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Why is Alistair so damn likeable?

Débuté par dshoub , mars 22 2014 07:09

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321 réponses à ce sujet

#251
Mike3207
Posté 28 mars 2014 - 05:49

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Though Alistair would never trust him with an army again, and arguably for good reasons I suppose. Also, if he deserts the Wardens he will probably be hunted. (If not by them than by the mastermind of the invasion, who probably damn well knows all of this.)

Solo Alistair might not, but I'd think Anora could talk him into thinking it was best for Ferelden. After all, would Alistair rather Ferelden be destroyed by a invasion then give Loghain command again? I'd think he'd do what is best for Ferlelden, although i admit he doesn't have a good track record there in matters dealing with Loghain.

 

BTW-is Loghain still in Orlais? I'd have thought he'd been recalled back to Ferelden by now.


#252
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Posté 28 mars 2014 - 08:04

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Though Alistair would never trust him with an army again, and arguably for good reasons I suppose. Also, if he deserts the Wardens he will probably be hunted. (If not by them than by the mastermind of the invasion, who probably damn well knows all of this.)

 

Alistair likely still wants him dead.


#253
Shadow Fox
Posté 28 mars 2014 - 09:19

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Solo Alistair might not, but I'd think Anora could talk him into thinking it was best for Ferelden. After all, would Alistair rather Ferelden be destroyed by a invasion then give Loghain command again? I'd think he'd do what is best for Ferlelden, although i admit he doesn't have a good track record there in matters dealing with Loghain.

 

BTW-is Loghain still in Orlais? I'd have thought he'd been recalled back to Ferelden by now.

Is Loghain the ONLY good general in Ferelden though?


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#254
Cobra's_back
Posté 28 mars 2014 - 09:30

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Is Loghain the ONLY good general in Ferelden though?

 

I'm not sold on his style at all. Nor do I think he is the only man for the job.


#255
DarthGizka
Posté 28 mars 2014 - 09:37

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Whom do you have in mind as an alternative? Where could they have acquired experience and earned their spurs?


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#256
Shadow Fox
Posté 28 mars 2014 - 09:50

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Whom do you have in mind as an alternative? Where could they have acquired experience and earned their spurs?

Bann Teagun,Arl Wulf...Oghren? :P


#257
Mike3207
Posté 28 mars 2014 - 09:52

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Is Loghain the ONLY good general in Ferelden though?

That's really a good question, and the answer might be-possibly yes. The only other candidate I can think of offhand who might be a suitable alternative would be Cauthrien, and her loyalty to Loghain is such that she dies a lot in the aftermath, surviving only if you succeed with a hard persuasion/Intimidate. She asks you to spare Loghain, and if you deny her plea will she continue in the army?

 

We know from DA2 that a lot of army officers went to Kirkwall to escape from-well let's call it the Loghain purge. A lot of officers in origins had to face the choice of toeing the Loghain line, or face the choice of desertion, like Elric Maraigne. I'd imagine the army wasn't in the best shape, and even the Warden would have been hard pressed to rebuild the army. I guess we really won't know the answer to this question to DAI.

 

EDIT-Oghren might be a possibility, if he's still alive, and if he's still in Ferelden. I think he might end up a Orzammar general if your Warden does the US.


#258
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Posté 28 mars 2014 - 11:00

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Whom do you have in mind as an alternative? Where could they have acquired experience and earned their spurs?

 

But Darth, we are sort of working in a vacuum here. We don't really get any other generals presented to us or any other people that could be of value. I suppose if you don't kill Ser Cautherine, she could rise up and become a great leader. Surely if you can persuade her. If you can persuade her, she admits she is deeply troubled by his actions and who he has become. This to me is the mark of a future great leader and while I've killed her in some past games, I think I will spare her this time because I find that to make her worthy of surviving. Loyalty is a good thing, but she is caught in the middle here. Her duty causes her to feel bound to him but she is not without doubts. Those doubts are what make her a great asset but you have to give her cause to put some trust in you as she has been tainted by loghain.

 

But again, we are very insulated. We don't see anyone but Loghain and other NPCs that are of relevance. To assume that there is nobody that could rise up and show themselves as great leaders... well we became a great leader. Alistair has potential to become a great or good king. Could there not be others out there that have this potential too?


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#259
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Posté 28 mars 2014 - 11:06

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That's really a good question, and the answer might be-possibly yes. The only other candidate I can think of offhand who might be a suitable alternative would be Cauthrien, and her loyalty to Loghain is such that she dies a lot in the aftermath, surviving only if you succeed with a hard persuasion/Intimidate. She asks you to spare Loghain, and if you deny her plea will she continue in the army?

