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Why is Alistair so damn likeable?


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#126
Mike3207

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Things are a bit different if you run a F Cousland/Alistair or M Cousland/Anora pairing. You have a strong RP reason to want to make your betrothed happy, and to do the things that will make them happy. For me, I'm not going to deny that one factor in me sparing Loghain on my M Couslands playthroughs is because it's something that is very important to Anora. For a F Cousland, i can see where killing Loghain would be something you would have to go along with to marry Alistair. In fact, I think it's required.

 

Eamon-I've made my point before but I'm a bit disappointed that the poisoning was unsuccessful. I loathe Eamon and would have liked the option to kill him myself.

 

Jowan-he said he recognized Loghain from a painting he saw. Not sure how reliable that is. As for the disaster at the Circle, I blame Wynne. If she had not interfered, Loghain might have been able to free the Circle. My guess is he was going to threaten to use the army against the templars. In any case, my human mage gives Loghain points for trying to free the Circle.



#127
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Most of the rest of your post I agree with, but I have a minor nitpick here: the signal was off by Alistair's own admission. Loghain knows the beacon was lit at an inappropriate time. He might not be using a cover story. He might believe it. Certainly he has reason to.

 

But he also knew there were darkspawn in that tower. He had men in there. He knew of the hole. The whole lighting of the beacon is highly suspect to me because of this. Originally he wanted his men to light it. It doesn't get lit and there is no proof that he turned his men from the field. When he sees it is lit, he doesn't look happy about it at all. He looks pretty pissed or surprised. I suspect that beacon wasn't supposed to be lit. He knew there was a hole where darkspawn could pour out of. He had men in there. I think the guard tells you that when you arrive. They are all dead. He wanted his men to be responsible for lighting the beacon. The whole thing feels very fishy especially when it looks like he really didn't expect it to be lit.



#128
DarthGizka

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Most of the rest of your post I agree with, but I have a minor nitpick here: the signal was off by Alistair's own admission.

 

I don't remember that bit. Could you clarify?

 

The whole Ishal thing didn't wash somehow. You battle your way to the top without any clear idea how much time you have left, then you light the beacon without having received a signal, and then you are supposedly overwhelmed by a handful of grunts whom you would have nuked in two seconds flat even if they had managed to surprise you.



#129
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Things are a bit different if you run a F Cousland/Alistair or M Cousland/Anora pairing. You have a strong RP reason to want to make your betrothed happy, and to do the things that will make them happy. For me, I'm not going to deny that one factor in me sparing Loghain on my M Couslands playthroughs is because it's something that is very important to Anora. For a F Cousland, i can see where killing Loghain would be something you would have to go along with to marry Alistair. In fact, I think it's required.

 

Exactly. So it boils down to RP and what YOU want just as for me it boils down to what I want. We rationalize it. I would kill him even if it wasn't required after he tried to kill Alistair's lineage. But there is that manipulation which I find to be problematic with the whole landsmeet because it's what people want for their outcomes and what is required. If I RP that I had a fling with Alistair and am ready to move on then I still wouldn't spare Loghain because he's not that different from Howe in his actions and was in league with him... eamon poisoned, my family murdered all just before ostagar.... all very suspiciously shifting the tides in Loghain's favor with Howe backing him, Eamon dead, Cailan dead....

 

If you want to marry anora, I can see how you would let him live. You don't get that ending unless he lives. I see a mad general who tried to kill all those connected to the monarchy by blood then shift power in his favor using Howe as his puppet. If I was a male, I don't know that I would want to sit at Anora's right hand with him alive given what he just did. But then again, if he takes that final blow, no loss, right? But again, this is all jerry rigging by the game's design. As players, we have to manipulate the whole thing to get the outcome we prefer for that character which is fine but it feels like it's all so forced and guided. Chess pieces rather than role playing. Who dies or lives so I can be queen or marry anora?



#130
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I don't remember that bit. Could you clarify?

 

The whole Ishal thing didn't wash somehow. You battle your way to the top without any clear idea how much time you have left, then you light the beacon without having received a signal, and then you are supposedly overwhelmed by a handful of grunts whom you would have nuked in two seconds flat even if they had managed to surprise you.

 

I think there never was supposed to be a signal. Loghain is mad that you are chosen to do it. His men were supposed to do it ... or not.



#131
Mike3207

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I don't remember that bit. Could you clarify?

