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Why is Alistair so damn likeable?


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#76
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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If that's the case, wouldn't it be hard to charge Loghain with a crime for selling elves or seek financial restitution from the Mac Tir family?

 

BTW-I hope they can get full restitution, but it might have to wait until they achieve full citizenship.

 

You're thinking of non-citizens. A second-class citizen is still considered to be a person. Now the fact that people don't like thinking of them as citizens at all might be a barrier, but the nobles of the Landsmeet (who really do have more influence than the average human, to the point that maybe an elf should be considered a third class citizen) are clearly enraged by Loghain's act, and if you get enough support they're willing to let you take off his head for (among other things) this.



#77
Xilizhra

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Anora does not display more objectivity or maturity than Alistair. Alistair does display more morality, overall, than Anora.



#78
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Anora does not display more objectivity or maturity than Alistair. Alistair does display more morality, overall, than Anora.

As I've previously noted she is willing to let things lie if you kill her father, once it becomes clear that he's screwed anyway. She doesn't insist that she can't possibly work with the man who killed Loghain. (Though I'll note that she's unwilling to marry whoever actually swings the sword.)



#79
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If that's the case, wouldn't it be hard to charge Loghain with a crime for selling elves or seek financial restitution from the Mac Tir family?

 

BTW-I hope they can get full restitution, but it might have to wait until they achieve full citizenship.

 

 

@Mercury-you can talk to Alistair about your support of Anora before the Landsmeet-I think after your interview with her. No omnipresence needed.

All you tell him is you agreed to support Anora's bid for the throne not that you'll spare Loghain.

 

In-fact let's turn this around shouldn't Anora have the "political skills" to ignore her feelings and accept the Warden's intent to make a criminal face justice for his actions?

 

@Riverdaleswhiteflash: see Ryzaki's post
 



#80
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As I've previously noted she is willing to let things lie if you kill her father, once it becomes clear that he's screwed anyway. She doesn't insist that she can't possibly work with the man who killed Loghain. (Though I'll note that she's unwilling to marry whoever actually swings the sword.)

Only if you lie to her face about it otherwise she tries to get the Landsmeet to kill you.

 

At-least Alistair's upfront about it and doesn't wait till Fort Drakon to try to kill you.



#81
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@Riverdaleswhiteflash: see Ryzaki's post

 

Hey, I understand where Alistair's coming from too. I just think Anora's a bit better at keeping control of herself in an adverse situation.


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#82
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Agreed. I get why Alistair liked it so much; it was a welcome change-of-pace from living in the monastery where he had no friends, but calling it "an honor" for everybody else is stupid. It sucks for anyone with a comfortable and happy enough life, and the Wardens are notorious for accepting any old scum that can fight and survive the Joining. At least Loghain was once a war-hero and liberator before "going bad."

 

I also found his heartbreak over Duncan to be a bit eyebrow-raising, comparing it to someone losing their parent when Morrigan calls him on it. WTF?

 

Actually, he really doesn't like being a grey warden. It's easy to miss this part. I was rather stunned myself. But if you dig into the dialogue with him in the fade, and the first thing you say to him (when he is with fade goldanna) is the bottom choice that is something like 'you seem happy' or along those lines... you start to see the truth. And remember as a dreamer he will expose his truest feelings on things. I am trying to remember if that is where he reveals how he feels (which is basically he doesn't want to die in some ditch with corpses rotting all around him and darkspawn everywhere -not his exact words but the image I have from what he said). If you take the least confrontational path with him in dialogue it's the only way you can persuade him and will reveal his true thoughts. He doesn't come out and say he doesn't want to be a grey warden, but it's pretty much implied throughout the game and I think by him that for grey wardens, they will die in battle the way he doesn't want to... but these things are learned through different dialogues with him. Ask him about grey wardens before moving on in ostagar after you meet him. Ask him about the joining... he calls it an honor, but in reality, once you start looking beneath the veil, you see that it's basically the thing that saved him from the chantry and having to be a mage killer. It's the thing that allowed him to meet Duncan, the only person in his life until that moment that cared what he wanted. And Duncan takes pride in being a Grey warden so it would follow that Alistair would to, though in many different dialogues, he reveals bits and pieces that give a truer and fuller picture than it is an honor- which is that it is a horrible thing to have to live with knowing how he will die, living with nightmares that he's barely used to having, remembering his own joining and how a person died during it - remembering he would rather not remember it.... Basically, anything good Alistair says about the grey wardens is rationallization. Yes, he believes they serve a good purpose, but he is not as all for the wardens as you might think. He may not come out and overtly state it but all the information is there in his dialouge to support that he is not overly fond of it but it was his way out of becoming a templar mage killer.


