TIM. Consider what indoctrination meant for each of them. For what it's worth, for none of them did indoctrination mean agreeing with the Reapers.

 

Saren reached the conclusion that submission was preferable to extinction - failing to consider that submission might mean extinction and that resistance might be the only chance at survival.

Kenson reached the conclusion that the Reapers couldn't be a bad thing for the galaxy, since life continues after each cycle - failing to consider that simple continuity of life was meaningless in the face of the destruction of civilisation.

TIM - ah, TIM. He's probably the best example. TIM reached the conclusion that Control was preferable to Destroy, but completely failed to consider that Destroy was still preferable to a Reaper victory.

 

What do we see in common?

A failure to consider very simple perspectives.

 

What don't we see?

Any sign of a hallucinatory final test of their resolve before they become fully under the control of the Reapers.

They were never fully under the control of the Reapers (with the exception of Saren after he was already dead).

 

 

By my understanding, indoctrination acts as a form of mental tunnel vision. Every single thought that you have is still your own, but thoughts that align with the Reapers' goals are encouraged, and other thoughts merely become less likely. Both Saren and TIM were broken by forcing them to consider perspectives that the Reapers had blinded them to - but the goals that they had were still very much in character for they were. (TIM wanted ultimate power; Saren was actually trying to save organics.) Their free will was still intact - it had just been subverted.

 

I can't reconcile this with what is presented by Indoctrination Theory. IT tells me that, for picking Control, my Shepard wakes up a puppet of the Reapers, all free will gone. So, because I decided that I'd prefer to put galactic power in the hands of one man rather than wipe out the Geth, suddenly I'm fully indoctrinated?! I don't see how that perspective leads to me working for the Reapers. I cannot see the connection.

 

 

Is there a bunch of weird stuff that could be counted as evidence that something fishy is going on? Yes. I tend to ignore it, but yes, it's there if you want to see it. But "Shepard is bleeding from the same place as where he shot Anderson" is not evidence for "Control and Synthesis are indoctrination!". Neither is "Anderson got ahead of Shepard on the Citadel". Nor is "We've seen this kid before." It is evidence for "Something fishy might be going on" - nothing more, nothing less.

 

Is something fishy going on? Maybe. I can't discount it. Is it what IT presents? I doubt it - because as far as I can tell, the indoctrination presented by IT is nothing like indoctrination as we've seen it before.

 

Actually Destroy is the only way to go. it has been the prime objective since ME1. Though yes you may see events play out in Destroy ending, however if you have enough points to unlock the breath scene in Destroy ending, which is the LAST possible ending to unlock, then Shepard wakes up. Refuse is just Shepard giving up the fight and nothing more.

 

You do realize that they all had the same ideas as the Reapers right? Saren was the first to forge an alliance between organics and machines.......when the hell did he think that way? Never. if you read him in the books and comics he was nothing like the Saren we see until he met Sovereign. He was played by the Reapers into believing that by working with them and he would be spared. It was never about saving everyone just his own hide. He had no choice which i believe is false. You either fight or you die.

 

Reaper indoctrination is making your enemies believe in your side of view. the Reapers did this too TIM, to Saren, to Kenson, and so many others. Shepard is the latest of this with control and synthesis being present. TIM wanted to control the Reapers as did the Indoctrinated Protheans. If you mean to tell me that indoctrinated agents that had the similar goals more than 50,000 years ago, that were indoctrinated by the Reapers did not had anything to do with having any similarities between their masters goals....really?

 

Each indoctrinated agents serves it's master, and whatever the master commands the person can either do the best to fight it, or give in. Thus at the end of the game Shepard has the pistol. fight, die, or serve. Destroy though yes you kill synthetics and Shepard SHOULD die since it makes no sense to have Shepard live if all the synthetics die unless you get high EMS maxed ending for Destroy right? Destroy is telling the Reapers despite all it's claims that organics and synthetics will never stop fighting each-other so what? Do you simply give up on everything that is impossible that comes in your way, or do you get up and do the best you can? It's simply forge your own future without the Reapers, start anew, and do the best you can to prevent it again. If it happens again then so be it. We humans fight each-other even when all hell is being unleashed, we make up later, yet we fight each-other again. does that mean we simply accept that it is an endless cycle? no. We keep on trying and trying despite how it will always repeat, why because that's what we do. Until the day people realize how pointless it is then that is when people will finally come to terms with everything, not by simply brainwashing them, and forcing them to live under a system that can take you out if you are simply a hazard to start a new cycle of violence.