 

We know from DA2 that a lot of army officers went to Kirkwall to escape from-well let's call it the Loghain purge. A lot of officers in origins had to face the choice of toeing the Loghain line, or face the choice of desertion, like Elric Maraigne. I'd imagine the army wasn't in the best shape, and even the Warden would have been hard pressed to rebuild the army. I guess we really won't know the answer to this question to DAI.

 

EDIT-Oghren might be a possibility, if he's still alive, and if he's still in Ferelden. I think he might end up a Orzammar general if your Warden does the US.

 

If you don't spare him, well she knew going in that you might not. I hadn't really thought what she might do if you don't spare him. I won't because the only other option is to lose Alistair and I'll be damned if I'm going to be yet one more person who screws him over after he stood by my side... especially given that loghain tried to have us killed and sullied the grey wardens and sold citizens into slavery. If I could shove him in a dungeon somewhere and alistair not freak out over it, then I'd do that. But the writers write him to be unreasonable at this point, which it seems to me that I should be capable of persuading him with high persuasion. I should have the option to persuade him with something like 'killing him only makes us like him' or something along those lines which should bring some reason back for him. But it's a game manipulation and we are stuck, limited by writers choosing to make him irrational on this point.


#260
Mike3207
Posté 29 mars 2014 - 12:26

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If you don't spare him, well she knew going in that you might not. I hadn't really thought what she might do if you don't spare him. I won't because the only other option is to lose Alistair and I'll be damned if I'm going to be yet one more person who screws him over after he stood by my side... especially given that loghain tried to have us killed and sullied the grey wardens and sold citizens into slavery. If I could shove him in a dungeon somewhere and alistair not freak out over it, then I'd do that. But the writers write him to be unreasonable at this point, which it seems to me that I should be capable of persuading him with high persuasion. I should have the option to persuade him with something like 'killing him only makes us like him' or something along those lines which should bring some reason back for him. But it's a game manipulation and we are stuck, limited by writers choosing to make him irrational on this point.

Yes, it's one of those thorny problems in which there is not a lot of good solutions. i come around on the point that Loghain had a bad year and did some bad things, but he's really Ferelden's finest military officer. If you do make the decision to go with Alistair, than i think it's best if you do make the decision to spare Cauthrien. She's learned a lot from Loghain and one day she might even be a better general than him.If both of them are gone though, it's really going to give someone a major headache when the Orlesian invasion comes around.


#261
Cobra's_back
Posté 29 mars 2014 - 01:44

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Whom do you have in mind as an alternative? Where could they have acquired experience and earned their spurs?

 

The Hero of Ferelden warden or someone new like the warden. The young Cousland pup was expected to take over Highever. He was actually much better than his brother and his parents knew it.

 

Loghain failed to understand his enemy in Ostagar.  The book had him using Guerrilla warfare. The next invasion will require military style fighting. Not impress with what he did in Ostagar. He turned away the wardens and soldiers sent to help in the battle of Ostagar. Most Generals have advisers and scouts that bring them enough information to come up with a plan. 

 

I would say because you have such limited resources you need a General that can think things out carefully not to waste resources and can convince other to support the cause. Is there anyone else who hates the Orlesians? I bet there are. Can you make it impossible for them to get in? Can the new General cut off their supply route. Try and get new blood trained and hire spies. It looked as if Loghain was completely blindsided in Ostagar. 


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#262
Riverdaleswhiteflash
Posté 29 mars 2014 - 01:57

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Alistair likely still wants him dead.

I would posit that that's a very good reason not to give him control of an army.


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#263
Xetykins
Posté 29 mars 2014 - 10:17

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I don't think I would go this far. Even tough I don't like the wardens one bit, it doesn't change the fact they are an necessary evil, without them, Thedas would be screwed.
 
@starlitegirlx, actually, if you let Nathaniel go, you will find him in an random encounter were he willing asks you to join.


Ohh I did not know this! I have to try that path. As a human noble I could not bring myself to execute the son for the crimes of the father and I thought conscripting him was the only way to go.

Thanks for this!

And oh yes Alistair is one of a kind and absolutely adorable (to stay on topic)

#264
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Posté 29 mars 2014 - 10:49

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Ohh I did not know this! I have to try that path. As a human noble I could not bring myself to execute the son for the crimes of the father and I thought conscripting him was the only way to go.