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#83
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Only if you lie to her face about it otherwise she tries to get the Landsmeet to kill you.

 

At-least Alistair's upfront about it and doesn't wait till Fort Drakon to try to kill you.

I was speaking of their relative maturity, not their relative degrees of honesty.



#84
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I was speaking of their relative maturity, not their relative degrees of honesty.

Anora pitches a fit too if you kill Loghain it's why he tells her to hush.


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#85
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Alistair had to be with Duncan when he recruited the warden recruits, including the one who was saved from hanging. Although given his hero worship of Duncan, it was likely he would have accepted anything Duncan did.

 

All that the rest prove is simply Alistair is unfit to be King. I can't blame it all on him. Eamon should have done more to prepare him for the Landsmeet, and the Warden should have explained that sparing Loghain was a possibility. Nothing like that happens, and it's a foregone conclusion Alistair will end up a drunk or executed on most of my playthroughs.

 

Yes, it's all really crappy game mechanics rather than good story telling. Nothing gets revealed too soon so you will have to deal with it in game. For a game, there is a certain logic to it, but even so, I don't think that had some of this been revealed it would have spoiled or ruined the game. In fact, I think having some of these things revealed earlier in a logical manner rather than thrust upon you could have really made it a better game because now you know for example that one of you must die when you take the final blow. It sucks but you are playing your game knowing that. Then much later after you have accepted this Morrigan comes along with her offer. That in my opinion makes the decision much more interesting. Also, do you play your game differently knowing either you or he will die? Who are you toward him knowing that is the outcome. Do you determine you would sacrafice him or yourself? Do you act in a way that you think will cause your survival and his death? The whole thing becomes very strategic and like a chess game rather than checkers. But that's just my thoughts on the matter.

 

And regarding the death blow business that kills the warden to takes it... I find it utterly absurd that during six months of Alistair being a grey warden, nobody ever tells him this. That seems like one hell of a thing to avoid telling someone for six damn months. Seems to me it should have been revealed at least during the first month as it's kind of important to know.


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#86
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Anora pitches a fit too if you kill Loghain it's why he tells her to hush.

I think she does so a bit more maturely than Alistair does, though. And she's more willing to work with you after not getting her way than a non-hardened Alistair.



#87
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Alistair betrays you first. He's unwilling to accept any outcome other than Loghain's death, even after you told him you were going to support Anora. Also, any crimes Loghain may have committed are political, not criminal. It's up to the Landsmeet to resolve them, although fair to say they don't do a good job of it.

 

You don't think it's a betrayal to let Loghain live after all he did... sending an assassin, turning his back on the king and duncan, sending people after you, lying about the grey wardens, the whole alienage mess... I think it's a betrayal to my own character nevermind Alistair.


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#88
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One of my favorite Loghain lines is when you say "You cost me Alistair."

 

"You'll thank me for that."

 

Whether he himself means something disparaging against Alistair or not, I think the writers are giving you a wink there. Loghain is your one chance to save you and Alistair from the demand of the Wardens and the schemes of Flemeth. And all it costs is not be vengeful, for once. I think the story ultimately will punish the vengeful, one way or another. Whether by the ultimate sacrifice or some clusterf*ck that comes from the Dark Ritual eventually.


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#89
Xilizhra

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One of my favorite Loghain lines is when you say "You cost me Alistair."

 

"You'll thank me for that."

 

Whether he himself means something disparaging against Alistair or not, I think the writers are giving you a wink there. Loghain is your one chance to save you and Alistair from the demand of the Wardens and the schemes of Flemeth. And all it costs is not be vengeful, for once. I think the story ultimately will punish the vengeful, one way or another. Whether by the ultimate sacrifice or some clusterf*ck that comes from the Dark Ritual eventually.

So, a cheap shot at anyone who might have romanced Alistair, among quite a few others? That doesn't strike me as a good idea.


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#90
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So, a cheap shot at anyone who might have romanced Alistair, among quite a few others? That doesn't strike me as a good idea.

 

Yeah, I don't understand this line of reasoning. I don't think killing loghain is so much an act of revenge as much as justice for all he just did and the fact that (outside of the game mechanics that are thrust upon you so suddenly) he could still cause an uprising after you kill the archdeamon. Whether or not you won the landsmeet, if you are playing to put the best person on the throne then how do you rationalize at that point in time letting the man who aimed to kill off all the grey wardens live? Who was in league with howe who slaughtered the couslands, abducted another noble for torture, and loghain who already tried to kill an arl as well as enslave the elves yet still happens to be a hero to those who do not know all the details and facts. Such men if they are allowed to live can become powerful figures and sure as hell a civil war might ensue. It's actually kind of illogical to not kill him right there given that he might inspire some kind of civil war down the line. Lesser men have been the catalyst for more.