 

Moreover IT has said again and i will say it again control and synthesis leave Shepard Indoctrinated yet that doesn't mean Shepard can't fight Indoctrination. right now Shepard is just their tool, unaware he or she is helping the Reapers. You do realize TIM never wanted power until he came in contact with the Reaper artifact right? He wanted to serve and protect humanity and he went down hill after that. Though still a sleeper agent all along he was slowly and slowly helped the Reapers. They turn his human patriotism into a weapon of destruction against humanity.  They twist your views , morals, and make them one with theirs. the player wants to save everyone they can because they feel they CAN save everyone. However in truth you can't save them all. To save trillions you have to make the hard choices, and sometimes they are not pretty. the Reapers use the geth as a way to turn you and Shepard towards salvation. A way to save everyone.

 

no not for synthesis and control Anderson being shot in the same place as Shepard BUT is part of the INDOCTRINATION attempt on Shepard. Anderson is basically Shepard's un-indoctrinated side. TIM is the indoctrination that has taken part of Shepard. it has been brewing since the events of Earth being attacked. the child was a way into Shepard's mind. hence the nightmares Shepard would have of the kid. And lord and behold the child is being used at the end by the leader of the Reapers. Anderson if is killed by TIM and you did not talk to TIM in paragon or renegade choices during your conversation with him adds a 1000 more ems requirements towards the destroy ending. why is that? because Anderson is Shepard's un indoctrinated part of his/her mind. Yet if you talked to TIM paragon or renegade choices, then Anderson dies, but Destroy ending is not affected.

[masster blaster]

I really never took IT very seriously, but after looking at this theory more in depth, I must say that I find it very intriguing. In all honesty, I find myself liking this more than the original ending(s). 

Ya that's what a lot of people say. You have to think, researcher and just see it from a different point. You can't just take what is in front of you for real all the time. in this day and age people just want all the answers, and technology helps provide that for them. We don't think as much as we use too. That is why i like IT. i literally had to plunge into the game and read all that i can about IT.

[masster blaster]

 

The problem that I have with IT is that the act of experiencing it only vaguely explained, so you can pretty much reason anything is a symptom of IT as long as you attach it to some notion of being symbolic, dream like, or abstract. Since the rules of personally experiencing are so ill-defined it's basically a get out of jail ticket for getting out of any objection to the theory. That for me rids it of any meaning and it's effectiveness as a conclusion to a story. That and the whole thing rests on very subtle symbolism which is completely different from anything else in the Mass Effect series. This guy sums it up pretty well.

But don't you also have to simply determine if what is given was intended or not? That's what IT tries it's best to do. yes some of it can be intended or not, but same goes for if you think bioware didn't intend it or not. each has it's own theories and claims/statements. It just boils down to what you learned throughout ME, and what is the one choice you would make. The choice that i pick as many other do pick is Destroy. why because despite how the geth and all synthetics are in the line of fire, it happens. This is not war, it's all advance organic life extinction. How many Reapers have we killed that the catalyst despite claiming it is preserving the organics, use to fathom it's own goals? To many to count i say, and that is not even counting the other cycles that have killed Reapers. All of what the catalyst tells you is the opposite it has been doing, and no matter how it tries to suger it's own reason and logic, it is wrong. Yes organics and synthetics may never get along but so what? just because you may never get along with somebody doesn't mean you don't try too? in this cycle the geth and quarians managed to get along if you had them so. the Reapers never let the galaxy try to have them make peace with one another naturally. it was always forced and forces time after time upon the synthetics and organics. the Reapers used both organics and synthetics to prove it's own points at times that they would never get along.

