My favorite version of this game is a hardened Alistair who battles Loghain and takes the throne. To me this is the finest moment for the Warden is to see his team grow and develop into the best possible group ever. Take a much of misfits and make them legends is what a Warden commander should be.
Why is Alistair so damn likeable?
Débuté par
dshoub
, mars 22 2014 07:09
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#227
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 03:03
DarthGizka
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Duncan's Shield, not Howe's.
Yep. Forgot that it has the same shape as Howe's.
Do you not control whomever is battling Loghain? My game defaults to that... it must be broken, I guess.
Yes it is broken. Controlling a character disables the AI, and during the duel you cannot switch to another character to let Alistair fight on his own.
The only way to arrange a fair duel - AI-controlled auto-levelled Alistair against AI-controlled auto-levelled Loghain - is during the brawl before the duel. Level the playing field by taking a big chunk out of Loghain's HP and by eliminating any ranged hostiles who might interfere, then watch the two duke it out.
A borked script makes Loghain fixate on a party member until they stealth or go down for the count, which means that Alistair should aggro Loghain first thing at the beginning of the brawl.
If you are concerned about the different stun durations for brawl-Loghain vs. duel-Loghain then you can compensate by lowering the difficulty.
P.S.: the question here is Alistair vs. Loghain, not theskymoves vs. Loghain. Any of us can beat Loghain using any toon, including Barkspawn if they would let us do that, or Wynne who is an almost pure healer. Auto-levelled Alistair would be more difficult than most but still doable. Which is why the unbalancing factor - human skill - must be eliminated since it cannot be added on the opposing side.
#228
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 03:09
Cobra's_back
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I suppose I'll agree. Even though he's a Goody type, both his morality and Leliana's don't rub me the wrong way. Wynne is different, because she oversteps her bounds, and acts like she's there to be an advisor, giving me platitudes and trying to make me live up to some crappy ideal she read in a children's book. Telling me how grateful she will be if I did nothing but live for others and relished in self-sacrifice. No, Wynne. I just wanted a mage with a better attitude than Morrigan. Easy job. That isn't asking much.
It saddens me that Bioware's Canon Warden is someone who believed her crap.
I totally agree. I can't stand Wynne. She is just terrible. She would have to be the worst First Enchanter ever. These crappy ideal are ones she doesn't even live by. Alistair thinks she is a mommy figure. She is far from it. She is totally okay with the Chantry saying mages can't marry and it is okay for the Chantry to take their children away. That makes me want to vomit. I absolutely hate the idea of a prison and the removal of family. The Chantry is actually creating a breeding ground for abominations.
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#229
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 03:13
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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My mage used Paralysis, Cone of Cold, Grease (he makes the loudest CLUNK! when he falls down), Glyph of Repulsion. And maybe some Stinging Swarm? It's been a while... She was a cr@p fighter (intentionally so) and a great healer.
I actually added Arcane Warrior to this guy for his third spec. Apparently his Magic stat adds to both his attack and his damage, but I don't really care about all that since I really mostly added it so that my mage could wear armor.
#230
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 03:43
Cobra's_back
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I understand completely. Nothing wrong with making peace with Orlais. It's just complicated for all involved, that's all.
One thing that sums up Loghain for me is if he and Dog are in your group, and the rambling story he tells Dog. Man, that is sad. Simple, but sad. It symbolizes a lot with why he's so paranoid. When it comes down to it, he's a victim. Not just a warmonger.
He is a victim and he turned into the thing he feared. His right hand man was called the butcher of Denerim. His democracy is only for people who think like him. He even allowed slavery. To me he was two steps back not forward and became his worst enemy. Ferelden needs a leader who cares for all its citizens.
#231
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 03:46
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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He is a victim and he turned into the thing he feared. His right hand man was called the butcher of Denerim. His democracy is only for people who think like him. He even allowed slavery. To me he was two steps back not forward and became his worst enemy. Ferelden needs a leader who cares for all its citizens.
I'll concede most of your points, but where is the word "democracy" ever used in this game?
Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 27 mars 2014 - 05:13 .
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#232
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 04:05
Cobra's_back
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I'll concede most of your points, but where is the phrase "democracy" ever used in this game?
True. That is the wrong word to use.
#233
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 04:11
theskymoves
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Yep. Forgot that it has the same shape as Howe's.