 

Edited to add for clarity: At the moment you spare him, you do not know the outcome that will follow. Should he live things could get a lot worse in ferelden.



#91
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If it makes you feel better, all romances are screwed eventually anyways. They all become a long distance relationship transitioning into a tragic missing persons case. Yay.

 

edit: My bad. Forgot about Morrigan.


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#92
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I think she does so a bit more maturely than Alistair does, though. And she's more willing to work with you after not getting her way than a non-hardened Alistair.

 

Well, he did kill her husband, directly or indirectly. She has acknowledged that. She also wants to be queen and she knows the score. Hero of Ferelden is not someone she wants to go against, queen or not. Alistair doesn't play to that kind of political maneuvering but she was maneuvering politically long before you got to denerim though she says she feared for her life to some degree it is clear that this was her ploy to get you to do what she wanted. Not trying to be confrontational but really they are two very different people. She is much more of a manipulator in this way. Alistair is very straight forward and expects an ally to not let who he sees as a murderous traitor live. I think that's the difference between the two. Alistair is much more forthright. While people condemn him for it, he has a set of standards that he will not back down from. Riordan wanting to make Loghain a grey warden at that moment was truest grey warden form - grabbing another body to do the deed with no regard for everything that was just done. Actually a very desperate act. But Alistair finds it utterly distasteful. And really, anyone who finds Loghain's actions to be traitorous and/or criminal would feel the same. it's a matte of how you see loghain at this point as well as without metagaming, do you think letting loghain live would be good for ferelden because personally that seems like a huge threat of civil war from loghain supporters could become an issue. Only the nobles know  about the landsmeet information. We don't know how commoners would view it or if they would learn of it at all.



#93
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If it makes you feel better, all romances are screwed eventually anyways. They all become a long distance relationship transitioning into a tragic missing persons case. Yay.

 

edit: My bad. Forgot about Morrigan.

 

So sad but so true though I think for the human noble immediate closure is the best. The rest are kind of disregarded as if the romance wasn't even relevant to the game.



#94
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Well, he did kill her husband, directly or indirectly. She has acknowledged that. She also wants to be queen and she knows the score. Hero of Ferelden is not someone she wants to go against, queen or not. Alistair doesn't play to that kind of political maneuvering but she was maneuvering politically long before you got to denerim though she says she feared for her life to some degree it is clear that this was her ploy to get you to do what she wanted. Not trying to be confrontational but really they are two very different people. She is much more of a manipulator in this way. Alistair is very straight forward and expects an ally to not let who he sees as a murderous traitor live. I think that's the difference between the two. Alistair is much more forthright. While people condemn him for it, he has a set of standards that he will not back down from. Riordan wanting to make Loghain a grey warden at that moment was truest grey warden form - grabbing another body to do the deed with no regard for everything that was just done. Actually a very desperate act. But Alistair finds it utterly distasteful. And really, anyone who finds Loghain's actions to be traitorous and/or criminal would feel the same. it's a matte of how you see loghain at this point as well as without metagaming, do you think letting loghain live would be good for ferelden because personally that seems like a huge threat of civil war from loghain supporters could become an issue. Only the nobles know  about the landsmeet information. We don't know how commoners would view it or if they would learn of it at all.

Yes, but the problem is that much of Alistair's issue with Loghain is the rather questionable idea that if Loghain had charged, Duncan and Cailan would have lived. There's other things that someone who believes in capital punishment (and you might understand me better if I point out that I don't) might kill him over, but this is the major accusation that Alistair levels. And there's a reason the Landsmeet won't accept it if you try it.

 

There's other reasons to kill him: his less ambiguously evil actions, fear of betrayal, a feeling that people who would otherwise rebel will be cowed by his death, but Alistair doesn't raise any of these and as you've alluded to I'm not so sure any of this would have stopped Duncan were he in charge of the survivors. I'm not arguing that any of this makes recruiting Loghain a good idea (barring metagame knowledge that he won't betray you), just that Alistair's reasons for killing Loghain are not the process of a mature, objective mind.



#95
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I get it. He lost his friends. That sucks.

 

Still doesn't make him less biased in his views of how "awesome" the Grey Wardens are.

 

If anything, his experiences are expressly why he looks at them with rose-tinted glasses. Criminy cripes, his idol was once a thief and murderer.

