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Why is Alistair so damn likeable?

Débuté par dshoub , mars 22 2014 07:09

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#101
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 01:31

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If he does view Duncan as a parent, it's a bit weird then. He's only been a Warden six months. And this so called parent put him in the Joining to boot.

 

I don't think it's a parent so much as someone he clearly respected that he felt saved him from a life he hated and also was the FIRST person in his life by his own admission to give a damn about what he wanted. The first person to care. As someone who has a psychology degree with graduate studies as well and has worked with people in many therapeutic environments, often people with histories of abuse or neglect as Alistair has, I have to give credit to BW writing on this one because his character has nuances that are rather well done. All the information is there and it fits almost dead on what you would expect if you were a profession working with someone like him. Yes, goofily written at times and sometimes poorly written due to him becoming a chess piece for the landsmeet. Also some of his actions don't always work with what they want so there's some manipulations there. But from my own experience here, I can say that I've worked with people who bonded with me to a pretty strong degree within a matter of a few months and that was not seeing them everyday as Alistair did and in a professional capacity. They saw me as some a myraid of things depending on what that person needed. Mother figure (despite I was not really old enough to be their mother but I think it was an archetypal thing), sometimes more like a family member or confidant, close friend, etc. You fill that role for the person and Alistair very much needed a connection to someone after the life he lived with zero connection to anyone and how he was treated poorly and an outcast no matter what group it was. The only place he was not an outcast going by his stories is with the grey wardens. Duncan was the only person who had ever even given one iota's worth of care for him and we as players can see there are reasons to dislike Duncan. He didn't do him as much a favor as Alistair pretends. He's clearly not as happy about being a warden or about all the unsavory stuff that comes with it, but for someone as desperate as he was, it is easy to see how he would come to view Duncan as a paternal figure or just someone who mattered to him a great deal. For people like use who haven't lived a life as Alistair has, it's hard to fathom, but I've worked with people who have had no parental figures or have been very damaged by them in ways similar to Alistair, and that part of his character is dead on. Also, the need to kill loghain makes more sense in that context because beneath the veneer of human is still that angry boy to some degree.


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#102
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 01:34

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@starlitegirlx

 

Fair enough. I have no response to that. I'll defer to your more insightful opinion here.

 

No, that isn't sarcasm. lol. I'm actually dropping my point.


#103
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 01:42

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We don't know that's why he was recruited. Alistair thinks Duncan did it for him. You can question that right when you at meet at Ostagar. "Maybe he thought you would be useful." Then he gets a little mad about it. But we don't know either way.

 

Considering Ser Jory's same enthusiasm to impress and get into Wardens, I don't think Duncan cares about these type of things. People are expendable.

 

I agree that Duncan doesn't see it the way Alistair does but Alistair is the one who is damaged and Duncan clearly fills some sort of role in his life. The rest of us see it quite differently. Duncan lied like all grey wardens do about the joining. Secrets secrets... they do you NO favors. They don't. But Alistair was desperate to get out of the chantry and thinks Duncan saved him. If you are a Cousland you get to see the kind of saving Duncan actually does. He tells your father who is dying on the floor that there are greater problems in the world (the blight) and he will save you if you become a grey warden. I always thought it was worded horribly but now I think it might have been some brilliant writing to show just how damn callous Duncan was. He killed Jory right in front of you with not a bit of true remorse. And yet... you can't say a word against Duncan about any of this to Alistair or poof goes your rating with him. He's just not rational about it and has a very deep attachment to him, sees Duncan as his savior of sorts and is unwilling to truly admit how displeased he is about much of the crap that came with being a warden though it's all there in conversations you have with him. Subtle but there.


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#104
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 01:44

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@starlitegirlx

 

Fair enough. I have no response to that. I'll defer to your more insightful opinion here.

 

No, that isn't sarcasm. lol. I'm actually dropping my point.

 

 

It was just a perspective. I like the discussion. Not meant to make you or anyone drop their point of view. Just more of an insight into it. Nobody is right or wrong here.