Thanks for this!

And oh yes Alistair is one of a kind and absolutely adorable (to stay on topic)

 

I let him go recently and didn't follow through to the end with that run because even though he does return and it is quite awesome, you miss a bunch of great chances to up his approval right off the bat, unless you just were to travel around before doing anything like going into the basement (which letting the prisoners go gives you some approval and having him in Armarantine gets you approval for various things you do). So I would recommend if you do this (which I may do in my next run out of curiosity) not going straight to the basement and seeing if you can leave the keep and catch him on the road before doing things where he gives approval. Otherwise, I found it was hard to get him past 60 ish and I think he has to be higher to get the best ending but I'm not sure on that.

 

It's a random encounter. I think mine was on the way to Amaranthine but the second time....

 

Okay I just tested this since it's quick enough to do. If you want to make sure you get as many points from him for approval as possible you can head to the turnoble estate and do that one quickly then head to armaranthine and get details on the dwarven ruins and talk to the merchant from the guild. Then back to the estate I met up with him but I did make a previous trip there to hit the merchants. So it took two trips and to amaranthine for him to catch me on the way back to the keep. The only thing I did at the keep was speak to a few people to start things that needed to be done at the keep and then went inside and got that annoying meeting with the nobles done. I left the rest for after I picked him up so I wouldn't miss approval options. He joined my party as soon as I agreed. However, be warned that if you have oghren with you it's -6 disapproval and with his buggy approval that might be an issue. So maybe just travel with anders since he only gives you -3 and it's easy to get his back. Oghren is bugged though so that might be worth noting since you don't really need him unless you go to the estate but that wasn't where I got nathaniel. Both times it was between the keep and amaranthine (and I think on the way back to the keep). Then you just have to take him to the keep for the joining.


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#265
sylvanaerie
Posté 29 mars 2014 - 05:16

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I'd do the whole 'turn him away to recruit later', but I lack the willpower.  Nate is my favorite Awakenings companion (only the awesomeness that is Sigrun comes close for me), so I can't turn him away.  I have to snag him as soon as we meet.  I choose as many convo options as I can to keep his dialogue going and take him EVERYwhere with me.  


#266
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Posté 29 mars 2014 - 08:13

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I'd do the whole 'turn him away to recruit later', but I lack the willpower.  Nate is my favorite Awakenings companion (only the awesomeness that is Sigrun comes close for me), so I can't turn him away.  I have to snag him as soon as we meet.  I choose as many convo options as I can to keep his dialogue going and take him EVERYwhere with me.  

 

Yeah, I did it just to see if I could get around those approval points, but I love him too much. I mean, if he was a romancable character, I'd be all over this. Alistair is sweet but Nate, he's got a whole different sense of honor to him. He's rational.... hell you killed his father... murdered him by his account AND yet you can easily turn him into THE MOST honorable of all grey warden in my book. More so than Alisatair who has the undercurrent that he really doesn't like being a grey warden and it was more about getting away from the chantry and even that duncan gave him what he wanted. Nate accepts it and there are no complaints. He's true to it. He's not a wise ass. He's very mature. He's polite. He's charming. He's tough enough to accept that his father was a bastard murderer and he'll accept others see him that way and make his own path to attempt to restore their name. Alistair whines about having royal blood all the time but Nathaniel manages to get over the whole thing with his father farily soon given the right circumstances (talking to his sister, getting the bow being two key ones). If only they made him romanceable, even with it being a short game that feels like it ends too soon, DLC that it is, I think they could have done it if they wanted to bother. We wouldn't have gotten as much conversation as we did with Alistair or anyone at the camp, but it would have been something.


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#267
sylvanaerie
Posté 30 mars 2014 - 02:21

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I hear that.  I think a Cousland/Nathaniel pairing would have been full of interesting nuances had Bioware felt the need to give us more than just a friendship.  As it is, my favorite character to run through Awakenings is a Cousland, for this very reason.  


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#268
Cobra's_back
Posté 31 mars 2014 - 09:02

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I hear that.  I think a Cousland/Nathaniel pairing would have been full of interesting nuances had Bioware felt the need to give us more than just a friendship.  As it is, my favorite character to run through Awakenings is a Cousland, for this very reason.  

 

Four stars to this. Nathaniel is an excellent character. I absolutely love this guy.