 

Which is why despite destroy having the Reapers tell you that the cycle will start over again, it's what they want you to believe. They want you to pick control and synthesis, but they can't force you too. you and Shepard have too choose. It's basically twisting your own views and using it against you. symbolism is a very powerful thing it is why i like IT. So much symbolism and themes and truth behind it all. you just have to believe in it or not.

[Han Shot First]

I've always believed the IT was nothing more than head canon born of bitter disappointment and stubborn denial. There is nothing wrong that, until you start mistaking your head canon for writer intent and derail multiple threads by attempting to impose your pet theory on everyone else. That's really where IT ended up going off the rails and getting banned.

[JasonShepard]

Actually Destroy is the only way to go. it has been the prime objective since ME1. Though yes you may see events play out in Destroy ending, however if you have enough points to unlock the breath scene in Destroy ending, which is the LAST possible ending to unlock, then Shepard wakes up. Refuse is just Shepard giving up the fight and nothing more.

 

I've seen versions that go both ways - I was just laying down that the absolute basic of IT is that the finale is an indoctrination induced hallucination, and all but one of the endings results in indoctrination.

 

Which is completely unlike any example of indoctrination previously in the series. Which is why I cannot 'get' IT. IT simply doesn't make sense to me at it's most basic level. Indoctrination has never been shown to work through crazed hallucinations that present final choice scenarios. It's never even been remotely hinted at.

 

(Saren) was played by the Reapers into believing that by working with them and he would be spared. It was never about saving everyone just his own hide.

 

Yes, yes. He was only attempting to save organics since he was an organic and he'd rather not be wiped out himself. That doesn't change that Saren was attempting to convince the Reapers to spare organics by working with them (unaware that the Reapers would probably consider 'harvest and turn into a new Reaper' to come under the definition of 'spare').

 

Reaper indoctrination is making your enemies believe in your side of view. 

 

No, it isn't. TIM never believed in the Reapers' point of view. Even at his most indoctrinated, TIM wanted to control them. I'm pretty sure the Reapers didn't want to be controlled by TIM.

 

However, TIM's desire for Control outweighing his own common sense about Destroy being preferable to extinction - that was due to indoctrination. And it had nothing to do with 'agreeing' with the Reapers.

 

The Reapers' point of view is that all organic and synthetic life must periodically be harvested out to prevent synthetics from completely wiping out organics. TIM never shared that point of view. Neither did Saren. Or Kenson. Or any other indoctrinated person you care to mention.

 

Furthermore, I will note that, despite picking Control, I also do not agree with the Catalyst's Logic. Rannoch is probably the best shot for long term Organic-Synthetic peace that we've ever seen, since Organics and Synthetics working together as equals is unprecedented in the MEU.

 

Moreover IT has said again and i will say it again control and synthesis leave Shepard Indoctrinated

 

Prove. It.

Because that makes no sense to me. I don't see the 'why'. I don't see the 'how'. I just see 'these choices are vaguely similar to what some indoctrinated people wanted - therefore we can't possibly trust them!'

 

And if you are going to try to prove it: I don't want circumstantial evidence - since the best that can do is say 'something strange is happening'. I just want you to prove - and explain - one simple question:

 

How EXACTLY does Control result in Shepard being indoctrinated?

[masster blaster]

That's my understanding. Shep did get shot at by Harbinger. If you let Shepard stand around immediately after entering the Citadel, he/she will cradle that area of their body (LONG before the confrontation in which Anderson gets shot).

 

I've also never liked the suggestion that Shepard and Anderson are bleeding from the exact same spot. We don't see where Anderson gets shot - it's just presumably somewhere in the abdomen, on a not-immediately-vital organ. Shepard is bleeding from the left stomach area (judging from where the hand is placed). It's an assumption to say that they're bleeding in exactly the same spot - the abdomen is a fairly large area (like, you know, the majority of a person's body mass is there).

You do realize that in IT Shepard DID get hit by harbingers beam too only not directly just blown back. if Harbinger really hit Shepard with his beam directly Shepard would be dead. Thus Shepard is in rubble on earth, hence the indoctrination hallucination starts. We already know in the beginning of the game when a Reaper came down during Shepard's trail, well advice plan, a Reaper beam hit the area the first time, but the second time knocked Shepard out and forced him/her back. it's possible that Shepard was blasted into rubble do to the shock of the impact. Hence the breath scene surroundings. though yes it could be citadel or earth, i believe it is most likely the citadel, for that is when everything after the London beam charger is fishy.