 

I will admit I'm quite fascinated with how well Alistair is written in this regard though. Dead on from my experience.


#105
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 01:49

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It was just a perspective. I like the discussion. Not meant to make you or anyone drop their point of view. Just more of an insight into it. Nobody is right or wrong here.

 

I will admit I'm quite fascinated with how well Alistair is written in this regard though. Dead on from my experience.

 

I'll participate in this discussion, but I meant I'll drop the point about Alistair only being in the Wardens for six months. What you said about his immediate attachment makes sense.


#106
Jaison1986
Posté 25 mars 2014 - 01:54

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I agree that Duncan doesn't see it the way Alistair does but Alistair is the one who is damaged and Duncan clearly fills some sort of role in his life. The rest of us see it quite differently. Duncan lied like all grey wardens do about the joining. Secrets secrets... they do you NO favors. They don't. But Alistair was desperate to get out of the chantry and thinks Duncan saved him. If you are a Cousland you get to see the kind of saving Duncan actually does. He tells your father who is dying on the floor that there are great problems in the world (the blight) and he will save you if you become a grey warden. I always thought it was worded horribly but not I think it might have been some brilliant writing to show just how damn callous Duncan was. He killed Jory right in front of you with no a bit of true remorse. And yet... can't say a word against Duncan for any of this to Alistair or poof goes your rating with him. He's just not rational about it and has a very deep attachment to him, sees Duncan as his savior of sorts and is unwilling to truly admit how displeased he is about much of the crap that came with being a warden though it's all there in conversations you have with him. Subtle but there.

 

Wow, well said. We know for a fact Alistair looks up to Duncan, but does Duncan feels the same about him? Because as polite and mindful Duncan acts, he still see his peers as expandable tools that might be needed to end the blight. The way he kills Jory, or when he forces wardens like the human noble and dalish elf into recruitment shows he is more concerned with getting the job done then doing what is best for his people. And that comment of "maybe Duncan thought you would be useful" maybe be more truthful then we realize.


#107
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 01:57

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I'll participate in this discussion, but I meant I'll drop the point about Alistair only being in the Wardens for six months. What you said about his immediate attachment makes sense.

 

Great! I love this discussion!

 

Six months seems rather absurd until you dig into it a bit (and in my case I do have some specific insight). I initially thought it was rally WEIRD until more of his story evolved and even after completing my first playthrough I still missed some of the parts to put it all together because I was more or less playing the game and romancing him. In subsequent games I found more places where I would ask more questions (which I don't always do in the first run as I'm more focused on doing what needs to be done) and as I dug into those questions, initial preconceptions about Alistair and his feelings on being a warden as well as even his not wanting to be king (because I feel he actually prefers this if you harden him and if you romance him and he can either have you on the side or as a noble queen wife) are much different than he articulates. Most of what he says is not the whole story. Dig deeper and you learn quite a lot and the puzzle pieces fit together very well.


#108
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 02:03

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Wow, well said. We know for a fact Alistair looks up to Duncan, but does Duncan feels the same about him? Because as polite and mindful Duncan acts, he still see his peers as expandable tools that might be needed to end the blight. The way he kills Jory, or when he forces wardens like the human noble and dalish elf into recruitment shows he is more concerned with getting the job done then doing what is best for his people. And that comment of "maybe Duncan thought you would be useful" maybe be more truthful then we realize.

 

I think the mage is the only one that doesn't really give you the extra insight other than if you talk to him about it further he does say they need more mages and following you do feel a bit like you are a tool he will use. They need mages so he comes to get you. You are being rescued from the circle but given that the circle in Ferelden (after they clean up the mess) is actually not really bad - few tranquils and the teachers there seemed to be living long lives and Wynne can go off as she pleases - then maybe he's really not rescuing you at all. Once you are off with him, you have 30 years to live, nightmares, and oh yeah, gotta save the world from a blight pretty much by yourself since Alistair is just following you. But the dialogue with the mage even has an air of 'we need mages' so you feel more like a tool to be used rather than 'we need strong mages like you' or anything that would make you feel more like it was not about him filling a slot in HIS roster.