 

The whole Ishal thing didn't wash somehow. You battle your way to the top without any clear idea how much time you have left, then you light the beacon without having received a signal, and then you are supposedly overwhelmed by a handful of grunts whom you would have nuked in two seconds flat even if they had managed to surprise you.

After you kill the ogre, but before you light the signal, Alistair yells that the signal is late, you have to light the signal. I think canon is you're 3 hours late in lighting the signal.



#132
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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I think there never was supposed to be a signal. Loghain is mad that you are chosen to do it. His men were supposed to do it ... or not.

Well, yeah. He wanted an excuse not to charge if he concluded that said charge would be throwing salvageable lives after lost. But both Word of Gaider and common sense state that Loghain wouldn't try to weaponize the darkspawn.



#133
teh DRUMPf!!

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 *Almost missed this post...
 

Face it, buddy. We're ALL biased. We can only see the world only from our own perspectives and thus can only be subjective. You're no different. You're just as biased and subjective as you accuse others of being, you've just deluded yourself into thinking you're Right.
 
Your view and your character's view of Duncan and the Grey Wardens is just as biased as Alistair's because you're coming from different life experiences and perspectives, yet you think yourself less biased, less subjective, and more clear-thinking just because your life experiences that formed your opinions are somehow Right and Normal while his are not?

 

"Bias" and "subjectivity" are two different things. Not all subjective opinion = bias.
 
I have my own subjective opinion about the Wardens, sure. I do not have any biases against them. I mean, I may have RP'd my character to feel bitter about going, but I don't truly empathize with him from where I'm sitting. It's just more fun for me if my PC is railroaded into fighting the bad guys. I do, OTOH, have some biases in favor of them: I am required to play as one in DA:O, and it's human nature to place greater value on things which are "yours," but I'd say this one is rather negligible and I'm pretty neutral on them for the most part.

 

So YES, on the topic of the Grey Wardens, I'm definitely more unbiased than Alistair. I'd be hard pressed to think of anyone more biased.

 

How narcissistic of you to see nothing wrong with belittling the experiences of others because it doesn't line up with Your experiences and worldviews. Because, of course, you are Right, you see things Clearly, and you Get It. Everyone else? Oh, they're just biased and not thinking clearly. If only they experienced what You experienced in life, saw what You saw, and think how You think. Then they would have the One Corrrect Way of seeing and perceiving because they saw it Your Way... wait, what?
 
Maybe Alistair sees nothing wrong with comparing the two because that's actually the way he feels.

 

Let's be clear: I have no problem with Alistair mourning the loss of those who were close to him. I just feel like he needs to come down to Earth about the Grey Wardens. They're an organization, committed to one goal and welcomes anyone that can help them achieve it. So Alistair seeing them as "family" is a problem, evidenced by the fact that he'll renege his duty if you conscript any perfectly good combatant that he doesn't happen to want "as a brother" [sic].

If he learns to stand up for himself, though, and not trust others to do so on his behalf (as no one but a parent would), it will save his life in this scenario (where were Alistair's friends, then? Not like any party member fought for him).

 

 

Why? People are emotionally, psychologically, and socially capable of forming close familial bonds with others not related by blood. "Sometimes family is who you love and who's there for you, not just who you're related to," and all that fluffy stuff. That's why adoption and fostering exists.

Pft! That you think that just goes to show how out-of-touch you are with reality and the things countless people experience every day.
 
So, according to you, people are emotionally and psychologically incapable of forming familial attachments unless they're biologically create someone or are created by someone, and are therefor required to trigger emotional attachments in the brain--unless there's something seriously wrong with them to form attachments with someone not they did not create or were not created by. Friendships, adoptions, surrogate families, etc? There's no real love or attachment between anyone unless one sprang from loins of another. Unless someone carries your genetic makeup, you are emotionally and psychologically incapable of forming any bonds--and those that think they do are just damaged and deluding themselves.
 
I think you placed WAY too much value on biological parent/children and WAY too little on the bonds, friendships, attachments of... virtually every other kind of human relationship. Take half of the reverence you place on biological parent/children relationships, put it toward those of every other emotional bond ever made by every type of person (grandparent/grandchild, sibling, friends, romantic, surrogate filial, etc) and I think you'll be closer to the spectrum of actual human emotions.

How it is that you can be idealistic and misanthropic at the same time? You say that parents are the only ones that truly give a **** about you "unless they're broken individuals." I can turn that around and say maybe the people who can only give a **** about someone if they're their genetic offspring are the ones who're "broken individuals." I mean, how emotionally bankrupt do you have to be to be incapable of caring about someone unless they carry your genetic makeup, and thus you only REALLY care about them because they're an extension of yourself? (Which, when you think about it, means that, by your definition, parents aren't "the only people in the world that give two shits about you... without some strings attached," because there are strings attached. They want you to live and succeed because you are an extension of themselves, and seeing to it that you thrive means they thrive by extension.)
 
