321 réponses à ce sujet

[congokong]

The big conflict my Dalish Elf Pocahontas has with Alistair is his fondness for Duncan. I've only played the mage, dalish, and human noble origins but the dalish origin is one where Duncan comes across as a greater-good opportunist. Pocahontas gets sick with the taint and he proceeds to destroy the mirror that the keeper could have used to make a cure. Sure, it was a threat but I suspect it was also a form of entrapment to get her to join the Wardens. After that he forces the right of conscription on her, making her leave a life she was content with and clan she loved to work with humans who despised her people. To top it all off, Alistair later tells her that the taint is a death sentence and she has 30 years at best. So Pocohantas hates Duncan, a man who ruined her life for the greater good, even if she understands why. This created heated discussions with Alistair because of his warped father figure view of the man.

 

So in conclusion, it depends on the character just how likable Alistair is.

[Ryzaki]

Agreed. One of my mages (who sold out Jowan) was not pleased to here Duncan go "nope you're coming with me." he talked badly about the man anytime he got and Alistair's pouting didn't phase him. Alistair still made him chancellor and pretty much handed the country over to him so there was that XD

[congokong]

I think some of Loghain's ideas are spot on, but he goes about all of it in the wrong away.. and he's kind of a man before his time. He wants to loose restrictions on the Circle, he wants to work with Tevinter, he wants to unseat nobles and dismisses people like Eamon and "heirs" to the throne as mere traditionalism. And he's right, in our own modern democratic perspective. Monarchies and aristocacies are lame. In this sense, he's kind of like Oliver Cromwell. Another man before his time.

My analysis of Loghain is that he is a skeptic with good reason. The problem was that he was too skeptical about the Grey Wardens' abilities to the point that he made the mistake of abandoning the king. This led to a chain of events where he continued to commit further atrocities for self preservation as well as what he believed was the greater good. His skepticism of the Wardens became false certainty that they were not needed.

 

As for King Cailan, there's an expression that suits him well. "Even a broken clock is right twice a day." This is what happened at Ostagar. The king was a fool but he was right regarding his confidence in the Grey Wardens; just not for the reasons an intelligent person would be.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

My analysis of Loghain is that he is a skeptic with good reason. The problem was that he was too skeptical about the Grey Wardens' abilities to the point that he made the mistake of abandoning the king. This led to a chain of events where he continued to commit further atrocities for self preservation as well as what he believed was the greater good. His skepticism of the Wardens became false certainty that they were not needed.

 

As for King Cailan, there's an expression that suits him well. "Even a broken clock is right twice a day." This is what happened at Ostagar. The king was a fool but he was right regarding his confidence in the Grey Wardens; just not for the reasons an intelligent person would be.

While Loghain wrongly skeptical about the Wardens' abilities, Cailan wasn't right either. Cailan figured the plan would work simply because there were Wardens fighting alongside him. This backfired, and placed Loghain in the rather awkward position of believing (either correctly or at least with reason) that there was nothing he could do to save Cailan. (Or the not so awkward position, if Loghain was actually planning to do that anyway.)

[congokong]

While Loghain wrongly skeptical about the Wardens' abilities, Cailan wasn't right either. Cailan figured the plan would work simply because there were Wardens fighting alongside him. This backfired, and placed Loghain in the rather awkward position of believing (either correctly or at least with reason) that there was nothing he could do to save Cailan. (Or the not so awkward position, if Loghain was actually planning to do that anyway.)

We don't know if the plan would've worked had Loghain done his job. Duncan told the king it would (perhaps falsely) despite wanting to wait for reinforcements.

 

Why'd Loghain retreat? I don't know. Was it because the plan was doomed to failure? Was it because he underestimated the Grey Wardens?

[Jaison1986]

That's one reason I want Loghain to live: So he can know both he and Cailan are wrong. That Wardens have nothing to do with glory or skill. Even our own Wardens don't know the extent of it, until both you and Loghain both find out what it takes to kill an archdemon.

 

Otherwise, I think his motivations are in the right place. He's a realist. He hates all of the stupid "legend" and "hero" crap, and relies on simplicity. "Lets us attend to reality." He's a self-made man, a farmer turned Teryn, and has built his army out of likeminded individuals, like Ser Cautrian. They all rely on merit. Not nobility, not legends, etc.. I understand why he's annoyed.