 

Anderson being shot in the same area is true, yet that doesn't mean it can be true. if Anderson in IT is Shepard's un-indoctrinated part then it would make sense to have the same wound. a reflection of ones self. But this is also like saying why the catalyst takes the form of a child during a test for that is what crucible is a test. We just assume the Reaper overlord just random picks the boy who died on Earth, that has haunted Shepard since the beginning, and just recently dream-pt of burning with the child after falling it or do we believe that the Reapers manage to get inside Shepard's head and is using the child against Shepard to guilt him/her plus the player that you can still save everyone just pick control and synthesis rather than destroy for what has destroying us accomplished. all of this to turn you over to their side, their way of thinking, but nevertheless it just a matter of opinion overall on BOTH sides. each has it's facts, statements, and own reasons for what is and isn't. I believe Anderson and Shepard have similar wounds for Anderson is part of Shepard.

[ZipZap2000]

There was a news article somewhere claiming that IT was part of the planned ending but that bioware couldn't make it work in time and requested 6 months to finish the game, they were told no. IT was then removed completely from the ending and bioware were forced to rush through with the poorly thought out pre EC endings, which would explain a lot including nonsensical explanations for just about everything, poor graphics (piles of bodies that look 2D and resemble clothes more than anything) and why evidence for IT could be found throughout the game. It's not that theorists had it wrong, they were just mistaken in thinking it was all a troll by bioware. Whatever the case bioware had an opportunity to run with it and extend the story while making a ton of money along the way their loss more than ours.  

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Doesn't it say something when the ending is so bad that people make up a theory saying it was all a dream?

[masster blaster]

There was a news article somewhere claiming that IT was part of the planned ending but that bioware couldn't make it work in time and requested 6 months to finish the game, they were told no. IT was then removed completely from the ending and bioware were forced to rush through with the poorly thought out pre EC endings, which would explain a lot including nonsensical explanations for just about everything, poor graphics (piles of bodies that look 2D and resemble clothes more than anything) and why evidence for IT could be found throughout the game. It's not that theorists had it wrong, they were just mistaken in thinking it was all a troll by bioware. Whatever the case bioware had an opportunity to run with it and extend the story while making a ton of money along the way their loss more than ours.  

Yet when the EC came out they didn't fix it, and leviathan dlc actually helped further push the idea of IT being what happened at the end. It is still all up and the air, but sometimes just because things don't go your way doesn't mean the idea is lost.

 

The Rapers can't do the same indoctrination attempts they did on others in the past. Shepard is a being that is unlike any other. in Arrival Harbinger managed to knock out Shepard with the Reaper artifact, and 2 days Shepard was near the Reaper artifact and nothing, yet if you fail Shepard is given visions to come. in order to break Shepard they have to cut the roots. Sheapard is use to saving everyone he/she can. The player is use to saving everyone he or she can, and this is both Shepard and the players fatle flaw. by having a child that magicaly appers once and a while at the beginning of the game and happens to die right infront of Shepard and is later used at the end of the game. it was all to show Shepard how weak he/she is, and thus this gets him/her to

[Han Shot First]

No, it isn't. TIM never believed in the Reapers' point of view. Even at his most indoctrinated, TIM wanted to control them. I'm pretty sure the Reapers didn't want to be controlled by TIM.

 

I agree with most of your post, except for this bit.

 

Javik reveals that there was an indoctrinated faction similar to Cerberus in his cycle who also thought they could control the Reapers. TIM wanting to control the Reapers was a symptom of his own indoctrination. He was being influenced to oppose the factions fighting the Reapers while operating under the mistaken belief that he was free of indoctrination, and that his cause was both noble and benefited humanity. Meanwhile it was all just an elaborate ruse by the Reapers to divide and conquer.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Doesn't it say something when the ending is so bad that people make up a theory saying it was all a dream?

 

I can imagine ITers being like:

 

when they first here about IT.