At any rate, we see biological parent and child relationships that mean squat in the game. We see in the game that Alistair doesn't have a deep personal relationship with his blood family because none of them ever acted like a family. He could have been fathered by a stable hand for all the shits Maric gave him. His brother could have been Connor instead of Cailan for how much time they spent together. Flemeth was all Morrigan had growing up and it's never made clear whether they're biologically related (though Maric's run-in with Flemeth in one of the books implies it could be the case), regardless, both are willing to use, cast off and kill each other to get what they want. Biological or not, they have all the love of cannibalistic spiders being willing to eat their own.

 

-- Your friends have to like you, and you need to be a friend to them in return.
-- Your lover needs to be attracted to you, and you need to reciprocate those feelings.
-- Your bosses (what Duncan is to Alistair) need to get some production out of you, and you get things from them in return.

You can lack all those things to your parents (liking, beauty, work)... and they'll still love you!!

I did think of adoptive parents myself when I was writing that post. Here's the thing, though: they see their adopted as "their" children, even if they are biologically not. What sets them apart from all the other children in the world other than that? Nothing. It's because you're their child that they love you (though if they also have biological children, and all things are equal, I can tell you right now who they love more), which is kind of my point.

 

Is Duncan equivalent to an adoptive parent to Alistair? It's possible. However, I highly doubt it (as I explain at the bottom). And on the topic of fluff, here's one for you: "Blood is thicker than water" (though admittedly, I don't care much for adages -- they're not always accurate).

 

Lastly, Flemeth is anything but the norm when it comes to parents, or humans in general. She's an abomination at best, something even more frightening at worst. As for Maric, I think giving away his child was more difficult for him than one may think, and it may have truly been the best for Alistair. Isolde disdained him for the mere thought he may have been Eamon's bastard, how do you think Rowan would have handled it?

 

And you think Alistair is the one that has something wrong with him because he doesn't form emotional attachments exclusively with his biological parents (at the exclusion of all other people) even though his life experiences taught him that (contrary to Your life experiences) parents are NOT "the only ones that give two shits about you" because his only known biological parent never gave two shits about him?

 

No, I get him forming an attachment to someone, I just think he's naiive and lacking a sense of scale. Here's what it comes down to, for me: if Alistair couldn't be conscripted, would Duncan still care so much? I rather doubt Al would have ever seen him again, in that event.

 

Truth hurts, sometimes, but it's better to live with your eyes open.



#134
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Ah then you are the perfect person to ask this... I was going to play a rogue for a first time but I'm not sure I would like it much. I never really actively control my rogues. How is it for gameplay? I was thinking dual would be fun. I loved it in skyrim but that was much different with stealth very prominent. Could you compare the two? I'm not huge on always using the abilities unless I'm a mage where it's a must. I've read that you do have to micro manage a bit. Is that so?

 

Rogues and mages are the best for player controlled gameplay imo. Especially a backstabber, since you have to position yourself to get the best results (going head to head works great too, especially with Duelist). This is something that can't be done with auto Tactics, so it's some incentive for the player to be a rogue, I think.



#135
DarthGizka

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After you kill the ogre, but before you light the signal, Alistair yells that the signal is late, you have to light the signal. I think canon is you're 3 hours late in lighting the signal.

 

Thanks, found it. After you drop the ogre, Alistair says from wherever he is standing:

 

"The beacon is over here! We've surely missed the signal... let's light it quickly before it's too late!"

 

He says it again when you try to talk to him.

 

So presumably we were to watch out for a signal from up there, which we couldn't because we were slowed down by some squatters. However, getting from the meeting to the beacon doesn't take more than an hour or so, even if you take your time. So how could we have been three hours late? That sounds exactly like something that Gaider would think up.

 

In the toolset I counted 9 alphas and about 30 grunts. That would have been a memorable fight, but still winnable because the stairs make a perfect choke point. Of course, the thousands of darkspawn outside might have been a bit of a problem...

 

After reviewing the evidence I'm inclined towards the conspiracy theory, whereby Loghain knew that the tower was compromised and that he banked on the beacon not getting lit.



