937 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

Why would the Reapers go through all the trouble of using TIM to suggest control then try to continuously kill Shepard or possibly not offer it up as a choice anyway?

 

Are the Reapers bipolar?

[Farangbaa]

The Rapers can't do the same indoctrination attempts they did on others in the past. Shepard is a being that is unlike any other. in Arrival Harbinger managed to knock out Shepard with the Reaper artifact, and 2 days Shepard was near the Reaper artifact and nothing, yet if you fail Shepard is given visions to come. in order to break Shepard they have to cut the roots. Shepard is use to saving everyone he/she can. The player is use to saving everyone he or she can, and this is both Shepard and the players major flaw. by having a child that magically appears once and a while at the beginning of the game and happens to die right in-front of Shepard and is later used at the end of the game. it was all to show Shepard how weak he/she is, and thus this gets him/her to diverge from destroying the Reapers into saving everyone, yet the hardest choice is to sacrifice few to save the many. the synthetics were in the line of fire. it was nothing personal but if things were reversed it wouldn't matter. history may have called Shepard butcher, but Shepard did it to have the galaxy start a new and simply end all the work the Reapers have done, for it mattered not.

 

But back on topic, yes it has. in ME2 in arrival, and on the directly reaper people were hallucinating things, having nightmares , and voices in their heads. Shepard goes through all of this in ME3. even in the codex it is said that people would hallucinate. The child is a prime example. is vanishes in the duct without making a sound. Anderson does not pay any tension to this, and nor does anyone help the child on the ship. Also just to prove this point Liara made sounds in the ducts on mars. if this was an error just like the mars door that was locked but could open that bioware later fixed, then it would have been corrected too.

 

You do realize by having a "way": to CONTROL the Reapers would in fact boost their indoctrinated agents ten fold?  Indoctrinated people like TIM who want to control the Reapers are simply there to add more people to believe they can control the Reapers, thus subjugating them to the Reapers will. Shepard starts wondering if he/she can control the Reapers as does the player. It's all to change peoples way of thinking. This causes split factions and other races fighting each-other having the Reapers easily win battles for there is a split faction between their enemies.

 

Saren was trying to have SHEPARD believe in him and thus in the Reapers. Saren was a puppet nothing more. his job was to activate the citadel relay and be discarded or end up like the collectors. Nothing Saren would say would convince the Reapers at all, it was all for one purpose, and Saren was nothing more than a pawn at best.

 

 

No where did it state synthetic life is not harvested right? why would they ? it stated synthetics were the problem and thus organics needed to be harvested to be preserved for conflict was bound to happen. However the Reapers use synthetics to kill organics, Saren a pawn for the Reapers uses synthetics to kill organics all to achieve the Reapers plans. the Reapers own way of thinking things is nothing more than hagwash. their goals change and change when something does not go their way. yet it will harvest or it would kill all. TIM wanted to save humanity, Saren was out for himself, Kenson wanted to see the Reapers gifts. each would have ended up in harvesting in the end or like the collectors. Therefore common goal is to accept the Reapers. Indoctrinated agents are also used for other things, and not just agreeing with them too. Rana killed high ranking officers and then she killed herself. each agent has a purpose.

 

That's how i felt too, logic in catalyst is bs, and peace can happen.

 

In truth nobody can prove anything but Bioware. I could try, and you can try to disprove what i say but no matter what i will say others will through it back as straw grasping. It is how it is it seems, and all i can do is make suggestions, and use the info i as well as many others came to a conclusion with. I believe the Reapers are indoctrinating Shepard at the end, and it is up to the player to believe whether or not Shepard is under going indoctrination or not. I like to believe that you have to research the answers and find ones your own instead of accepting what is in front of you. Thus the art the casey mention would make sense. Instead of believing in what you see, why don't you look further into things for you may never know the full story or reason behind it all.

 

Shepard tries to save everyone he can?

 

Tell that to the Feros colony, the Rachni Queen and the Rachni, the Council, the stillborn Krogan, the Geth or Quarians, Aresh, Legion (or if not, the destroyed Heretics), the factory workers on Zorya, the Rachni Queen and the Rachni again.

 

And that's just from the top of my head.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Shepard tries to save everyone he can?