#109
Xilizhra
Posté 25 mars 2014 - 02:09

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I think the mage is the only one that doesn't really give you the extra insight other than if you talk to him about it further he does say they need more mages and following you do feel a bit like you are a tool he will use. They need mages so he comes to get you. You are being rescued from the circle but given that the circle in Ferelden (after they clean up the mess) is actually not really bad - few tranquils and the teachers there seemed to be living long lives and Wynne can go off as she pleases - then maybe he's really not rescuing you at all. Once you are off with him, you have 30 years to live, nightmares, and oh yeah, gotta save the world from a blight pretty much by yourself since Alistair is just following you. But the dialogue with the mage even has an air of 'we need mages' so you feel more like a tool to be used rather than 'we need strong mages like you' or anything that would make you feel more like it was not about him filling a slot in HIS roster.

Ah, but you have far more than thirty years if you duplicate Avernus' trick. In fact, theoretically you could have centuries.


#110
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 02:20

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Ah, but you have far more than thirty years if you duplicate Avernus' trick. In fact, theoretically you could have centuries.

 

Wasn't he in some kind of weird blood magic bubble and not really living life at all? Kind of stuck there for as long as he survived? Wasn't that a bit more like a prison or death sentence that adds years but not really giving any quality of life.


#111
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 02:20

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Not sure why, but mage is the only one I've played that I go willingly. Human noble and Dalish get conscripted.


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#112
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 02:27

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Not sure why, but mage is the only one I've played that I go willingly. Human noble and Dalish get conscripted.

 

I haven't played the dalish yet but I would imagine that for the noble, you would not want to leave your family. As a mage it's kind of like a freedom or feels that way. And you are sort of put in that awful position where Gregor and maybe even Irving thinks you're a traitor and the whole things just looks so awful. That makes sense to want to go as there's not a lot there for you. I am also thinking back to the dialouge and I think to get conscripted you would probably have to say you wanted to stay at the circle, that you belong there or it was your home which probably did not seem the case to you.

 

I don't know about the elf one but for the human mage (going to make him conscript me next time as a human noble) but the situation with your family as a noble, if you are really role playing, I think you might not want to leave your family behind like that. I always go because I know I'm going to have to anyway, which isn't realy role playing at that point... but why would you want to go and know your father is dying on the floor and who knows what they'll do to your mother. I was glad kissing Howe's feet was the worst of it.


#113
Xilizhra
Posté 25 mars 2014 - 02:31

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Wasn't he in some kind of weird blood magic bubble and not really living life at all? Kind of stuck there for as long as he survived? Wasn't that a bit more like a prison or death sentence that adds years but not really giving any quality of life.

I don't think so, it's just that he couldn't leave without releasing the demons. And it also blocked out the Calling.


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#114
iOnlySignIn
Posté 25 mars 2014 - 02:41

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It's his voice.

 

Steve Valentine has a unique voice. So earnest, and yet so full of charm.


#115
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 02:45

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I haven't played the dalish yet but I would imagine that for the noble, you would not want to leave your family. As a mage it's kind of like a freedom or feels that way. And you are sort of put in that awful position where Gregor and maybe even Irving thinks you're a traitor and the whole things just looks so awful. That makes sense to want to go as there's not a lot there for you. I am also thinking back to the dialouge and I think to get conscripted you would probably have to say you wanted to stay at the circle, that you belong there or it was your home which probably did not seem the case to you.

 

I don't know about the elf one but for the human mage (going to make him conscript me next time as a human noble) but the situation with your family as a noble, if you are really role playing, I think you might not want to leave your family behind like that. I always go because I know I'm going to have to anyway, which isn't realy role playing at that point... but why would you want to go and know your father is dying on the floor and who knows what they'll do to your mother. I was glad kissing Howe's feet was the worst of it.

