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[Steelcan]

>Not being King Consort

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Especially since she'll turn against you if you dare admit her father should be executed for his crimes and no she can't convince you otherwise.

 

Well, if people are content to give Alistair a free-pass to turn on the Warden, why knock Anora for turning on the Warden for her father's sake?

 

If it's a matter of bringing big bad Loghain to justice, then why was Duncan allowed to live in the first place -- does the victim of Duncan's murder not also deserve to be avenged, or does that not matter because we don't care? Never mind the fact that Duncan was a combatant in war, ordered to fight in the battle by the king, and therefore his death isn't a crime to begin with.

 

I think Isabela said it best when she calls out Anders on his "Justice"-nonsense: "And then what? Where does it end? It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started."

 

 

Alistair didn't know what it's like to be loved, needed, or part of a family because, while he was growing up, everyone treated him like an inconvenience at best, an unwanted burden to pass off to someone else at worst. Duncan and the Grey Wardens were the first (sadly enough) to like him, welcome him, and accept him as one of their own.

 

I get it. He lost his friends. That sucks.

Still doesn't make him less biased in his views of how "awesome" the Grey Wardens are.

 

If anything, his experiences are expressly why he looks at them with rose-tinted glasses. Criminy cripes, his idol was once a thief and murderer.

 

 

He then appeals to Morrigan's sense of love and attachment, but probably knows she hasn't gotten close to that many people as a reclusive "witch of the wilds." Since her mother is the only person he knows she spends time with, he asks what about her?

 

Eh, sorry, but I don't buy that his defensive response to Morrigan was that well thought out  ... especially for a guy who's in a state of grief and thus probably not thinking straight. Conscious or not, though, he saw nothing wrong in scale with comparing his loss to the hypothetical loss of a parent.

 

And yes, I do find that questionable (for want of a better word) for him to think his relationship with Duncan is anywhere near "family" level. That he thinks it is just goes to show that he's out-of-touch with reality (and thus his judgment is suspect). It's not comparable, because Duncan's support for him has strings attached -- Alistair has to be a Grey Warden. Take that away, you think Duncan would even bother? The answer is "no," and that's what Alistair doesn't get. Your parents are the only people in the world that truly give a s*** about you, for no reason other than you being their child (unless they're broken individuals). Take them away, and you've got no one looking out for you.

 

Not without some strings attached, anyway.

[Mike3207]

No she just risks dooming the country to save her criminal father by betraying the Warden at the Landsmeet.

 

How is she better again?  

Betrayal is in the eye of the beholder. Anora fulfills any commitments you make with her. if you choose not to support her or give her father a chance at life, however remote-you really deserve what you get. She has no obligation to give you any support, especially if you won't meet her halfway.

 

Alistair leaving the landsmeet and abandoning the Wardens/Ferelden could also be construed as a betrayal. Although, i will admit, in that case it's a bit unclear in Anora exiles him or Alistair exiles himself. A bit of both, likely.

 

As for Loghain-not sure you got the memo, but there was a civil war on. Things a lot worse than what Loghain does to the Warden happen in civil wars.The winners become heroes and write the history books, the losers are shot and have their family fined for the bullets used. I'm actually surprised Loghain doesn't hire more assassins after it's clear Zevran failed. i guess it did come down to a lack of finances.

[DarthGizka]

Betrayal is in the eye of the beholder. Anora fulfills any commitments you make with her. if you choose not to support her or give her father a chance at life, however remote-you really deserve what you get. She has no obligation to give you any support, especially if you won't meet her halfway.

 

Anora does go back an her agreement with the Warden and starts lying through her teeth, but if I remember correctly that happens only if the Warden murders Loghain or lets Alistair do it. I found that a bit out of character for the ice queen but I guess even she has some minimum standards, Machiavelli be hanged. Yes, at that point the Warden deserves whatever he or she gets. However, breaking the alliance is bound to have seriously bad consequences for the country and for Anora's own cause.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Anora does go back an her agreement with the Warden and starts lying through her teeth, but if I remember correctly that happens only if the Warden murders Loghain or lets Alistair do it. I found that a bit out of character for the ice queen but I guess even she has some minimum standards, Machiavelli be hanged. Yes, at that point the Warden deserves whatever he or she gets. However, breaking the alliance is bound to have seriously bad consequences for the country and for Anora's own cause.