 

Tell that to the Feros colony, the Rachni Queen and the Rachni, the Council, the stillborn Krogan, the Geth or Quarians, Aresh, Legion (or if not, the destroyed Heretics), the factory workers on Zorya, the Rachni Queen and the Rachni again.

 

And that's just from the top of my head.

 

Not only that but the dialogue allows the option to be fairly dismissive of half those.

[masster blaster]

Yep, I showed up for this again. But it's a dull night around here. And of course you'd think that this crap is brilliant.

You still haven't explained why the Reapers have TIM act like he's on their side if they're trying to sell his plan to Shepard. Wouldn't that plan work better if TIM wasn't acting like an indoctrinated tool? How stupid are the Reapers supposed to be?

That is your opinion. Much like how i see it vise versa towards what you think. I still respect your opinion none the less  but i have explained and you called it stupid. No matter how much i explain to you about it you are just going to hand wave it away. No matter what a fully indoctrinated person is on their side. However you can either take your own life, fight, or simply give in.  TIM is meant for experimentation of humans, and breeding a army and attacking colonies and outpost that are important in the war effort. They are the Reapers black ops, yet expendable if need be. Much like how Harbinger with the collectors, failure and the Reapers would abandon their creations.

 

However TIM's prime objective is to show Shepard that there is some glimmer of hope that, there is a way to control the Reapers. This again leads the player to believe that controlling the Reapers is possible and Shepard can wonder about how it might be possible, but hackett tells Shepard that it would be like taming a shark, and is still unknown. All of this just to have Shepard find another way to save the lives of everyone in the end for that's what the players want to do and Shepard. Whether you take it into consideration i honestly don't care for no matter what i say it will never convinces you other wise.

 

"And if the Reapers are so in control of what happens with the Crucible, why aren't we doomed anyway? Or are you from that IT splinter faction that says Refuse is the best option?"

 

Because if you gathered enough war assets Shepard can survive in Destroy ending. Usually if you don't have enough war assets the crucible is damage, yet the word crucible means a test, so if you think of it as a test, then by not having enough war assets you were not prepared for the final test, thus you will fail. Shepard can not be saved from Harbingers grasp if we take IT into factor that Shepard is still on Earth, covered in rubble from Harbingers blast. If you had enough war assets to unlock the breath scene, then it could very mean that the Normandy or some other team is distracting Harbinger long enough for Shepard to wake up.

 

Also no i am not a refuse fan of any. Refuse is just Shepard giving up, and nothing more.

[masster blaster]

Shepard tries to save everyone he can?

 

Tell that to the Feros colony, the Rachni Queen and the Rachni, the Council, the stillborn Krogan, the Geth or Quarians, Aresh, Legion (or if not, the destroyed Heretics), the factory workers on Zorya, the Rachni Queen and the Rachni again.

 

And that's just from the top of my head.

victory or death. Save the galaxy by making the hard choices. Did you not kill all those people, and races just to save the galaxy and to further your cause? Even for renegade Shepard at the end for Destroy he/she looks for another way " There has to be another way". So if renegade Shepard is having second thoughts about destroying the Reapers even if the geth are already all but dead then you know something is not right with Shepard.

[masster blaster]

Not only that but the dialogue allows the option to be fairly dismissive of half those.

You forget that all the choices you make are to save the galaxy. The way you play is the way you play. If you kill all those people and races then that is on you, and your Shepard. You hold the fate of the galaxy.

[masster blaster]

Why would the Reapers go through all the trouble of using TIM to suggest control then try to continuously kill Shepard or possibly not offer it up as a choice anyway?

 

Are the Reapers bipolar?

Shepard is only valuable to them if Shepard proves his/her worth. If Shepard can not survive all that the Reapers throw at him/her then Shepard is useless. However if Shepard survives all that the Reapers have thrown at him/her, then Shepard is ready to become either and Indoctrinated agent, or possibly the a Reaper capital ship. It is why Harbinger wanted Shepard in ME2. Shepard foiled their plans in ME1 , for the first time that we know of the Reapers failed to come through the relay citadel. this wants Harbinger to capture Shepard dead or alive, but wanted his/her body. even if dead Shepard is valuable to the Reapers so long as his/her body is intact. Plus the greatest insult the Reapers could do is convert Shepard to their side. It's easy to kill Shepard if they wanted to when charging down the conduit in ME3, yet Harbinger misses on purpose despite the accuracy it has. YOu could say plot armor, but if they changed the Normandy scene and that of the endings a bit, then there is no reason why harbinger should not hit Shepard and end it? If Anderson is on the citadel later, and one of our squad members that is still on Earth is near the conduit then you can play as Anderson or squad mate.