#136
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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If memory serves, Duncan's exact words are "less than an hour." Whether or not this took three hours (which is credible, since if memory serves the Tower is a lot bigger on the outside than the floors you explore would indicate) I can well believe it took more than "less than an hour." And this is assuming that the plan wasn't completely borked by the darkspawn column that stretches as far as the eye can see anyway.



#137
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After reviewing the evidence I'm inclined towards the conspiracy theory, whereby Loghain knew that the tower was compromised and that he banked on the beacon not getting lit.

 

Bet your ass loghain knew. It's even stated by one of the characters... can't remember if it was the soldier you meet when you are lighting the beacon or someone at camp - will have to wander around and have some conversations to see - but it is very clear that he know about the hole, he kept his men there and looks pretty pissed to see the beacon lit. Not sure if he expected they would get killed or if they were never told to light it. But he is also not happy about the wardens being sent to light it. And interstingly enough, he believes there are no survivors even though two were not on the battlefield and managed to light the beacon. Why would he presume those two were dead unless he knew the tower was no safe at all. There is no logic there unless he's thinking they'd never make it out of ostagar because the would be surrounded or something, which seems not likely as the tower is our entrance point, isn't it? It's the fringe of Ostagar and seemingly the safer end. It's where we are when we arrive and seems safe at the time. It's that hole in the tower that is of issue (much like the hole in the basement of the Vigil Keep in Awakening).

 

So yes, it's very suspicious and seems like a plot. Add in that Eamon is poisoned BEFORE ostagar, Howe (who is in league with Loghain) kills off the Couslands before ostagar and things are looking quite like there is a conspiracy and something sinister is afoot. Separately one might not think about them and the connection, but looking at the whole.... Three points of power that were in his way were going to be out of the picture.... Cailin, Eamon, and the Couslands (Cousland and son were going to Ostagar, and would have bared witness to the whole thing, presuming they both survived, and would be a powerful voice against the actions Loghain took as it seems they are similar to Eamon based on the opening for that story).



#138
DarthGizka

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If memory serves, Duncan's exact words are "less than an hour." Whether or not this took three hours (which is credible, since if memory serves the Tower is a lot bigger on the outside than the floors you explore would indicate) I can well believe it took more than "less than an hour." And this is assuming that the plan wasn't completely borked by the darkspawn column that stretches as far as the eye can see anyway.

 

Yep. Drew blanks in a couple of convo histories I checked but found it in the toolset:

 

Warden: How much time do we have?

Duncan: The battle is about to begin. Once I leave, move quickly. You'll have less than an hour.

 

You guys are fabulous. We'll piece this together yet...

 

As regards the visuals: I think those are made purely for dramatic effect and even less reliable than other clues.



#139
Mike3207

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The soldier guarding the Tower of ishal tells you that they've found some lower chambers, but that they're not sure how far down they go.He also says he didn't notice anything like that when he was down there. There's no evidence that darkspawn were discovered in the tower before the battle or that Loghain knew anything about any of this.

 

EDit-Loghain does know about the chambers, because he does close the Tower off before the battle-my bad.We know that Loghain closed the tower, but it's inferred he does it because of the chambers. 

 

I don't think we know for sure when Eamon was poisoned.



#140
DarthGizka

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@starlitegirlx: it was also at Ostagar that Loghain hatched his little plot with Uldred.



#141
DarthGizka

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I don't think we know for sure when Eamon was poisoned.

 

In another topic we looked at the timing of that. It being post-Ostagar just wouldn't work, which sort of separates the Jowan story from the Uldred thing.



#142
Mike3207

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In another topic we looked at the timing of that. It being post-Ostagar just wouldn't work, which sort of separates the Jowan story from the Uldred thing.

He wouldn't have met Jowan at Ostagar. It would have had to have been on the road somewhere while he was moving his army after Ostagar.



#143
sylvanaerie

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He wouldn't have met Jowan at Ostagar. It would have had to have been on the road somewhere while he was moving his army after Ostagar.

Timeline is all screwed up but Jowan says he was taken to Denerim and Loghain spoke to him there.  Seems like a lot of traveling for him to be caught near Redcliffe, sent ALL the way to Denerim to speak to Loghain then sent all the way back to Redcliffe.  But then, the continuity on this game is a whackadoo prospect at best sometimes.


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#144
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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He wouldn't have met Jowan at Ostagar. It would have had to have been on the road somewhere while he was moving his army after Ostagar.

Eamon was already flagging at the time of Ostagar. Gaider's explanation for this (I know Gizka hates it when I invoke these, but I think it really is the only one that works) is that Duncan snailed his lazy way to Ostagar from the Tower, and that Loghain had time to recruit Jowan and send him to Eamon before the battle.