Yes it is broken. Controlling a character disables the AI, and during the duel you cannot switch to another character to let Alistair fight on his own.
The only way to arrange a fair duel - AI-controlled auto-levelled Alistair against AI-controlled auto-levelled Loghain - is during the brawl before the duel. Level the playing field by taking a big chunk out of Loghain's HP and by eliminating any ranged hostiles who might interfere, then watch the two duke it out.
A borked script makes Loghain fixate on a party member until they stealth or go down for the count, which means that Alistair should aggro Loghain first thing at the beginning of the brawl.
If you are concerned about the different stun durations for brawl-Loghain vs. duel-Loghain then you can compensate by lowering the difficulty.
P.S.: the question here is Alistair vs. Loghain, not theskymoves vs. Loghain. Any of us can beat Loghain using any toon, including Barkspawn if they would let us do that, or Wynne who is an almost pure healer. Auto-levelled Alistair would be more difficult than most but still doable. Which is why the unbalancing factor - human skill - must be eliminated since it cannot be added on the opposing side.
That's not "broken". That's you not liking the way the devs made the game. *walks away and never looks back*
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#234
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 05:09
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All I know is that a Duelist rogue can make mincemeat out of Loghain real quick. A specialization that lives up to it's name.
*Mage casts Paralysis then Blizzard,Tempest and Inferno simultaneously*
...
*Mage points and laughs at Loghain continuously falling on his ass as he's frozen,burned and electrocuted to death*
Ah fun times. 
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#235
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 06:50
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If Orlais ever went to war, who do you think would be used as canon fodder in the front lines? No, if the only way for the Orlesians to leave Ferelden alone is by anexating them, then they can shove it. I have no sympathy for an country that thinks that the their neighbors need to be made part of them in order to be tolerated.
If that is what Orlais is actually thinking or planning then agreed. I never let loghain live and don't really delve into the specific of Orlais because it's not in my game. I don't assume they would be tyrants treating us as cannon fodder. I actually don't think of them at all because I'm focused on the blight and don't really care beyond that. My duty is to the blight. Getting caught up in these political messes is an annoyance I must tolerate but frankly, I'm going to die in 30 years if I don't die in a deadspawn battle so I can't say I care that much about any of it. As a mage, I care even less. They could battle it out all they want. My life was stuck in the circle beyond the reach of kings and queen and armies. So what is it to me? Nothing. Because I am a grey warden and my only concern is stopping the blight. Again, this is my problem with the game. I have to concern myself with all this political crap that I do not care about AT ALL. Politiians, Banns, kings, queens, they all are useless... we see how their interests are all for themselves. They side with you if something personal has been done to them or their family. Sure, they might be doing it for the right reason, but in some cases you see it is far more about revenge and rage. These are the people I am to care about? I'd just assume move to Orlais and be done with ferelden forever.
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#236
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 07:48
DarthGizka
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That's not "broken". That's you not liking the way the devs made the game. *walks away and never looks back*
When Alistair goes down in the duel the game says "Your journey ends here" or something like that, even though the Warden and the rest of the party are still standing (and unlike Alistair, they know how to fight). That's broken.
If you pick Alistair for the duel then you have to do all the fighting for him but once you brought Loghain down he suddenly remembers how to hold a sword, draws a two-hander out of thin air and proceeds to murder Loghain without the Warden being able to intervene. That's broken.
The game even shows the Warden nodding assent which none of my Wardens would ever do. That's broken as well.
The point of my post was that if Alistair wants to kill Loghain so badly then he should do his own bloody fighting or die trying.
#237
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 07:53
Xilizhra
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When Alistair goes down in the duel the game says "Your journey ends here" or something like that, even though the Warden and the rest of the party are still standing (and unlike Alistair, they know how to fight). That's broken.
If you pick Alistair for the duel then you have to do all the fighting for him but once you brought Loghain down he suddenly remembers how to hold a sword, draws a two-hander out of thin air and proceeds to murder Loghain without the Warden being able to intervene. That's broken.
The game even shows the Warden nodding assent which none of my Wardens would ever do. That's broken as well.
The point of my post was that if Alistair wants to kill Loghain so badly then he should do his own bloody fighting or die trying.
So... wait. Are you somehow claiming that Alistair is a real person whose body we're usurping in the duel?
