937 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

The EDI you saw in the synthesis ending of the Extended Cut was indoctrinated. Same with Shepard in the control ending.

Indoctrination does not apply to synthetics. 

 

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

[Iakus]

 

Indoctrination does not apply to synthetics. 

 

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

 

You don' t think the Heretic virus from ME2 was a form of indoctrination?

[Vazgen]

You don' t think the Heretic virus from ME2 was a form of indoctrination?

Nope. It was what it was called - a virus. It was not an insidious manipulation, it was a straight-up rewrite. Organics exhibit power to break free of indoctrination, as evidenced by Saren, TIM and Benezia. It is not the case with the heretic virus. 

[SwobyJ]

Synthesis is such perfect indoctrination and/or rewrite that it might be considered something else entirely. It is, if we take it as shown and explained, a Reaper-oriented transcendence of all organics and all synthetics (including Reapers themselves).

 

You may not be comfortable with that outcome, regardless of any of its benefits. Shepard certainly wouldn't have been until he's in his specific situation and state and possible knowledge base that he has right at the very end. So pick another option. In fact, go for Breath Destroy, whatever.

[masster blaster]

Nope. It was what it was called - a virus. It was not an insidious manipulation, it was a straight-up rewrite. Organics exhibit power to break free of indoctrination, as evidenced by Saren, TIM and Benezia. It is not the case with the heretic virus. 

Synthetics can be given a math error much like the geth were if you choose to correct the Math error in ME2. Synthetic terms it is hacking ones systems and reprogramming. organic terms it is Indoctrination. So Edi would very well be rewritten in synthesis in which EVERYONE would have to be indoctrinated/reprogrammed since nobody in their right minds would live their lives with the Reapers. There would be blood, war, death, destruction, chaos still. SO yeah.

 

HOWEVER synthesis DOES give synthetics the organic process of feeling alive so in very weird highly unlikely terms EDI is "Indoctrinated" since she now has awareness of an Organic. Sill go with being reprogrammed.

[Vazgen]

 

Synthetics can be given a math error much like the geth were if you choose to correct the Math error in ME2. Synthetic terms it is hacking ones systems and reprogramming. organic terms it is Indoctrination. So Edi would very well be rewritten in synthesis in which EVERYONE would have to be indoctrinated/reprogrammed since nobody in their right minds would live their lives with the Reapers. There would be blood, war, death, destruction, chaos still. SO yeah.

 

HOWEVER synthesis DOES give synthetics the organic process of feeling alive so in very weird highly unlikely terms EDI is "Indoctrinated" since she now has awareness of an Organic. Sill go with being reprogrammed.

I argue against the use of the term "indoctrination". It does not apply to synthetics. Reprogramming, rewriting, upgrading do. EDI is definitely changed. "Only now do I feel alive". 

 

I see Synthesis is pure BS. But I would not necessarily say that everyone needs to be brainwashed to live in peace in Synthesized world. By what we see, Synthesis fundamentally alters every being in the galaxy. Nobody is no longer his/her older self. Everyone gets new perspective on life, new challenges, new possibilities. I can see there being peace with everyone still having free will. Even Wreav. 

[AlanC9]

I'll ask the usual question. Do we even know that there will be "peace" in Synthesis? We know that there won't be organic/synthetic conflict because that dichotomy has been abolished. But what does that have to do with other conflicts? Or are we just assuming peace for the sake of the argument?

[AlanC9]

That script was a very early draft of the game. Not what I consider a reliable source. 

You mean it's not a reliable source for the state of the game at the time it was written? That there really was an indoctrination sequence at that point but that one piece somehow didn't make it into the leak?


 

Shepard's eyes were enough for me. He's indoctrinated, just like TIM and Saren. Also, the Extended Cut confirmed Shepard and EDI were indoctrinated. It was *very* subtle.

Or you're deluding yourself.

[Vazgen]

I'll ask the usual question. Do we even know that there will be "peace" in Synthesis? We know that there won't be organic/synthetic conflict because that dichotomy has been abolished. But what does that have to do with other conflicts? Or are we just assuming peace for the sake of the argument?

Wreav leads krogan peacefully which is not the case for other endings with the same decisions.

[Helios969]

 

 

I argue against the use of the term "indoctrination". It does not apply to synthetics. Reprogramming, rewriting, upgrading do. EDI is definitely changed. "Only now do I feel alive". 

 

I see Synthesis is pure BS. But I would not necessarily say that everyone needs to be brainwashed to live in peace in Synthesized world. By what we see, Synthesis fundamentally alters every being in the galaxy. Nobody is no longer his/her older self. Everyone gets new perspective on life, new challenges, new possibilities. I can see there being peace with everyone still having free will. Even Wreav. 

 

It's probably just semantics but I don't see a meaningful difference between organic indoctrination and reprogramming synthetics.  You can easily view indoctrination as reprogramming of thought processes to reach a different conclusion much in the way Legion's Heretics were trying to introduce a virus in the Geth to get them to accept their logic.  At the end of the day both are forms of brainwashing.

 

Synthesis, yeah, total BS.  As if understanding one another is all it takes to coexist.  If it's my family vs. your family for the last of the food...I can sympathize, I can empathize, but I'm taking that food.

[Vazgen]

It's probably just semantics but I don't see a meaningful difference between organic indoctrination and reprogramming synthetics.  You can easily view indoctrination as reprogramming of thought processes to reach a different conclusion much in the way Legion's Heretics were trying to introduce a virus in the Geth to get them to accept their logic.  At the end of the day both are forms of brainwashing.

 

Synthesis, yeah, total BS.  As if understanding one another is all it takes to coexist.  If it's my family vs. your family for the last of the food...I can sympathize, I can empathize, but I'm taking that food.