[JasonShepard]

Doesn't it say something when the ending is so bad that people make up a theory saying it was all a dream?

 

I think the existence of IT says more that the ending is disliked, not that it's bad. The ending could be grim but perfect, and because people didn't like the grimness, they'd still make theories to get around it regardless of it's actual quality. (However, in this case, the ending is widely dislike because it's considered bad, so the point is moot.)

[JasonShepard]

I agree with most of your post, except for this bit.

 

Javik reveals that there was an indoctrinated faction similar to Cerberus in his cycle who also thought they could control the Reapers. TIM wanting to control the Reapers was a symptom of his own indoctrination. He was being influenced to oppose the factions fighting the Reapers while operating under the mistaken belief that he was free of indoctrination, and that his cause was both noble and benefited humanity. Meanwhile it was all just an elaborate ruse by the Reapers to divide and conquer.

 

masster blaster was saying that Indoctrination caused you to agree with the Reaper's point of view. In driving exclusively for Control (Control itself being something the Reapers obviously would not want), TIM was clearly not agreeing with the point of view of the Reapers. This is the despite the fact that the drive for Control-and-nothing-else is a result of indoctrination. (If there was a civilisation in one cycle that did mostly want to control the Reapers, the Reapers would probably use indoctrination to create a faction that wanted Destroy - again for the sake of divide and conquer.)

 

Essentially, I was demonstrating that indoctrination and agreeing with the Reapers are two separate things.

[masster blaster]

I've seen versions that go both ways - I was just laying down that the absolute basic of IT is that the finale is an indoctrination induced hallucination, and all but one of the endings results in indoctrination.

 

Which is completely unlike any example of indoctrination previously in the series. Which is why I cannot 'get' IT. IT simply doesn't make sense to me at it's most basic level. Indoctrination has never been shown to work through crazed hallucinations that present final choice scenarios. It's never even been remotely hinted at.

 

 

Yes, yes. He was only attempting to save organics since he was an organic and he'd rather not be wiped out himself. That doesn't change that Saren was attempting to convince the Reapers to spare organics by working with them (unaware that the Reapers would probably consider 'harvest and turn into a new Reaper' to come under the definition of 'spare').

 

 

No, it isn't. TIM never believed in the Reapers' point of view. Even at his most indoctrinated, TIM wanted to control them. I'm pretty sure the Reapers didn't want to be controlled by TIM.

 

However, TIM's desire for Control outweighing his own common sense about Destroy being preferable to extinction - that was due to indoctrination. And it had nothing to do with 'agreeing' with the Reapers.

 

The Reapers' point of view is that all organic and synthetic life must periodically be harvested out to prevent synthetics from completely wiping out organics. TIM never shared that point of view. Neither did Saren. Or Kenson. Or any other indoctrinated person you care to mention.

 

Furthermore, I will note that, despite picking Control, I also do not agree with the Catalyst's Logic. Rannoch is probably the best shot for long term Organic-Synthetic peace that we've ever seen, since Organics and Synthetics working together as equals is unprecedented in the MEU.

 

 

Prove. It.

Because that makes no sense to me. I don't see the 'why'. I don't see the 'how'. I just see 'these choices are vaguely similar to what some indoctrinated people wanted - therefore we can't possibly trust them!'

 

And if you are going to try to prove it: I don't want circumstantial evidence - since the best that can do is say 'something strange is happening'. I just want you to prove - and explain - one simple question:

 

How EXACTLY does Control result in Shepard being indoctrinated?

The Rapers can't do the same indoctrination attempts they did on others in the past. Shepard is a being that is unlike any other. in Arrival Harbinger managed to knock out Shepard with the Reaper artifact, and 2 days Shepard was near the Reaper artifact and nothing, yet if you fail Shepard is given visions to come. in order to break Shepard they have to cut the roots. Shepard is use to saving everyone he/she can. The player is use to saving everyone he or she can, and this is both Shepard and the players major flaw. by having a child that magically appears once and a while at the beginning of the game and happens to die right in-front of Shepard and is later used at the end of the game. it was all to show Shepard how weak he/she is, and thus this gets him/her to diverge from destroying the Reapers into saving everyone, yet the hardest choice is to sacrifice few to save the many. the synthetics were in the line of fire. it was nothing personal but if things were reversed it wouldn't matter. history may have called Shepard butcher, but Shepard did it to have the galaxy start a new and simply end all the work the Reapers have done, for it mattered not.