 

Dalish is similar to HN.. you don't want to abandon all of the people you've known and loved. Only in the Dalish case, you've been tainted by darkspawn, and Duncan offers a "cure". I like it though.. reminds me of the times when me and friends used to run off getting in trouble or something, and something bad happen.. like a friend broke a leg or fell down and cut himself. Your whole day changes.


#116
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 12:55

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Dalish is similar to HN.. you don't want to abandon all of the people you've known and loved. Only in the Dalish case, you've been tainted by darkspawn, and Duncan offers a "cure". I like it though.. reminds me of the times when me and friends used to run off getting in trouble or something, and something bad happen.. like a friend broke a leg or fell down and cut himself. Your whole day changes.

 

I'm still having fun with the noble human because I really love the sense of closure for that but I'm leaning toward branching out. I've been playing as someone who sees Duncan as pulling my butt out of a fire as both the mage and noble. I've never seen him as anyone but someone who aimed to help and yes get his warden, but I always played one who wanted to be a warden. Knew of the wardens and as a warrior or a mage who feels their won't be of much use otherwise given their treatment, it made sense. Started a game yesterday where I played a noble who did not want to leave her family... leave her dying father's side. Before I played her as a more fierce warrior who saw there was no point to staying especially when they do want you to go and you do want to be a warden. Now I played her as someone who feels she was dragged from their side to serve this purpose for him. Like he did me a favor but not really and then I discover there are a whole lot of things attached to it. So it was really no favor at all. So very different and frankly, I don't think I am going any further in this game because it colors every response I have especially with Alistair because he sees all of this as grand and they don't even have responses that are appropriate that my character would say under those circumstances but what I do says gets me negative really fast. Interesting for role play but I'll end up being pissed and can see how others feel a lot of disdain toward the wardens if they role played that way. Or feel how Alistair was kind of a naive fool or tool regarding it. When you go in conscripted and really adopt that tone, then go through the joining, it's pretty horrible.

 

Makes me think about how I conscripted Nathaniel and Anders. Both of them were a bit better though because they were already in a serious jam and had nobody. I wasn't making them abandon anyone or anything. I was giving them a chance where the other options were prison or death. But playing as one who wanted to stay by her family and death didn't matter as much as abandoning them or not trying to save them, it really taints how you feel about the wardens and Duncan, especially once the details are revealed. Can't go any further with that character because it kind of puts me in a cranky mood. But I get it now. I can see how people have disdain for wardens.


#117
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 01:43

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But I get it now. I can see how people have disdain for wardens.

 

Heh. I hope I can storm one of their bases with Cassandra, like it shows in the DAI trailer.

 

edit: Oh, as for Human Nobles, it depends. Being a Warrior and eager for battle blends well with being a Warden. You're no different than Ser Gilmore in that respect. As a rogue, I like to play something a little different. He's comfortable, a bit frivolous and a ladies' man, and still responsible enough to run the castle. In a way, he's relieved to not go to Ostagar. He might be rogue-ish, but he's also a momma's boy. Loves his family. I kind of think their concept art of HN was a rogue (link). After the Castle is invaded though, vengeance sets in. So he becomes a sort of robin hood type. He just uses the Warden opportunity to slowly make his way to Denerim. The overarching duty of being a Warden starts weighing on him though. And characters like Wynne or Sten annoy him greatly. They don't think you can even enjoy life or have an identity outside of "duty".


#118
Jaison1986
Posté 25 mars 2014 - 01:53

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Heh. I hope I can storm one of their bases with Cassandra, like it shows in the DAI trailer.

 

I don't think I would go this far. Even tough I don't like the wardens one bit, it doesn't change the fact they are an necessary evil, without them, Thedas would be screwed.

 

@starlitegirlx, actually, if you let Nathaniel go, you will find him in an random encounter were he willing asks you to join. 


#119
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 02:15

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I don't think I would go this far. Even tough I don't like the wardens one bit, it doesn't change the fact they are an necessary evil, without them, Thedas would be screwed.