Organic indoctrination does not force, it suggests and manipulates. It influences a person, manipulates their inner desires and fears to push Reaper agenda. Organics are not permanently reprogrammed, they can break free, even with extensive implantation. 

 

In case of synthetics its permanent. There is no manipulation, there is blunt rewrite of the code. There is no way to break free from that. 

 

Understanding is the very issue supposedly solved with Synthesis. "Synthetics will finally get full understanding of organics" or something like that (don't remember the exact line). And it also changes DNA of every being in the galaxy. Our perceptions, morals, world understanding may not apply to those new species. Imagine if understanding is a side effect of a strong connection between all organics and synthetics. If you feel loss when someone you never met dies. It'll eliminate wars without the need for brainwashing. I'm not going to speculate on what Synthesis actually does, I doubt even the writers thought of it. I'll just shoot the tube

[Helios969]

Yep, when in doubt shoot the tube.

 

Again, I don't see a big difference between between indoctrination of organics and rewriting of synthetics, but you raise a good point and one that has always made me question the validity and more importantly reliability of indoctrinating organics.  Whereas synthetic life follows a set and largely uniform method of manufacturing and programming (same/similar integrated circuitry pattern utilized...same/similar programming routine implemented) organic brains are comprised 100 billion neurons and pathways that are formed throughout our early life and from human to human are as unique as fingerprints.  That would require the Reapers to employ hundreds perhaps thousands of different Indoctrination protocols to control humans on the large scale (and never fully reliable.)  I always head-canoned that diversity (more so than the other races) in humankind made us less susceptible to indoctrination and the main reason why Harbinger and the Collectors started targeting human colonies in ME2.

[AlanC9]

Wreav leads krogan peacefully which is not the case for other endings with the same decisions.

OK, thanks. I've never seen that myself -- Wrex was alive the only time I picked Synthesis.

[AlanC9]

Again, I don't see a big difference between between indoctrination of organics and rewriting of synthetics, but you raise a good point and one that has always made me question the validity and more importantly reliability of indoctrinating organics.  Whereas synthetic life follows a set and largely uniform method of manufacturing and programming (same/similar integrated circuitry pattern utilized...same/similar programming routine implemented) organic brains are comprised 100 billion neurons and pathways that are formed throughout our early life and from human to human are as unique as fingerprints.  That would require the Reapers to employ hundreds perhaps thousands of different Indoctrination protocols to control humans on the large scale (and never fully reliable.)  I always head-canoned that diversity (more so than the other races) in humankind made us less susceptible to indoctrination and the main reason why Harbinger and the Collectors started targeting human colonies in ME2.

Is the italed actually true?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Synthesis, yeah, total BS.  As if understanding one another is all it takes to coexist.  If it's my family vs. your family for the last of the food...I can sympathize, I can empathize, but I'm taking that food.

 

I think the idea behind Synthesis is to empower people to create more proverbial food.

 

Then again, I do not look at the endings through gloom-and-doom lens. So, F me, right?

[SwobyJ]

It's probably just semantics but I don't see a meaningful difference between organic indoctrination and reprogramming synthetics.  You can easily view indoctrination as reprogramming of thought processes to reach a different conclusion much in the way Legion's Heretics were trying to introduce a virus in the Geth to get them to accept their logic.  At the end of the day both are forms of brainwashing.

 

Synthesis, yeah, total BS.  As if understanding one another is all it takes to coexist.  If it's my family vs. your family for the last of the food...I can sympathize, I can empathize, but I'm taking that food.

 

But they're post scarcity. IMO.

 

What do they 'need', that someone else has? They all have everything. Together.

[Vazgen]

So if the Geth are non-violent and peaceful, how do you explain the Geth that followed Sovereign? They viewed Sovereign as a "some kind of God. A pinnacle of their own evolution" in Saren's own words. Similar words were used by TIM, who was indoctrinated. I am the pinnacle of our species, he shouted, right before you shot him.

 

The Geth in ME3 came under Reaper control, by use of a signal which you had to shut off by going into that server environment.

 

After turning off the Reaper signal, they went back to their normal peaceful selves. Organics are implanted with Reaper tech. Any synthetic machine like the Geth are controlled by the Reapers.

Heretics willingly joined the Reapers. They came to that conclusion themselves.

"Nazara, the entity you call Sovereign, signaled us."

"The heretics accepted their technology."

"The heretics' conclusion is valid for them. Our conclusion is valid for us. Neither result is an error. An analogy. Heretics say one is less than two. Geth say two is less than three."

 

You shut off the signal without going to the servers. That mission is optional. You first disable long range signal from the dreadnought and then disable short range signal by killing the Rannoch Reaper. After that, "the geth are no longer controlled by the Old Machines", they lose their upgrades. The "infection" you remove from the servers is Reaper upgrades that Legion uploads to save the geth. Except Legion's version does not have built-in Reaper obedience protocols.

 

In case of organics, being controlled by the Reapers = indoctrination. In case of synthetics, being controlled by the Reapers = reprogramming, rewrite, upgrade etc. Not indoctrination.

 

P.S. I never said that the geth are non-violent and peaceful. This is a discussion for another time though.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Shepard's eyes were enough for me. He's indoctrinated, just like TIM and Saren. Also, the Extended Cut confirmed Shepard and EDI were indoctrinated. It was *very* subtle.

 

Except, TIM's and Saren's eyes were like that because the eyes themselves were synthetic and that Shepard, due to the Lazarus project, also has synthetic eyes. That maybe, when Shepard was being dissolved, he was being stripped down to the robotics underneath? Also, no where does any one say anything about Indoctrination changing eyes.