#269
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Posté 31 mars 2014 - 11:26

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Awakening feels pretty spot on for a Cousland. At least when it comes to managing the Keep and Amarathanine. And meeting Howe. It seems right up the alley for Human Nobles.

 

I can never get over why most Origins have an affinity for the Fade though. The only ones that make sense to me is Dalish and Mage. Something strange about the Dalish connection to the Eluvian and darkspawn early on that makes it believable to me. Dwarves and Human Noble, not so much.


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#270
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 01 avril 2014 - 01:01

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Awakening feels pretty spot on for a Cousland. At least when it comes to managing the Keep and Amarathanine. And meeting Howe. It seems right up the alley for Human Nobles.

 

I can never get over why most Origins have an affinity for the Fade though. The only ones that make sense to me is Dalish and Mage. Something strange about the Dalish connection to the Eluvian and darkspawn early on that makes it believable to me. Dwarves and Human Noble, not so much.

 

Yes, but then again, even mages get screwed in the fade. So perhaps it's more about the person that their origin or if they are mages or not.

 

Awakening is very suited to a Cousland that has married into the royal line. Some of it makes less sense as just a warden, but I kind of put that part aside. And of course, even as the queen, it is a bit strange to be out there on my own fighting this blight and saving this keep. It seems sort of like something that once you are queen, you would have arrived with more than just Mhairi. I get that Alistair or Anora wouldn't be able to help you and in Alistair's case those close to him might prefer that he didn't given the dangers it would pose to him now that he is the king. But as a queen, I find it a bit out of character that she is in the middle of this mess unless it is being done specifically to rebuilt the keep so that she can move on from this aspect and be the queen. But if that is the case, it really feels kind of messed up. The person you arrive with doesn't even survive the joining. So they are content to let the queen head off to a keep to help rebuild it with one person who is not even officially a warden yet? Feels a bit absurd and like the story might have looked smarter if you started with a small force, maybe three or four soldiers (queen or not) that perhaps got killed during the battle and maybe Mhaira met you there in the middle of the mess rather than she is your lone escort.


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#271
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Posté 01 avril 2014 - 01:11

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Denerim isn't too far from Amaranthine though. It would've been better to have a larger escort, but it isn't too out of place. Besides that, most of the trip could have been on sea anyways.


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#272
KaiserShep
Posté 01 avril 2014 - 01:13

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I never even considered the possibility of being the king or queen and doing this. It does seem weird. I kind of wish that the option existed for the Orlesian warden to take the reigns with an import from the Origins main game.


#273
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Posté 01 avril 2014 - 01:16

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Denerim isn't too far from Amaranthine though. It would've been better to have a larger escort, but it isn't too out of place. Besides that, most of the trip could have been on sea anyways.

 

Good points. I found it odd that here I am alone as the queen and alistair rolls up with a small army and he's not even going to be fighting anything. Actually, it's pretty bad. If you are to rebuild Amarantine, you would think they would have given you some bodies kind of like when you arrive at the tower you get two more to your team in ostagar. Not that I would expect more to my team, but I think a cut scene with you and say three other soldiers would have been fitting. They get killed and you are the Hero of Ferelden so you survive then Mhiari meets you to explain it. No matter what your origin, class, race or if you are queen, king or not, given you saved Ferelden from a blight, it might be considerate to have you not travel with one fledgling soldier who is kind of freaking out from minute one.


#274
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Posté 01 avril 2014 - 01:18

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I never even considered the possibility of being the king or queen and doing this. It does seem weird. I kind of wish that the option existed for the Orlesian warden to take the reigns with an import from the Origins main game.

 

I've never played as an Orlesian. That's the new character for the game if you don't import, right? I prefer to import mine because there is so much backstory to my character that building on it a bit more is fun.


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#275
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Posté 01 avril 2014 - 01:20

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Good points. I found it odd that here I am alone as the queen and alistair rolls up with a small army and he's not even going to be fighting anything. Actually, it's pretty bad. If you are to rebuild Amarantine, you would think they would have given you some bodies kind of like when you arrive at the tower you get two more to your team in ostagar. Not that I would expect more to my team, but I think a cut scene with you and say three other soldiers would have been fitting. They get killed and you are the Hero of Ferelden so you survive then Mhiari meets you to explain it. No matter what your origin, class, race or if you are queen, king or not, given you saved Ferelden from a blight, it might be considerate to have you not travel with one fledgling soldier who is kind of freaking out from minute one.

 

Perhaps there's a bit of male bias in the presentation here. It makes more sense with Anora, who's just a civilian.


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