 

@starlitegirlx, actually, if you let Nathaniel go, you will find him in an random encounter were he willing asks you to join. 

 

lol.. I don't really have a detailed excuse for it. It just sounds fun. Lets just say that I want to close the chapter on my time playing as a Warden in DAO, by going full gusto and being a jerk to them in other titles.


#120
Mike3207
Posté 25 mars 2014 - 03:01

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You don't think it's a betrayal to let Loghain live after all he did... sending an assassin, turning his back on the king and duncan, sending people after you, lying about the grey wardens, the whole alienage mess... I think it's a betrayal to my own character nevermind Alistair.

Well, as far as sending an assassin, doesn't Morrigan suggest you do something similar-go after Loghain and kill him? There's a civil war on, and both sides should expect assassination is going to be a inexpensive way to win the Civil War. If Loghain manages to kill the Warden, then there's nothing stopping him after that.

 

I don't think Ostagar was winnable, not after the mistakes that were made at the start. No defensive fortifications, no use of magic, no use of archers past that first volley, and just too many darkspawn on the field. Loghain probably saved the rest of the army by the retreat, and it's clear that the army feels the same way. You can't convince any soldier that Loghain wasn't right to withdraw the Army, not without a significant Persuade check.

 

Lying about the Wardens-well at the start, Loghain thinks all the Wardens are dead. He needs a significant bogeyman to blame for Ostagar, and the Wardens will do nicely. They're all dead right?In hindsoght, he probably thinks he should have picked a better cover story, but he does admit to making tactical errors.

 

The Alienage-more than anything-that's what i think will stick. It's hard for anyone to explain away selling human beings into slavery.

 

Overall, for me it comes down to Loghain being a skilled general with a lot of influence over the army. How is it going to affect army morale if you kill their commanding officer? We see in DA2 Ferelden tries to bring back soldiers with army experience from Kirkwall, so I think it's obviously a issue. You want a good general around to deal with the Qunari/Templar armies/Orlais etc.I think Loghain did some bad things, but Ferelden will be better off if he survives.


#121
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 03:06

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Heh. I hope I can storm one of their bases with Cassandra, like it shows in the DAI trailer.

 

edit: Oh, as for Human Nobles, it depends. Being a Warrior and eager for battle blends well with being a Warden. You're no different than Ser Gilmore in that respect. As a rogue, I like to play something a little different. He's comfortable, a bit frivolous and a ladies' man, and still responsible enough to run the castle. In a way, he's relieved to not go to Ostagar. He might be rogue-ish, but he's also a momma's boy. Loves his family. I kind of think their concept art of HN was a rogue (link). After the Castle is invaded though, vengeance sets in. So he becomes a sort of robin hood type. He just uses the Warden opportunity to slowly make his way to Denerim. The overarching duty of being a Warden starts weighing on him though. And characters like Wynne or Sten annoy him greatly. They don't think you can even enjoy life or have an identity outside of "duty".

 

Ah then you are the perfect person to ask this... I was going to play a rogue for a first time but I'm not sure I would like it much. I never really actively control my rogues. How is it for gameplay? I was thinking dual would be fun. I loved it in skyrim but that was much different with stealth very prominent. Could you compare the two? I'm not huge on always using the abilities unless I'm a mage where it's a must. I've read that you do have to micro manage a bit. Is that so?


#122
Riverdaleswhiteflash
Posté 25 mars 2014 - 03:10

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Lying about the Wardens-well at the start, Loghain thinks all the Wardens are dead. He needs a significant bogeyman to blame for Ostagar, and the Wardens will do nicely. They're all dead right?In hindsoght, he probably thinks he should have picked a better cover story, but he does admit to making tactical errors.

Most of the rest of your post I agree with, but I have a minor nitpick here: the signal was off by Alistair's own admission. Loghain knows the beacon was lit at an inappropriate time. He might not be using a cover story. He might believe it. Certainly he has reason to.