 

But back on topic, yes it has. in ME2 in arrival, and on the directly reaper people were hallucinating things, having nightmares , and voices in their heads. Shepard goes through all of this in ME3. even in the codex it is said that people would hallucinate. The child is a prime example. is vanishes in the duct without making a sound. Anderson does not pay any tension to this, and nor does anyone help the child on the ship. Also just to prove this point Liara made sounds in the ducts on mars. if this was an error just like the mars door that was locked but could open that bioware later fixed, then it would have been corrected too.

 

You do realize by having a "way": to CONTROL the Reapers would in fact boost their indoctrinated agents ten fold?  Indoctrinated people like TIM who want to control the Reapers are simply there to add more people to believe they can control the Reapers, thus subjugating them to the Reapers will. Shepard starts wondering if he/she can control the Reapers as does the player. It's all to change peoples way of thinking. This causes split factions and other races fighting each-other having the Reapers easily win battles for there is a split faction between their enemies.

 

Saren was trying to have SHEPARD believe in him and thus in the Reapers. Saren was a puppet nothing more. his job was to activate the citadel relay and be discarded or end up like the collectors. Nothing Saren would say would convince the Reapers at all, it was all for one purpose, and Saren was nothing more than a pawn at best.

 

 

No where did it state synthetic life is not harvested right? why would they ? it stated synthetics were the problem and thus organics needed to be harvested to be preserved for conflict was bound to happen. However the Reapers use synthetics to kill organics, Saren a pawn for the Reapers uses synthetics to kill organics all to achieve the Reapers plans. the Reapers own way of thinking things is nothing more than hagwash. their goals change and change when something does not go their way. yet it will harvest or it would kill all. TIM wanted to save humanity, Saren was out for himself, Kenson wanted to see the Reapers gifts. each would have ended up in harvesting in the end or like the collectors. Therefore common goal is to accept the Reapers. Indoctrinated agents are also used for other things, and not just agreeing with them too. Rana killed high ranking officers and then she killed herself. each agent has a purpose.

 

That's how i felt too, logic in catalyst is bs, and peace can happen.

 

In truth nobody can prove anything but Bioware. I could try, and you can try to disprove what i say but no matter what i will say others will through it back as straw grasping. It is how it is it seems, and all i can do is make suggestions, and use the info i as well as many others came to a conclusion with. I believe the Reapers are indoctrinating Shepard at the end, and it is up to the player to believe whether or not Shepard is under going indoctrination or not. I like to believe that you have to research the answers and find ones your own instead of accepting what is in front of you. Thus the art the casey mention would make sense. Instead of believing in what you see, why don't you look further into things for you may never know the full story or reason behind it all.

[masster blaster]

masster blaster was saying that Indoctrination caused you to agree with the Reaper's point of view. In driving exclusively for Control (Control itself being something the Reapers obviously would not want), TIM was clearly not agreeing with the point of view of the Reapers. This is the despite the fact that the drive for Control-and-nothing-else is a result of indoctrination. (If there was a civilisation in one cycle that did mostly want to control the Reapers, the Reapers would probably use indoctrination to create a faction that wanted Destroy - again for the sake of divide and conquer.)

 

Essentially, I was demonstrating that indoctrination and agreeing with the Reapers are two separate things.

The Reapers use TIM's own goals towards their own. Sanctuary was a staging ground to build an army , though TIM was basically experimenting on them the Reapers troops in order to control them it was all a shame. It was to have Shepard see controlling them was possible. Wouldn't you have your greatest enemy see that there is a way to control the Reapers and prepare a final test, hence the crucible, to see if Shepard would try to control the Reapers? I would. it gives my enemy false hope to which harbinger says " Hope is irrelevant".  No matter what TIM's goals were it was all used to serve the Reapers, just like Saren, just like Kenson, Rana, and anyone else indoctrinated. They may have not liked it but in the end the one calling the shots was the Reapers.