 

 

And you're not biased because you and possibly your character lived a sickeningly privileged life with loving parents and no need to form attachments with anyone else?

 

Face it, buddy. We're ALL biased. We can only see the world only from our own perspectives and thus can only be subjective. You're no different. You're just as biased and subjective as you accuse others of being, you've just deluded yourself into thinking you're Right.

 

Your view and your character's view of Duncan and the Grey Wardens is just as biased as Alistair's because you're coming from different life experiences and perspectives, yet you think yourself less biased, less subjective, and more clear-thinking just because your life experiences that formed your opinions are somehow Right and Normal while his are not?

 

Eh, sorry, but I don't buy that his defensive response to Morrigan was that well thought out icon_lol.gif ... especially for a guy who's in a state of grief and thus probably not thinking straight. Conscious or not, though, he saw nothing wrong in scale with comparing his loss to the hypothetical loss of a parent.

 

How narcissistic of you to see nothing wrong with belittling the experiences of others because it doesn't line up with Your experiences and worldviews. Because, of course, you are Right, you see things Clearly, and you Get It. Everyone else? Oh, they're just biased and not thinking clearly. If only they experienced what You experienced in life, saw what You saw, and think how You think. Then they would have the One Corrrect Way of seeing and perceiving because they saw it Your Way... wait, what?

 

Maybe Alistair sees nothing wrong with comparing the two because that's actually the way he feels. After all, Alistair has lived through the supposed death of a biological parent, since Maric had been "lost to sea" five years prior (and yes, I know that David Gaider's comic series follows up on what actually happened to Maric) so he knows what that experience is like. Despite this, Alistair still feels deeply grieved by the loss of Duncan and the Grey Wardens. He's been on both sides of the spectrum: the death (supposed) of a biological parent and that of someone he looks up to as a surrogate parent. He can compare the two because he's experienced the two.

 

If anything, Alistair is less biased than you in this regard, unless You've lost both a biological parent and a surrogate parent in your life, and can compare the two.

 

And yes, I do find that questionable (for want of a better word) for him to think his relationship with Duncan is anywhere near "family" level.

 

Why? People are emotionally, psychologically, and socially capable of forming close familial bonds with others not related by blood. "Sometimes family is who you love and who's there for you, not just who you're related to," and all that fluffy stuff. That's why adoption and fostering exists.

 

That he thinks it is just goes to show that he's out-of-touch with reality (and thus his judgment is suspect). It's not comparable, because Duncan's support for him has strings attached -- Alistair has to be a Grey Warden. Take that away, you think Duncan would even bother? The answer is "no," and that's what Alistair doesn't get. Your parents are the only people in the world that truly give a s*** about you, for no reason other than you being their child (unless they're broken individuals). Take them away, and you've got no one looking out for you. Not without some strings attached, anyway.

 

 

Pft! That you think that just goes to show how out-of-touch you are with reality and the things countless people experience every day.

 

So, according to you, people are emotionally and psychologically incapable of forming familial attachments unless they're biologically create someone or are created by someone, and are therefor required to trigger emotional attachments in the brain--unless there's something seriously wrong with them to form attachments with someone not they did not create or were not created by. Friendships, adoptions, surrogate families, etc? There's no real love or attachment between anyone unless one sprang from loins of another. Unless someone carries your genetic makeup, you are emotionally and psychologically incapable of forming any bonds--and those that think they do are just damaged and deluding themselves.

 

I think you placed WAY too much value on biological parent/children and WAY too little on the bonds, friendships, attachments of... virtually every other kind of human relationship. Take half of the reverence you place on biological parent/children relationships, put it toward those of every other emotional bond ever made by every type of person (grandparent/grandchild, sibling, friends, romantic, surrogate filial, etc) and I think you'll be closer to the spectrum of actual human emotions.

 

How it is that you can be idealistic and misanthropic at the same time? You say that parents are the only ones that truly give a **** about you "unless they're broken individuals." I can turn that around and say maybe the people who can only give a **** about someone if they're their genetic offspring are the ones who're "broken individuals." I mean, how emotionally bankrupt do you have to be to be incapable of caring about someone unless they carry your genetic makeup, and thus you only REALLY care about them because they're an extension of yourself? (Which, when you think about it, means that, by your definition, parents aren't "the only people in the world that give two shits about you... without some strings attached," because there are strings attached. They want you to live and succeed because you are an extension of themselves, and seeing to it that you thrive means they thrive by extension.)