#238
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 08:04
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When Alistair goes down in the duel the game says "Your journey ends here" or something like that, even though the Warden and the rest of the party are still standing (and unlike Alistair, they know how to fight). That's broken.
If you pick Alistair for the duel then you have to do all the fighting for him but once you brought Loghain down he suddenly remembers how to hold a sword, draws a two-hander out of thin air and proceeds to murder Loghain without the Warden being able to intervene. That's broken.
The game even shows the Warden nodding assent which none of my Wardens would ever do. That's broken as well.
The point of my post was that if Alistair wants to kill Loghain so badly then he should do his own bloody fighting or die trying.
In all fairness, you have had the power to control all of your party members every time there has been a battle. This is now a battle. If you are a warrior, you go into the fade as someone else and control them.
Also, if you did not control Alistair for this fight, then it becomes yet another situation where the writers determine the outcome and it is forced upon us. If Alistair died people would be pissed and rightfully so. If Alistair lives people would be pissed. Each option has a group behind it that wants one of those outcomes. There is no way to satisfy all the people in the case of taking away the power to fight as alistair (which you have had throughout the entire game) in favor of a cutscene with a questionable outcome.
But I do agree with highly with you point on Alistair killing Loghain (with the magical two hander he doesn't have). That is another point where things are hinky in this game, but given how Alistair feels, it's not all that shocking that he would do that. However, his automatic taking of the throne once he does is a bit weird. I'm not sure if he will do this if he is not hardened though but I guess it fits with hardened Alistair. I suppose it has to happen because if not Anora would probably kill him after that. So in this case you are right for the reasons I have said above. Magical cutscenes where things change and you feel screwed out of the control you have always had.
#239
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 08:09
Jedi Master of Orion
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I'm pretty sure I once got Anora to be Queen, even though Alistair dueled Loghain.
#240
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 08:12
DarthGizka
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You can still pick either one for the job but she will refuse to marry the murderer of her father.
#241
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 08:15
Cobra's_back
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The thing is, the Orlesians would never be content with peace. Once Ferelden is anexated to Orlais, it would not be Ferelden any more, it would be the newest Orlesian state, Ferelden culture would be completely lost in order to be replaced by the Orlesian one. And they would still be regarded as second class citizens. A certain mark of the orlesian leadership is their sheer arrogance and sense of superiority.
There is this dialogue between Loghain and Wynne that gives some insight of what we could expect of an union of the countries:
Wynne: And what of peace? Would it not bring us that, at least?
Loghain: Peace? I would have thought your age might have granted more wisdom, madam. Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons.If Orlais ever went to war, who do you think would be used as canon fodder in the front lines? No, if the only way for the Orlesians to leave Ferelden alone is by anexating them, then they can shove it. I have no sympathy for an country that thinks that the their neighbors need to be made part of them in order to be tolerated.
I wouldn't fear Orlais. We kicked their butts once we can do it again. It doesn't mean Calian or anyone else would have let them repeat what they did before. The Empress would also be clueless not to have learned from earlier mistakes if she wanted her new marriage to last. I didn't think Cailan was the brightest but he was not cruel. He did care about his country. The Couslands and Arl Eamon were loved by their people. She would have to replace them and put in puppets. I don't see this happening.
We act on the information provided in the game. I never let Loghain live. He isn't the answer to this problem or the blight. His death should remind anyone else trying to do the same thing that Ferelden will not stand for it. If he had firm proof he should have presented the information at the landsmeet. This proof should include that the Empress was planning on killing Cailan so she could put in her own puppet. If she was planning on marrying Cailan then that doesn't automatically mean the past mistakes would occur. Last I check the game talks about spying. He could have hired them to do the work. Anything short of proof is paranoia.
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#242
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 08:34
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I wouldn't fear Orlais. We kicked their butts once we can do it again. It doesn't mean Calian or anyone else would have let them repeat what they did before. The Empress would also be clueless not to have learned from earlier mistakes if she wanted her new marriage to last. I didn't think Cailan was the brightest but he was not cruel. He did care about his country. The Couslands and Arl Eamon were loved by their people. She would have to replace them and put in puppets. I don't see this happening.