[ImaginaryMatter]

About the Indoctrination hallucinations. The hallucinations of the child would be quite different from the hallucinations experienced by every one else under the effects of Indoctrination experiencing hallucinations. Also, hallucinations are a symptom of later stage Indoctrination which Vendetta does not detect. Even if for some reason Vendetta couldn't pick up on it Shepard would still have progressed into a later stage of Indoctrination.

[masster blaster]

About the Indoctrination hallucinations. The hallucinations of the child would be quite different from the hallucinations experienced by every one else under the effects of Indoctrination experiencing hallucinations. Also, hallucinations are a symptom of later stage Indoctrination which Vendetta does not detect. Even if for some reason Vendetta couldn't pick up on it Shepard would still have progressed into a later stage of Indoctrination.

Be that as it may Shepard at some point in time the Reapers managed to slowly begin the indoctrination process. when is still unknown unless you played the arrival. As for the detecting Indoctrinated people Vi's.... ehhh i think it is only when you are fully indoctrinated/under their will. Shepard has not gone through that yet. if the VI could detect the indoctrinated presence already within Shepard then the protheans would not have fallen so easily too.

[AlanC9]

The Reapers use TIM's own goals towards their own. Sanctuary was a staging ground to build an army , though TIM was basically experimenting on them the Reapers troops in order to control them it was all a shame. It was to have Shepard see controlling them was possible. Wouldn't you have your greatest enemy see that there is a way to control the Reapers and prepare a final test, hence the crucible, to see if Shepard would try to control the Reapers? .

Final test? Even by your standards that doesn't make sense. How does Horizon tell the Reapers anything about what Shepard will or won't do? And how did the Reapers contrive to get Shepard to Horizon at exactly the right time?

And if the Reapers are so in control of what happens with the Crucible, why aren't we doomed anyway? Or are you from that IT splinter faction that says Refuse is the best option?

[masster blaster]

Even by your standards that doesn't make sense. How does Horizon tell the Reapers anything about what Shepard will or won't do?

Shepard has already consider the idea about controlling the Reapers due to TIM's conversations with him and the research behind it. If you think about it having Shepard see it is possible in controlling the Reapers is key. It let's Shepard build false hope ( mind you in IT way of thinking). By having Shepard at least think of the possibility of controlling the Reapers it sets up the next stage in the Reapers grand agenda. At the very end Shepard is looking for a better way than Destroy, the catalyst suggest that Shepard can control them. The problem here is that we seen those who wanted to control the Reapers just mere indoctrinated agents for them. The player is lead to believe that your Shepard can control them because he/she is Shepard, much like how some people say Shepard is immune to indoctrination because there is no way Shepard can. The false sense of security is what the Reapers want you to think. Be in mind this is in an IT view. In literal view you either trust the catalyst or not. Me i don't trust it, nor would i control the Reapers. Destroy is the way, despite how it is killing the geth, EDI, and the things that will happen after.

[AlanC9]

That is an obviously stupid plan. If they want to build up a false hope they should come up with a false hope that isn't associated with TIM in the first place. The Reapers are trying to solve a credibility problem that they created for themselves.

I'm starting to remember why I usually don't bother reading your theories.

[masster blaster]

That is an obviously stupid plan. If they want to build up a false hope they should come up with a false hope that isn't associated with TIM in the first place. The Reapers are trying to solve a credibility problem that they created for themselves.

I'm starting to remember why I usually don't bother reading your theories.

coming from the guy who said he was done with this and yet comes back for more? ha. But really a stupid plan is your opinion, i think it is a good one. Subjugate your enemy by having the choice of controlling them yet in reality the Reapers control your Shepard now. ha genius.

[AlanC9]

Yep, I showed up for this again. But it's a dull night around here. And of course you'd think that this crap is brilliant.

You still haven't explained why the Reapers have TIM act like he's on their side if they're trying to sell his plan to Shepard. Wouldn't that plan work better if TIM wasn't acting like an indoctrinated tool? How stupid are the Reapers supposed to be?