#123
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 03:11

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I don't think I would go this far. Even tough I don't like the wardens one bit, it doesn't change the fact they are an necessary evil, without them, Thedas would be screwed.

 

@starlitegirlx, actually, if you let Nathaniel go, you will find him in an random encounter were he willing asks you to join. 

 

Oh that's interesting. Of course, in DAA my random encounters get kind of screwy. And I like having him right from the start. My role playing with him is always the same. I feel he was a victim of his father as much as I was (when I'm a noble which lately I always am - it's good to be queen...). So when I choose to conscript him I do it because I want to give him that chance to redeem himself and to keep him around so I can return items he wants since I think they should be his.

 

Is the random encounter one that I might miss? Beause that merchant woman is not always a given. Sometimes she shows up with no encounter and I cannot complete that. I'd rather not risk it but it would be run to let him come to me and want to be a warden.


#124
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Posté 25 mars 2014 - 03:23

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Well, as far as sending an assassin, doesn't Morrigan suggest you do something similar-go after Loghain and kill him? There's a civil war on, and both sides should expect assassination is going to be a inexpensive way to win the Civil War. If Loghain manages to kill the Warden, then there's nothing stopping him after that.

 

I don't think Ostagar was winnable, not after the mistakes that were made at the start. No defensive fortifications, no use of magic, no use of archers past that first volley, and just too many darkspawn on the field. Loghain probably saved the rest of the army by the retreat, and it's clear that the army feels the same way. You can't convince any soldier that Loghain wasn't right to withdraw the Army, not without a significant Persuade check.

 

Lying about the Wardens-well at the start, Loghain thinks all the Wardens are dead. He needs a significant bogeyman to blame for Ostagar, and the Wardens will do nicely. They're all dead right?In hindsoght, he probably thinks he should have picked a better cover story, but he does admit to making tactical errors.

 

The Alienage-more than anything-that's what i think will stick. It's hard for anyone to explain away selling human beings into slavery.

 

Overall, for me it comes down to Loghain being a skilled general with a lot of influence over the army. How is it going to affect army morale if you kill their commanding officer? We see in DA2 Ferelden tries to bring back soldiers with army experience from Kirkwall, so I think it's obviously a issue. You want a good general around to deal with the Qunari/Templar armies/Orlais etc.I think Loghain did some bad things, but Ferelden will be better off if he survives.

 

I can see your perspective. I think because I usually romance Alistair there is no way I would do it as that would to me be wrong. He is my ally. He is my friend. He trusts me and follows my choices even when he doesn't agree. He feels very betrayed by Loghain I think because he respected him so much and to some degree he seems to still see Cailan as his half brother while not realy fully acknowledging it. I think there's something there. Make him king and he calls him 'brother'. So it's a family matter from my perspective by the time we are at the landsmeet. Letting the general who turned his back on Alistair's brother and father figure seems live feels wrong the same way I would not let Howe live if playing a noble. While to some it seems like Loghain is just being a general, the fact that when you speak to ser donnelly in the chantry in lothering and learn that eamon was poisoned before ostagar happened.... sorry but that's just way too incriminating. This was a plan in motion long before Osatagar happened and Loghain defenders never seem to admit this point. As if Jowan would lie when he has no reason to want eamon dead. None. This was a powerplay by Loghain because of Cailan's willingness to work with both wardens and Orlais, two groups he hates. Eamon's poisoning, accoring to donnelly (I think that's his name) takes place before Ostagar and he doesn't think it is related but then wonders. There's no loop hole out of that one. That is very strategic and frames things much differently. And it also now gives one more reason to kill Loghain... he tried to kill eamon who is Alistair's uncle. So he pretty much wanted to kill or did kill Alistair's family or lineage if you don't think 'family' is appropriate. Feels like he wanted everyone important in the king's family dead and that is just unacceptable. 

 

I don't see the difference between that and killing Howe. But that's just my perspective.


#125
CrimsonN7
Posté 25 mars 2014 - 03:24

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Is he? I find him incredibly irritating myself.


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