 

I gotta agree. Were the other leaders like Cailan and Duncan capable and honest men who were doing everything right and got the odds at their side, I would have executed Loghain for his betrayal. But the thing is they were not. Cailan was an weak and reckless leader who never thought things through, while Duncan over the top secrecy ended up screwing the order (would Loghain really leave the wardens if he knew their true importance?) so I don't blame Loghain for leaving them to their fates, considering they pretty much sealed it themselves.

[congokong]

Agreed. One of my mages (who sold out Jowan) was not pleased to here Duncan go "nope you're coming with me." he talked badly about the man anytime he got and Alistair's pouting didn't phase him. Alistair still made him chancellor and pretty much handed the country over to him so there was that XD

I could never bring myself to betray Jowan. Even if I knew he was a blood mage I still wouldn't sell him out. I'd just not help him escape ...maybe. It depends on how I feel about blood magic I guess.

 

Jowan is a tragic character though. He's put into tough situations several times and he always is on the losing side. He's taken from his home as a child to be locked in a tower. Then he learns he's going to be made tranquil for experimenting with blood magic. Granted, it was stupid to bother considering the risks but it's not like he left bodies laying around the tower. Tranquility is a cruel punishment.

 

Once freed he's again put into a hard position. He's offered redemption by Loghain, a very respected man, by poisoning Arl Eamon who is told to be a threat to the realm. Jowan thought he was helping the realm as well as himself. Again, he was on the losing side.

 

My mage could never betray him initially and even offers him a second chance by releasing him from his cell on the condition that he joins her. Jowan refuses. For my Warden that was his last chance and after that she doesn't intervene when he gets sentenced to execution.

[Cobra's_back]

One of my favorite Loghain lines is when you say "You cost me Alistair."

 

"You'll thank me for that."

 

Whether he himself means something disparaging against Alistair or not, I think the writers are giving you a wink there. Loghain is your one chance to save you and Alistair from the demand of the Wardens and the schemes of Flemeth. And all it costs is not be vengeful, for once. I think the story ultimately will punish the vengeful, one way or another. Whether by the ultimate sacrifice or some clusterf*ck that comes from the Dark Ritual eventually.

 

Vengeful has nothing to do with it. If we believe that some people should be above the law and have a right to take the rights of others away than Loghain is your man. He is a tyrant.

 

He thinks he has the right to sell citizens and yes they are citizens. Ferelden was not a place that supported slavery even in the case of second class citizens. In Ferelden a man can get hanged for deserting. We learn that in the beginning of the game. Our friend Loghain is above the law. He poisons another man and feels this is not a crime. He had to do it for the better of Ferelden. He kidnaps a Templar and puts the guy in prison but forgets to notify the Templars or the Chantry. This he did in the interest of Ferelden. He is nothing more than a would be tyrant. Removing him is not being vengeful. You have the data proving his crimes. It was an execution of a tyrant and a warning for any new would be tyrants. 

 

Ferelden is the only place I somewhat like in Thedas. The Tevinter Imperium is a free for all where slaves are drained of their blood so their masters can duel with another blood mage.

 

Orlais is a place where nobles do whatever they want because they are better than the common man. Making Loghain answer for his crimes tell the people of Ferelden that no one is above the law. 

 

I always execute Loghain because I want the people to feel that nobles should not be above the law.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He's not a noble. He's Mac Tir ("son of the land"). Man of the people, lifted up to the level of nobles.

He is a person who was given a title. That makes him a noble, despite the fact that he didn't start at that level.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Not quite. Loghain's does not rival that of any noble in the Landsmeet. It surpasses every noble status except that of the Couslands (which I suppose helps your point that taking them out makes sense) and later Howe (de facto due to his seizure of the Couslands' fief.) Loghain is the lord of Gwaren. That makes him second to the king (who as far as Loghain knows his daughter controls anyway, which I think makes Loghain less likely to pull the plot you're accusing him of) equal to the sitting lord of Highever, and higher on the food chain than literally everyone else.

[Cobra's_back]

During the rebellion against Orlais, the Couslands opposed the Orlesian rule. However, Arl Tarleton Howe of Amaranthine supported the Orlesians and this resulted in several bitter battles between Amaranthine and Highever. Eventually the Couslands manage to capture Harper's Ford and hang Tarleton Howe for his treachery.

 

Unlike his father, Rendon Howe, was part of the rebellion like his uncle Arl Byron Howe. Rendon and Bryce Cousland fought beside each other at the battle of White River, becoming two of the fifty rebels who survived the defeat. Thereafter, Arl Rendon Howe was a great friend of the Couslands.