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#145
DarthGizka

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Perhaps it would be interesting to make a topic for this, to collect all the timeline/conspiracy evidence that we unearth as we travel Ferelden or dig through the toolset...



#146
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@starlitegirlx: it was also at Ostagar that Loghain hatched his little plot with Uldred.

 

I never really paid attention to this part. I think I missed it entirely. What was his plan?

 

 

 

 

In another topic we looked at the timing of that. It being post-Ostagar just wouldn't work, which sort of separates the Jowan story from the Uldred thing.

 

Jowan had to be pre Ostagar probably just after he escapes the tower. Timing on some things in the story are not clearly thought out by the writers beyond certain things were done at certain times. While I don't doubt that Loghain was behind the poisoning given everything else we already know, this was kind of lazily written because Eamon was poisoned before everything else, possibly even Howe's attack on the Couslands. Jowan poisons him whether you are a mage or not. All beginnings take place just not for you the player. So when did Jowan have the time to meet him after this escape? How many days was it? That was very fast for him to suddenly have this meeting unless Jowan was seeking some kind of redemption. Ser Donnelly clarifies Eamon was in fact sick first, so I guess we were at Ostagar longer (plus travel time to get there - rather than a few days, maybe more like a week). Cailan has been there for a bit but we don't know how long Uldred has nor do we know how long Loghain has. I'm wondering if Uldred could have pointed Loghain toward Jowan since it seems they grab him from the Templars (from the templar in the dungeon). They put all the pieces together but the timeline was a bit weak it seems.

 

 

He wouldn't have met Jowan at Ostagar. It would have had to have been on the road somewhere while he was moving his army after Ostagar.

 

I think the templars caught Jowan (remember the one in the dungeon.... it is clarified that this was Jowan if you ask) but then he is taken, isn't he? The templar is captured and thrown in the dungeon so he doesn't talk and Jowan gets sent to Loghain or Loghain meets with him. I wonder how he learned of Jowan. Through Uldred maybe? Perhaps they communicated pre ostagar? Or one of the templars talked?



#147
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Perhaps it would be interesting to make a topic for this, to collect all the timeline/conspiracy evidence that we unearth as we travel Ferelden or dig through the toolset...

 

DO IT!!! would be a lot of fun!



#148
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I think some of Loghain's ideas are spot on, but he goes about all of it in the wrong away.. and he's kind of a man before his time. He wants to loose restrictions on the Circle, he wants to work with Tevinter, he wants to unseat nobles and dismisses people like Eamon and "heirs" to the throne as mere traditionalism. And he's right, in our own modern democratic perspective. Monarchies and aristocacies are lame. In this sense, he's kind of like Oliver Cromwell. Another man before his time.



#149
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I think some of Loghain's ideas are spot on, but he goes about all of it in the wrong away.. and he's kind of a man before his time. He wants to loose restrictions on the Circle, he wants to work with Tevinter, he wants to unseat nobles and dismisses people like Eamon and "heirs" to the throne as mere traditionalism. And he's right, in our own modern democratic perspective. Monarchies and aristocacies are lame. In this sense, he's kind of like Oliver Cromwell. Another man before his time.

 

For all my dislike of Loghain regarding how he goes about it, I kind of love him for all this. He really was a man ahead of his time. If only they hadn't made the landsmeet such a big deal, if they hadn't made that such a centerpiece and wrote things differently, we could have seen a different loghain, one that based on this could have really done wonders. I wish that Loghain was in my game. I like when I just love the characters... like nathaniel. He's my favorite of all of them. I wish he had been romance option and I wish he was in a full game rather than just awakening. He was a great character.... truly wasted with so little time given to him. He deserved to be in a full game.



#150
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For all my dislike of Loghain regarding how he goes about it, I kind of love him for all this. He really was a man ahead of his time. If only they hadn't made the landsmeet such a big deal, if they hadn't made that such a centerpiece and wrote things differently, we could have seen a different loghain, one that based on this could have really done wonders. I wish that Loghain was in my game. I like when I just love the characters... like nathaniel. He's my favorite of all of them. I wish he had been romance option and I wish he was in a full game rather than just awakening. He was a great character.... truly wasted with so little time given to him. He deserved to be in a full game.

 

Agreed. I kind of feel the same way about all of the Awakenings characters. Except Justice and Anders, funnily. And yet those two get the big parts and followup.