No, it only happens if she has warning you're going to execute Loghain (it is definitely an execution rather than a murder, though there's little distinction when it's your father) and haven't yet done it. If you surprise-execute Loghain, she keeps her agreement anyway since it's too late for her father no matter what she does. Though she still has standards higher than to marry whoever actually swung the sword. (With my King Cousland I meant to let Alistair do it and pretend I never saw it coming, hit the "duel him myself" button by mistake, and then openly allowed Alistair to kill Loghain. She still married my Cousland.)

[DarthGizka]

I looked up the terms of the duel:

 

It shall be fought according to tradition: a test of arms in single combat until one party yields. And we who are assembled will abide by the outcome.

 

I don't remember anything about the victor getting a free walk on murder, and I've been fighting the toolset for several minutes to no avail.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I looked up the terms of the duel:

 

It shall be fought according to tradition: a test of arms in single combat until one party yields. And we who are assembled will abide by the outcome.

 

I don't remember anything about the victor getting a free walk on murder, and I've been fighting the toolset for several minutes to no avail.

It's pretty heavily implied that the duel is legally considered to be a divination ritual in which the Maker tells which of the two people fighting to save Ferelden is guilty of treason. There's therefore a pretty heavy subtext of "the loser's life is pretty much over."

[Mike3207]

I looked up the terms of the duel:

 

It shall be fought according to tradition: a test of arms in single combat until one party yields. And we who are assembled will abide by the outcome.

 

I don't remember anything about the victor getting a free walk on murder, and I've been fighting the toolset for several minutes to no avail.

It's a formalized duel that's a means of resolving the civil war-something I alluded to earlier.Maybe not murder, manslaughter would be closer. The winner is supposed to accept the surrender, but since it occurs in a duel, Alistair gets some leeway in resolving things.

[DarthGizka]

No, not when I'm around.

 

Only let him have his way once so that I could drag him to the rooftop and have him stick a sword into a dead archdemon (for the 'achievement'), and then reslew Archie because I'd heard rumours that Alistair gives a surprisingly decent eulogy. He does. Then I replayed from the Landsmeet save to make an ending for my Warden instead of my glory-hunting metagaming self.

[Mike3207]

My human nobles don't give much leeway either, mostly because they want Loghain around to deal with Orlais in future. I've got 9 playthroughs though, and all of them view things differently.

 

My Surana mage is a city elf, so she wants justice for the Alienage. Loghain dead, Alistair and Anora married.

 

My Amell mage thinks Loghain tried to free the Circle. He gets some credit for that.

 

My 2 dwarves will look after Orzammar first, then deal with the humans.

 

My 2 city elves want Loghain dead.

 

My Dalish elf-not sure yet.

 

my female Cousland-not sure yet there either. maybe the royal marriage, or maybe spare Loghain. It's up in the air

 

As for my canon one-male Cousland married to Anora, he married Anora and spared Loghain. He accepted Alistair's exile, but wished there had been another way.

[Shadow Fox]

Betrayal is in the eye of the beholder. Anora fulfills any commitments you make with her. if you choose not to support her or give her father a chance at life, however remote-you really deserve what you get. She has no obligation to give you any support, especially if you won't meet her halfway.

 

Alistair leaving the landsmeet and abandoning the Wardens/Ferelden could also be construed as a betrayal. Although, i will admit, in that case it's a bit unclear in Anora exiles him or Alistair exiles himself. A bit of both, likely.

 

As for Loghain-not sure you got the memo, but there was a civil war on. Things a lot worse than what Loghain does to the Warden happen in civil wars.The winners become heroes and write the history books, the losers are shot and have their family fined for the bullets used. I'm actually surprised Loghain doesn't hire more assassins after it's clear Zevran failed. i guess it did come down to a lack of finances.

Except she is when she offers her voice in exchange for you agreeing to support her.

 

Not really considering it's you betraying him.

 

 

Well then, that actually makes Alistair a better ruler doesn't it? He's willing to execute a criminal regardless of his reputation.

[Mike3207]

Except she is when she offers her voice in exchange for you agreeing to support her.

 

Not really considering it's you betraying him.

 

 

Well then, that actually makes Alistair a better ruler doesn't it? He's willing to execute a criminal regardless of his reputation.