 

I just played a Cousland and there really isn't any mention that they supported the Orlesians.

[Cobra's_back]

Some history:

 

Arl Tarleton Howe, who was almost ninety years old and described as sharp and bitter, sided with Orlais during the occupation of Ferelden, however the Cousland family ruling the neighbouring Highever openly supported the rebellion.[2] He fought several bitter battles against the Couslands, but in the end they managed to capture the town of Harper's Ford as well as Tarleton. Arl Tarleton was subsequently hanged.

 

Arl Byron Howe of Amaranthine, a much younger brother of Tarleton, became the new Arl of Amaranthine. Unlike his brother, he bent knee to Prince Maric Theirin and helped him to reclaim his throne. He died during the rebellion.

 

Like his uncle Byron, the young Rendon Howe also sided with rebels of Prince Maric. Once the war was won, Rendon was decorated for his service by King Maric, and was made Arl of Amaranthine. The Howes were hailed as heroes, and Arl Howe became close friends with Teyrn Bryce Cousland of Highever.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So he has a great deal of power with the king dead, and he has removed all that might even cause any kind of problem as well, like the couslands and eamon... or he attempts to do so. Seems that is a plot to me. I know people refuse to see it, but Couslands are gone. Eamon was supposed to be gone. Those voices are the ones that would have challenged or do challenge him. Howe is on his side. He's aiming to have them all submit so to avoid civil war. Each has armies behind them, don't they? Or some kind of forces. Redcliffe did. Couslands did until they were slaughtered. Those men were supposed to go to ostagar, weren't they? With a small force left behind I think which is why pup was running things. It is a plot. It's made very clear in different areas as you learn different things. He was very strategic about it as a general of his stature would be. He removed all those that might present problems. Eamon was a threat by his own admission yet Eamon hadn't even done anything yet because Ostagar hadn't even happened. So it was a preemptive strike. That realy is a plot or conspiracy if you ask me. It's scattered all over the story... you learn pieces here and there and the puzzle comes together. It's very deliberately done and we are meant to see what he has been up to before ostagar. Playing a Cousland really seals the deal because you might miss how important that aspect is. But we are given Jowan, the couslands, prisoners in Howe's dungeon... all of them telling their part in his plan... It was very strategic, some of it taking place before Ostagar so there is no way to just dismiss these actions. He committed atrocities against people who did him no harm and likely thought quite highly of him all to keep civil war from happening. And that the knew it could happen shows that he knew what he was going to do was wrong no matter how anyone justifies it. He was just too arrogant. He felt he knew what was best. Innocents died at his hand because of this.

It's not so much "refuse to see it" as "not the head writer's take on this". This is a legitimate interpretation that doesn't require any established facts to be ignored, but it's not what the head writer had in mind and wasn't deliberately done. (Unless it was behind Gaider's back.) You'll find the interpretation I'm supporting spelled out here, albeit with a few fewer accusations of laziness directed towards Duncan's leisurely pace towards Ostagar. (Freaking snail.)

 

Also, I think you missed what I was trying to get across when I described the power Loghain already had: so far as Loghain knows, he's already got all the influence he needs. Cailan lets his wife do all the actual ruling, and we see how easily Loghain can get Anora to defer to him. Except in the context of Cailan's divorce plans, (and again, it's made pretty clear Loghain is surprised about this when he learns of it) there's not that much reason for Loghain to want to take the throne. And there's a lot of reason why he wouldn't want to rock the boat, since even if he doesn't get caught in anything treasonous and executed for it his daughter has no blood claim to the throne and would be in danger of being deposed if Cailan died.* (There is that little detail with the Orlesian assistance forces, but Loghain has no reason [yet] to think he and Anora can't talk Cailan out of it.)

 

* Also, if Loghain did get caught Anora might be in trouble. Thedasian justice seems to accept corruption of the blood, judging by what happened to the Howes after Rendon died.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I think the writers clearly put all the information in there and then were half assed with timelines and such to either give rise to debate (cheap tactic) or because they suck at their job with regards to this sort of thing. In fact, after reading that, it really pisses me off that they would waste our time with all these things if it doesn't end up making sense and is meant to just be a bunch of red herrings. Either way, I kill loghain because I hate his screaming madness.

I remember the devs saying that Loghain was always meant to be someone you could justifiably kill, regardless of his reasons for Ostagar. So, you might find that comforting.

[Mike3207]

nm-off topic.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

nm-off topic.

Go ahead and repost. We're not even bothering to stay on topic on this thread anymore.