We act on the information provided in the game. I never let Loghain live. He isn't the answer to this problem or the blight. His death should remind anyone else trying to do the same thing that Ferelden will not stand for it. If he had firm proof he should have presented the information at the landsmeet. This proof should include that the Empress was planning on killing Cailan so she could put in her own puppet. If she was planning on marrying Cailan then that doesn't automatically mean the past mistakes would occur. Last I check the game talks about spying. He could have hired them to do the work. Anything short of proof is paranoia.
This game has a lot of grey areas and areas where information is presented in different places (in game and not in game or in the codex rather than in the game) that leads you all over the place. I play the game and expect all the information to be part of the game. Their codex is a pain in the ass and particularly annoying is how you get the big bloody looking codex notification in the center of your damn screen while in the middle of game play if you happen to click on something. I've had that screw up a battle for me because I could not see what was happening while that graphic appeared. Having to read all the codex entries to get more clarification on topics doesn't feel like playing the game itself. And there are so many codex enteries that it's frustrating to do this. But if the codex changes your understanding of something, then it should be presented in game. BW relies on codex enteries far more than it should. Books as well. Everything should be presented as part of the game. If you get a codex that changes something the character at the moment of that codex or shortly after should say something regarding it. It should be addressed so I don't have to dig through a convoluted system with things numbered rather than named that is a crap design if ever I saw a crappy design. I've tired to follow codexs and very quickly it gets messy and becomes a nuisance. It's a cheap way out with a bit of sneaky added to it. Put it all in the game and put a little money in a ten second voice over so I know that this was an important codex that I should go read (since they have them for every damn thing) and give me a way to click on it directly from the screen so it takes me to this specific codex much like how in skyrim you open books and read what is there. Yes, not all books or letter in skyrim were important, but you had it right there in your hand and could easily read it rather than having to dig through the codex to get to it.
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#243
Posté 27 mars 2014 - 11:05
Jaison1986
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I wouldn't fear Orlais. We kicked their butts once we can do it again. It doesn't mean Calian or anyone else would have let them repeat what they did before. The Empress would also be clueless not to have learned from earlier mistakes if she wanted her new marriage to last. I didn't think Cailan was the brightest but he was not cruel. He did care about his country. The Couslands and Arl Eamon were loved by their people. She would have to replace them and put in puppets. I don't see this happening.
We act on the information provided in the game. I never let Loghain live. He isn't the answer to this problem or the blight. His death should remind anyone else trying to do the same thing that Ferelden will not stand for it. If he had firm proof he should have presented the information at the landsmeet. This proof should include that the Empress was planning on killing Cailan so she could put in her own puppet. If she was planning on marrying Cailan then that doesn't automatically mean the past mistakes would occur. Last I check the game talks about spying. He could have hired them to do the work. Anything short of proof is paranoia.
You gotta remember what Alistair says in DA2: "We just survived an blight, so we are not exactly at our strongest" Ferelden can't afford an war with Orlais right now. And while Celene seems to be an progressive leader, we haven't seen many other leaders in Orlais that share such pacifist views, and Loghain sure as hell is not the only one that is still bitter over the civil war. Even now you can see that. In Leliana song, Justina says some truthful things:
Leliana: But Ferelden and Orlais are at peace now.
Justina: It would be much more accurate to say that they are no longer at war.
There is still a lot of tension between Orlais and Ferelden.
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#244
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 mars 2014 - 12:19
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You gotta remember what Alistair says in DA2: "We just survived an blight, so we are not exactly at our strongest" Ferelden can't afford an war with Orlais right now. And while Celene seems to be an progressive leader, we haven't seen many other leaders in Orlais that share such pacifist views, and Loghain sure as hell is not the only one that is still bitter over the civil war. Even now you can see that. In Leliana song, Justina says some truthful things:
Leliana: But Ferelden and Orlais are at peace now.
Justina: It would be much more accurate to say that they are no longer at war.
There is still a lot of tension between Orlais and Ferelden.
From all the fuss about Orlais, it was clear they were going to be a problem and there was nothing we really could do about it. Guess the best we can do is just go with the flow and accept it since writers do what they want and we are powerless to change it.
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#245
Posté 28 mars 2014 - 01:31
Cobra's_back
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You gotta remember what Alistair says in DA2: "We just survived an blight, so we are not exactly at our strongest" Ferelden can't afford an war with Orlais right now. And while Celene seems to be an progressive leader, we haven't seen many other leaders in Orlais that share such pacifist views, and Loghain sure as hell is not the only one that is still bitter over the civil war. Even now you can see that. In Leliana song, Justina says some truthful things:
Leliana: But Ferelden and Orlais are at peace now.