Alistair betrays you first. He's unwilling to accept any outcome other than Loghain's death, even after you told him you were going to support Anora. Also, any crimes Loghain may have committed are political, not criminal. It's up to the Landsmeet to resolve them, although fair to say they don't do a good job of it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Alistair betrays you first. He's unwilling to accept any outcome other than Loghain's death, even after you told him you were going to support Anora. Also, any crimes Loghain may have committed are political, not criminal. It's up to the Landsmeet to resolve them, although fair to say they don't do a good job of it.

I dunno. The slavery seems like it would probably fall under criminal law.

[Mike3207]

I dunno. The slavery seems like it would probably fall under criminal law.

It might-if the city elves were recognized as Ferelden citizens at the time of DAO. Not sure if they are.

[Shadow Fox]

Alistair betrays you first. He's unwilling to accept any outcome other than Loghain's death, even after you told him you were going to support Anora. Also, any crimes Loghain may have committed are political, not criminal. It's up to the Landsmeet to resolve them, although fair to say they don't do a good job of it.

I'd agree if you told him beforehand you were sparing Loghain and he acted fine about it then but you don't.You spring it on him then ignore and disregard him when he pretty much begs you to kill him all just so you have another soldier.

 

So no YOU betray him.

[Mike3207]

I'd agree if you told him beforehand you were sparing Loghain and he acted fine about it then but you don't.You spring it on him then ignore and disregard him when he pretty much begs you to kill him all just so you have another soldier.

 

So no YOU betray him.

You tell him that you're going to support Anora, and he's actually relieved. It has to follow that sparing her father might be a price for that support, or it would if Alistair had any political skills.Since he doesn't, it really makes it a easy decision on who to support for the throne.

[DarthGizka]

I'd agree if you told him beforehand you were sparing Loghain and he acted fine about it then but you don't.You spring it on him then ignore and disregard him when he pretty much begs you to kill him all just so you have another soldier.

 

So no YOU betray him.

 

Loghain yielded, according to the terms of the duel. The only one springing anything on anyone is Alistair by insisting that Loghain be killed on the spot.

 

And even if you appease him he acts all surprised at being made figurehead king, and whines how you could do that to him (even though that is exactly what was agreed earlier).

 

Edit: Mike was faster and so I had to add context back in.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It might-if the city elves were recognized as Ferelden citizens at the time of DAO. Not sure if they are.

They are generally accepted as second class citizens by the law, if not by the people themselves. (At least that's what the Codex states.) At any rate the Landsmeet's reaction to the slavery makes clear they're considered to have some basic legal protections, and the line "There is no slavery in Ferelden" seems to mean that the protection they're supposed to enjoy is that of members of the nation (albeit low-ranking ones) rather than a client state.

[Shadow Fox]

You tell him that you're going to support Anora, and he's actually relieved. It has to follow that sparing her father might be a price for that support, or it would if Alistair had any political skills.Since he doesn't, it really makes it a easy decision on who to support for the throne.

Except it doesn't given you can flat out tell Anora you'll kill him and she'll still promise her support to you as long as you agree to put her on the throne yet she'll double cross you despite that still not seeing how Alistair's worse then a backstabber like her.

 

Since when is omnipresence a political skill?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Except it doesn't given you can flat out tell Anora you'll kill him and she'll still promise her support to you as long as you agree to put her on the throne yet she'll double cross you despite that still not seeing how Alistair's worse then a backstabber like her.

She was trying to protect her father from having his head chopped off. Put aside questions of the law and morality, and ask herself if you can't at least understand (I'm not asking you to condone) where she's coming from.

[Ryzaki]

Well, if people are content to give Alistair a free-pass to turn on the Warden, why knock Anora for turning on the Warden for her father's sake?

 

I'm not my issue is with people complaining about one and giving a free pass to the other.

[Hellion Rex]

@OP, cause he's drop dead gorgeous, and abs of steel, and a very large "sword".

[Mike3207]

They are generally accepted as second class citizens by the law, if not by the people themselves. (At least that's what the Codex states.) At any rate the Landsmeet's reaction to the slavery makes clear they're considered to have some basic legal protections, and the line "There is no slavery in Ferelden" seems to mean that the protection they're supposed to enjoy is that of members of the nation (albeit low-ranking ones) rather than a client state.

If that's the case, wouldn't it be hard to charge Loghain with a crime for selling elves or seek financial restitution from the Mac Tir family?

 

BTW-I hope they can get full restitution, but it might have to wait until they achieve full citizenship.

 

 

@Mercury-you can talk to Alistair about your support of Anora before the Landsmeet-I think after your interview with her. No omnipresence needed.