[Farangbaa]

victory or death. Save the galaxy by making the hard choices. Did you not kill all those people, and races just to save the galaxy and to further your cause? Even for renegade Shepard at the end for Destroy he/she looks for another way " There has to be another way". So if renegade Shepard is having second thoughts about destroying the Reapers even if the geth are already all but dead then you know something is not right with Shepard.

'There has to be another way' --> 'I don't wanna die, give me another option'

[masster blaster]

'There has to be another way' --> 'I don't wanna die, give me another option'

And what do you think the Reapers want from Shepard? That is the thing. in control you live AND save the galaxy right. The Reapers have Shepard and the galaxy at their beckon call. in synthesis Shepard dies yet saves the galaxy, in Destroy Shepard dies or CAN live. Shepard doesn't know this, but the catalyst knows Shepard would die. it makes no sense what so ever, yet it seems the catalyst had enough foresight to see Shepard die. Nevertheless controlling the Reapers allows Shepard to live, thus is perfect for indoctrinating Shepard. It is Saren all over again. Shepard trying to save his/her hide.

[Farangbaa]

And what do you think the Reapers want from Shepard? That is the thing. in control you live AND save the galaxy right. The Reapers have Shepard and the galaxy at their beckon call. in synthesis Shepard dies yet saves the galaxy, in Destroy Shepard dies or CAN live. Shepard doesn't know this, but the catalyst knows Shepard would die. it makes no sense what so ever, yet it seems the catalyst had enough foresight to see Shepard die. Nevertheless controlling the Reapers allows Shepard to live, thus is perfect for indoctrinating Shepard. It is Saren all over again. Shepard trying to save his/her hide.

So that's why the Reapers attack Sanctuary; to make Shepard believe control is possible. Devious little buggers.

lol lol.

[masster blaster]

So that's why the Reapers attack Sanctuary; to make Shepard believe control is possible. Devious little buggers.

lol lol.

If Shepard can be willing to sacrifices so much, the Reapers can do the same. Cerberus is just another tool for the Reapers. Just like the collectors were. Staging up an attack on Sanctuary does not surprise me. And that is what i believe as do many others. It is just looking at it from a different view, hence IT. It could be happening and it might not be, yet i prefer IT over the things we see at face value if we just see it as one horrible mess.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Shepard is only valuable to them if Shepard proves his/her worth. If Shepard can not survive all that the Reapers throw at him/her then Shepard is useless. However if Shepard survives all that the Reapers have thrown at him/her, then Shepard is ready to become either and Indoctrinated agent, or possibly the a Reaper capital ship. It is why Harbinger wanted Shepard in ME2. Shepard foiled their plans in ME1 , for the first time that we know of the Reapers failed to come through the relay citadel. this wants Harbinger to capture Shepard dead or alive, but wanted his/her body. even if dead Shepard is valuable to the Reapers so long as his/her body is intact. Plus the greatest insult the Reapers could do is convert Shepard to their side. It's easy to kill Shepard if they wanted to when charging down the conduit in ME3, yet Harbinger misses on purpose despite the accuracy it has. YOu could say plot armor, but if they changed the Normandy scene and that of the endings a bit, then there is no reason why harbinger should not hit Shepard and end it? If Anderson is on the citadel later, and one of our squad members that is still on Earth is near the conduit then you can play as Anderson or squad mate.

 

That's pretty silly. Why do the Reapers have this completely arbitrary standard? Where did it come from?

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

That's pretty silly. Why do the Reapers have this completely arbitrary standard? Where did it come from?

 

Headcanon. IT HAS TO BE REAL!

[masster blaster]

That's pretty silly. Why do the Reapers have this completely arbitrary standard? Where did it come from?