Justina: It would be much more accurate to say that they are no longer at war.
There is still a lot of tension between Orlais and Ferelden.
I understand what you are saying. I just don't see Loghain as the right leader for the job. If i let him live, then the message to everyone in Ferelden is that a regent should be allowed to do what Loghain did. That is not what I want them to think. If you give him a pass then it makes it easier for a puppet government to do the same. In the future, Ferelden is going to need every able body to support a war against an invasion. They may not care if you don’t punish the people that abused them.
#246
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 mars 2014 - 01:43
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I understand what you are saying. I just don't see Loghain as the right leader for the job. If i let him live, then the message to everyone in Ferelden is that a regent should be allowed to do what Loghain did. That is not what I want them to think. If you give him a pass then it makes it easier for a puppet government to do the same. In the future, Ferelden is going to need every able body to support a war against an invasion. They may not care if you don’t punish the people that abused them.
I think selling citizens into slavery and sending assassins after the grey wardens justifies punishment. There is no imprisonment option that I noticed which actually, imprisoning a respected general for selling citizens into slavery and sending assassins after the grey wardens would have been a great option as it leaves him disgraced and as a living example of that nobody is above justice, even respected generals that were once considered heroes.
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#247
Posté 28 mars 2014 - 02:18
Jaison1986
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I understand what you are saying. I just don't see Loghain as the right leader for the job. If i let him live, then the message to everyone in Ferelden is that a regent should be allowed to do what Loghain did. That is not what I want them to think. If you give him a pass then it makes it easier for a puppet government to do the same. In the future, Ferelden is going to need every able body to support a war against an invasion. They may not care if you don’t punish the people that abused them.
Even if Loghain lives, there is nothing that he could do anyway. He is an warden stationed in Orlais of all places. And the order would forbid him from getting tangled into political matters. And then again, the common people don't know what Loghain would have to endure while being an warden. While recruiting him would seem an boon to the every day folk, people that know what is like being an warden would think that death would have been an kinder fate for him.
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#248
Posté 28 mars 2014 - 03:45
Mike3207
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Even if Loghain lives, there is nothing that he could do anyway. He is an warden stationed in Orlais of all places. And the order would forbid him from getting tangled into political matters. And then again, the common people don't know what Loghain would have to endure while being an warden. While recruiting him would seem an boon to the every day folk, people that know what is like being an warden would think that death would have been an kinder fate for him.
If Loghain thinks Ferelden is at risk-like from a Orlesian invasion-he will return. He's got a history of always doing what he thought was necessary to defend Ferelden.
I'm also not sure if he is still serving as a Warden in Orlais. If Orlais is going to threaten a invasion, the best way to forestall it is for Alistair or Anora to give Loghain command of the army again. After a certain discussion of staying out of politics, however.
#249
Posté 28 mars 2014 - 04:15
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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If Loghain thinks Ferelden is at risk-like from a Orlesian invasion-he will return. He's got a history of always doing what he thought was necessary to defend Ferelden.
I'm also not sure if he is still serving as a Warden in Orlais. If Orlais is going to threaten a invasion, the best way to forestall it is for Alistair or Anora to give Loghain command of the army again. After a certain discussion of staying out of politics, however.
Though Alistair would never trust him with an army again, and arguably for good reasons I suppose. Also, if he deserts the Wardens he will probably be hunted. (If not by them than by the mastermind of the invasion, who probably damn well knows all of this.)
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#250
Posté 28 mars 2014 - 04:16
Cobra's_back
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Even if Loghain lives, there is nothing that he could do anyway. He is an warden stationed in Orlais of all places. And the order would forbid him from getting tangled into political matters. And then again, the common people don't know what Loghain would have to endure while being an warden. While recruiting him would seem an boon to the every day folk, people that know what is like being an warden would think that death would have been an kinder fate for him.
I get what you are saying. I'm not interested in being kind to him. Laws are made to serve as an example that no one should be above the law including the Warden. To be perfectly honest I may even chat with the guy. Nothing personal but someone need to enforce the laws so that the victims heal. These victims and the people around them will support you in the future when you need them.