 

At any rate, we see biological parent and child relationships that mean squat in the game. We see in the game that Alistair doesn't have a deep personal relationship with his blood family because none of them ever acted like a family. He could have been fathered by a stable hand for all the shits Maric gave him. His brother could have been Connor instead of Cailan for how much time they spent together. Flemeth was all Morrigan had growing up and it's never made clear whether they're biologically related (though Maric's run-in with Flemeth in one of the books implies it could be the case), regardless, both are willing to use, cast off and kill each other to get what they want. Biological or not, they have all the love of cannibalistic spiders being willing to eat their own.

 

And you think Alistair is the one that has something wrong with him because he doesn't form emotional attachments exclusively with his biological parents (at the exclusion of all other people) even though his life experiences taught him that (contrary to Your life experiences) parents are NOT "the only ones that give two shits about you" because his only known biological parent never gave two shits about him?

 

Cripes Almighty...


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#96
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If he does view Duncan as a parent, it's a bit weird then. He's only been a Warden six months. And this so called parent put him in the Joining to boot.

 

It's just as weird if Jon Snow got attached to the leader of the Wall in Game of Thrones. The Wardens are no different. They're a grim bunch.



#97
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If he does view Duncan as a parent, it's a bit weird then. He's only been a Warden six months. And this so called parent put him in the Joining to boot.

He also let Alistair sleep in a bed. (Edit: I think.)

 

 

 

It's just as weird if Jon Snow got attached to the leader of the Wall in Game of Thrones. The Wardens are no different. They're a grim bunch.

 

Not quite. Snow wasn't completely starved for affection at Winterfell. His stepmother wasn't all that warm, but the rest of the family (consisting of father and legitimate siblings) actually loved him. If Eamon truly loved Alistair as a son, (and there's hints in that direction) one can still be forgiven for doubting. And Alistair was shoved out before the legitimate son was even born, I think. (Edit: Also, I don't remember ever hearing that Ned made Jon sleep in the stables, though I'm just going by the show and the wiki so I could be missing something.)



#98
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If he does view Duncan as a parent, it's a bit weird then. He's only been a Warden six months.

 

It's not how much time you know someone, it's what you do with that time. I have friends I've known for years that I'm not as close to as those I've only known for several months, because we've had more meaningful interactions, conversations, events, etc.

 

And this so called parent put him in the Joining to boot.

 

Partly because it's what Alistair wanted. He wanted to join the Grey Wardens so much he could barely stand it, the Grey Wardens needed someone like Alistair, and the only way to become a Warden is to go through the Joining. What? Should Duncan have made Alistair stay with the Chantry where he would be physically alive and unharmed, but over time feel increasingly emotionally numb, empty, bitter, resentful, hating himself, his vows and his life? (Like that Templar you encounter in the Circle who more or less willingly submitted to the Desire Demon's illusion because it was the life he desperately wanted but that he could never have as a Templar.)


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#99
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Yes, but the problem is that much of Alistair's issue with Loghain is the rather questionable idea that if Loghain had charged, Duncan and Cailan would have lived. There's other things that someone who believes in capital punishment (and you might understand me better if I point out that I don't) might kill him over, but this is the major accusation that Alistair levels. And there's a reason the Landsmeet won't accept it if you try it.

 

Indeed. It seems most of the landsmeet is about the whole Ostagar situation. When it comes to decide Loghain's fate that's all every one brings up. I'm also not an big fan on behading an man right in front of his daughter and the entire Ferelden leadership. I wish there was an option to arrest him or something.



#100
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It's not how much time you know someone, it's what you do with that time. I have friends I've known for years that I'm not as close to as those I've only known for several months, because we've had more meaningful interactions, conversations, events, etc.

 

 

 

 

Because it's what Alistair wanted. He wanted to join the Grey Wardens so much he could barely stand it, the Grey Wardens needed someone like Alistair, and the only way to become a Warden is to go through the Joining. Should he have made him stay with the Chantry where he would be physically alive and unharmed, but over time feel increasingly emotionally numb and empty, hating himself, hating his life, feeling bitter and resentful of his vows because it condemns him to a life he hates at the exclusion of the life he wants? (Like that Templar you encounter in the Circle who more or less willingly submitted to the Desire Demon's illusion because it was the life he desperately wanted.)

 

 

We don't know that's why he was recruited. Alistair thinks Duncan did it for him. You can question that right when you at meet at Ostagar. "Maybe he thought you would be useful." Then he gets a little mad about it. But we don't know either way.

 

Considering Ser Jory's same enthusiasm to impress and get into Wardens, I don't think Duncan cares about these type of things. People are expendable.