And that's the thing, we don't know. We speculated about it, but it leaves the Reapers as a mystery rather than what the catalyst explains they are. Reapers are each a nation free, independent, yet they work as one for they believe to be the pinnacle of evolution, and would see advance organics either harvested or killed off. To you and others it may seem silly but when you look at it the whole ending is silly in general, thus it makes it more like one horrible nightmare, when it is really an indoctrination attempt. It is a different kind of boss battle, only it's a huge gamble. Whether you make the right choice is up too you, however in seeing all that the Reapers have done, Destroy is the beacon of hope. Thus if you have high enough EMS, you unlock Destroy ending breath scene, the highest possible ending you can get. Despite how people view it as genocide, or that of even think the cycle would start over, maybe it will maybe it will not. If you take the catalyst words to heart then that means Shepard would have died, which Shepard can yet managed to survive enough with high ems.

 

In truth i rather let the future races decide on what is best. For no matter what conflict will always raise, but that doesn't mean we just force people to accept things, they have to figure them out themselves, and hopefully build a better future, and if not hope the next generation does.

[ImaginaryMatter]

If Shepard can be willing to sacrifices so much, the Reapers can do the same. Cerberus is just another tool for the Reapers. Just like the collectors were. Staging up an attack on Sanctuary does not surprise me. And that is what i believe as do many others. It is just looking at it from a different view, hence IT. It could be happening and it might not be, yet i prefer IT over the things we see at face value if we just see it as one horrible mess.

 

That's the thing though, IT is also a horrible mess. There are so many contrivances and leaps of logic one has to somersault through in order to simply stomach this thing. And even after all of those mental gymnastics you still have this ruin where the rules and consistency of the game world use to stand.

[ImaginaryMatter]

And that's the thing, we don't know. We speculated about it, but it leaves the Reapers as a mystery rather than what the catalyst explains they are. Reapers are each a nation free, independent, yet they work as one for they believe to be the pinnacle of evolution, and would see advance organics either harvested or killed off. To you and others it may seem silly but when you look at it the whole ending is silly in general, thus it makes it more like one horrible nightmare, when it is really an indoctrination attempt. It is a different kind of boss battle, only it's a huge gamble. Whether you make the right choice is up too you, however in seeing all that the Reapers have done, Destroy is the beacon of hope. Thus if you have high enough EMS, you unlock Destroy ending breath scene, the highest possible ending you can get. Despite how people view it as genocide, or that of even think the cycle would start over, maybe it will maybe it will not. If you take the catalyst words to heart then that means Shepard would have died, which Shepard can yet managed to survive enough with high ems.

 

In truth i rather let the future races decide on what is best. For no matter what conflict will always raise, but that doesn't mean we just force people to accept things, they have to figure them out themselves, and hopefully build a better future, and if not hope the next generation does.

 

Mysterious =/= completely random and contradicting actions. IT makes the Reapers look like their playing some advanced version of Twitch harvest-the-galaxy.

[masster blaster]

That's the thing though, IT is also a horrible mess. There are so many contrivances and leaps of logic one has to somersault through in order to simply stomach this thing. And even after all of those mental gymnastics you still have this ruin where the rules and consistency of the game world use to stand.

To be fair that is what a lot of people in the past history have done too. It takes time to understand or at least see it from another view and stomach it all. That is true, yet at least it leaves room for bioware to work on. It can be salvaged to say at least, yet if bioware starts a new ME game that has all the things we know yet is just basically rebooting the series then it really does mean they do not know what they are doing anymore with ME. That is just my opinion about this.

[masster blaster]

Mysterious =/= completely random and contradicting actions. IT makes the Reapers look like their playing some advanced version of Twitch harvest-the-galaxy.

It's more like a mind game battle. You have to think before you react, remember all that you can from playing the past three ME games, and make your move. it's basically one final test. Hence the crucible.  Reapers in ME3 contradicting it's actions already. they have used Geth to kill organics, they are trying to stop synthetics from killing organics, i mean none of what the catalyst is stating makes any sense. However the Reapers fooling Shepard is something that what they would do.

[ImaginaryMatter]

To be fair that is what a lot of people in the past history have done too. It takes time to understand or at least see it from another view and stomach it all. That is true, yet at least it leaves room for bioware to work on. It can be salvaged to say at least, yet if bioware starts a new ME game that has all the things we know yet is just basically rebooting the series then it really does mean they do not know what they are doing anymore with ME. That is just my opinion about this.

 

No, it's nothing like history at all. Accepting IT is an issue of logic and consistency within a story. The difference with ITers is that they are willing to overlook the huge gaps in their pet theory so they can feel better about the ending.

 

It's more like a mind game battle. You have to think before you react, remember all that you can from playing the past three ME games, and make your move. it's basically one final test. Hence the crucible.  Reapers in ME3 contradicting it's actions already. they have used Geth to kill organics, they are trying to stop synthetics from killing organics, i mean none of what the catalyst is stating makes any sense. However the Reapers fooling Shepard is something that what they would do.

 

???

 

Also, you don't have a clear understanding on the Catalyst's stated goals.

[masster blaster]

No, it's nothing like history at all. Accepting IT is an issue of logic and consistency within a story. The difference with ITers is that they are willing to overlook the huge gaps in their pet theory so they can feel better about the ending.

 

 

???

 

Also, you don't have a clear understanding on the Catalyst's stated goals.

what you mean trying to find a solution to stop organics and synthetics form fighting one another, to preserve organic life is the only way it knows how to save organics form being destroy by synthetics? I think i understand it perfectly, just that what it has been doing contradicts it's own logic, and it has been living a a false way of doing things. It has never let the galaxy it'self solve the problem, it has forced it to become solved and ended up horribly. In order to at least stop the cycle for once organics and synthetics have to come together as one and work with one another the best they can. There will always be conflict but there can be peace if they allow it so.

 

Look at it this way, instead of fighting the main boss with a gun and shooting everywhere, you have to use your mind to battle the boss. The boss is trying to get you too choose control and synthesis by telling you the horrible outcomes Destroy will have rather than for synthesis and control also. it is all positive in synthesis and control from what it tells you, and we have to take the word of the enemy, or you stick to what you remember from the past ME games.

[Farangbaa]

yet i prefer IT over the things we see at face value if we just see it as one horrible mess.

Thank you for clearing up IT in a single sentence.

Cause that is all that it is, and nothing more.

[masster blaster]

Thank you for clearing up IT in a single sentence.

Cause that is all that it is, and nothing more.

i meant literal endings. no IT is a horrible mess. too you and others it is and to me and others it is not. your opinion is yours and mine is mine.

[ImaginaryMatter]

what you mean trying to find a solution to stop organics and synthetics form fighting one another, to preserve organic life is the only way it knows how to save organics form being destroy by synthetics? I think i understand it perfectly, just that what it has been doing contradicts it's own logic, and it has been living a a false way of doing things. It has never let the galaxy it'self solve the problem, it has forced it to become solved and ended up horribly. In order to at least stop the cycle for once organics and synthetics have to come together as one and work with one another the best they can. There will always be conflict but there can be peace if they allow it so.

 

Look at it this way, instead of fighting the main boss with a gun and shooting everywhere, you have to use your mind to battle the boss. The boss is trying to get you too choose control and synthesis by telling you the horrible outcomes Destroy will have rather than for synthesis and control also. it is all positive in synthesis and control from what it tells you, and we have to take the word of the enemy, or you stick to what you remember from the past ME games.

 

Yes, you missed the point.

 

IT is completely arbitrary, that's what we've been saying. There is no rhyme or reason for any of this. You are taking your subjective "what the game tells us" spiel, running it through a series of contrivances, then trying to package it as something other than fan fiction. It's not a matter of looking at the ending situation from another view but rather swallowing a bunch of logically adverse conjecture. Yes, the ending has lot's of failings and if fanon is your way out of it that's cool. Just don't pretend it's anything more than that.

[Farangbaa]

i meant literal endings. no IT is a horrible mess. too you and others it is and to me and others it is not. your opinion is yours and mine is mine.

Not referring to the horrible mess, but prefering something else over what you see.

[masster blaster]

What huge gaps hmmm? We covered everything we could and gave everyone answers the best we could. If you don't like them than fine, but we speculated the game, the comics, the whole dam things just to back up our findings. Yet you....you simply just critics everything we find and think it unworthy, stupid, and freaking hilarious. I said history because all the times people tried to prove their findings ended up as laughing stocks, called stupid, and simply were bashed to hell. Over time however people saw their views and began integrating it within society.

 

Yes i know that some ITers just hand wave everything you also brings up but i am not that way, and nor is everyone else. I have been doing my best to meet your requirements and yet it is still not enough. I have done all i can to show you from a different prospective how how i see things, and explain them to you, however you are just simply brushing it aside and complain and complain about anything i bring up. You say we don't bring this up and we don't know what we are talking about.......we have, yet you ignore, while WE tackle what you want us to explain to you all about.