321 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthGizka]

That question was answered by eluvianix on page 4...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That question was answered by eluvianix on page 4...

I think "Massive Constitution" would have been a better double-entendre.

[Mike3207]

Well, originally I was going to raise the point that Jowan isn't exactly the ideal witness to testify about Loghain. He's a blood mage who has lied before after all. Word of God is that Loghain's poisoning was not intended to kill Eamon anyway, and that there is corroboration from the imprisoned Templar later on about Jowans capture by Loghain. Overall, I just think the whole Redcliffe story seems a bit off. Howe sends a elven archer to watch things at the same time Loghain is supposed to be poisoning the Arl.Not saying I disbelieve the idea of Loghain poisoning Eamon, I just think the writing was a bit sloppy there.

[Jaison1986]

It is known fact here that every Alistair thread turns into an Loghain thread, while every Loghain thread turns into an Alistair thread. And from time to time a few of them even morph into Anders threads. 

[KaiserShep]

I'd kill him even it he wasn't someone I could justifiably kill based on game information. I think I just don't like that there are all these things that point in that direction and then other things that if you are an ultra geek reading every little detail on the matter then certain tidbits are buried in there. Or if you buy the books you get different information or new information as was the case with ME series. I always found that kind of annoying because I sign on for the game and all the details should be presented in game via dialogue. Having to read ever codex to put it all together which I've seen before, is grating. Some people love that stuff. But I'm playing the game not reading a book. So it bugs me to have information presented in game that is misleading red herring crap intentionally placed there by the writers.

 

This is why I ignore any and all material outside of the game when I make decisions for the protagonist. I love reading codex entries (some of the time) and like to get as much info as I can for my own benefit, but I refuse to let it taint the viewpoint of a character that would likely not be privy to all this stuff.

[theskymoves]

It is known fact here that every Alistair thread turns into an Loghain thread, while every Loghain thread turns into an Alistair thread. And from time to time a few of them even morph into Anders threads. 

Truer words have never been spoken, err, typed.

[Cobra's_back]

You can’t just look at one piece of evidence. You have to look at the collective. Loghain has already proven himself to lie on several occasions. The decision on the player's part should be made as kaisershep stated in game with the information given. You can visit Howe little shop of horrors and you can listen and hear about all the things Loghain is involved in. 

[Cobra's_back]

The Couslands were Howe's doing, I think. And it was because Bryce was relaying deals for Cailan with the Orlesians. In a certain light, I can see why it pissed Howe off, and how it might've planted a seed in an already paranoid Loghain. With the information they have, they think Couslands are betraying Ferelden to Orlais. Killing the Couslands is more than just a political "plot". To them, it's patriotism. Punishment for perceived treason. This kind of sentiment can go out of control real fast.

 

Where was this? I didn't see this anywhere in the game.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You can’t just look at one piece of evidence. You have to look at the collective. Loghain has already proven himself to lie on several occasions. The decision on the player's part should be made as kaisershep stated in game with the information given. You can visit Howe little shop of horrors and you can listen and hear about all the things Loghain is involved in. 

We don't really have any proof that Loghain was directly involved in anything except Jowan and Caladrius, though. (Though I'm not denying that that's bad enough.)

[Cobra's_back]

We don't really have any proof that Loghain was directly involved in anything except Jowan and Caladrius, though. (Though I'm not denying that that's bad enough.)

 

The above Jowan and Caladrius is bad enough, but we also know he lied about the Warden's involvement in the King's death. I can say that Loghain is willing to lie and have an innocent person be executed. The warden was innocent. It states something about this man's character.

[Mike3207]

The above Jowan and Caladrius is bad enough, but we also know he lied about the Warden's involvement in the King's death. I can say that Loghain is willing to lie and have an innocent person be executed. The warden was innocent. It states something about this man's character.

We don't know that Loghain didn't believe the Warden played a role in Cailans' death. Loghain is very suspicious of wardens and it's very believable he did think they played a role in the King's death.

[Cobra's_back]

We don't know that Loghain didn't believe the Warden played a role in Cailans' death. Loghain is very suspicious of wardens and it's very believable he did think they played a role in the King's death.

 

It is not believable. Where is the proof? The two he is trying to kill he met in Ostagar. They were the ones who lit the torch. Again, I need hardcore evidence. Caladrius gives you documents. The Templar tells you he was captured. You have the Templar and Jowan. There is enough to convict this guy easy. if you don't believe the blood mage, that is okay. However we have the blood mage and the Templar supporting part of Jowan's story. Loghain imprisoned the Templar without notifying the Templars or the Chantry and freed Jowan. What was his motive for freeing Jowan?? The pieces could be put together. 

 

There is no evidence that the Wardens tried to get the king killed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It is not believable. Where is the proof? The two he is trying to kill he met in Ostagar. They were the ones who lit the torch. Again, I need hardcore evidence. Caladrius gives you documents. The Templar tells you he was captured. You have the Templar and Jowan. There is enough to convict this guy easy. if you don't believe the blood mage, that is okay. However we have the blood mage and the Templar supporting part of Jowan's story. Loghain imprisoned the Templar without notifying the Templars or the Chantry and freed Jowan. What was his motive for freeing Jowan?? The pieces could be put together. 

 

There is no evidence that the Wardens tried to get the king killed.

We've already conceded Caladrius and Jowan. There's no need to raise them any more.

 

As for Loghain believing that the Wardens were responsible for Ostagar, we're not arguing proof. We're arguing plausibility. Consider this: Loghain knows that the Wardens are in the Tower. He knows they're the only men in there that don't answer directly to him. It is entirely plausible, if he hasn't torpedo'd the beacon personally (and either possibility there is plausible, I suppose) that Loghain will conclude the men he doesn't control did so.

[Cobra's_back]

"As for Loghain believing that the Wardens were responsible for Ostagar, we're not arguing proof. We're arguing plausibility. Consider this: Loghain knows that the Wardens are in the Tower. He knows they're the only men in there that don't answer directly to him. It is entirely plausible, if he hasn't torpedo'd the beacon personally (and either possibility there is plausible, I suppose) that Loghain will conclude the men he doesn't control did so."

 

 

Doesn't make sense to me. He knew you were going to light the beacon. You did and he retreated. The warden followed the orders agreed to at the meeting. Loghain did not. If he didn't want to follow the plan, I would expect him to state differently at the meeting. He agreed to this plan at the meeting by the King's order.

 

There is absolutely no proof or logical reasoning that the warden's were the cause of the king's death. The only real hardcore evidence that we have is that Loghain got the signal from the tower and decided to retreat knowing the King was going to die. I'm not going to give him "plausible" without logical reasoning. Just because they do not report to him directly is not plausible reasoning. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

There is absolutely no proof or logical reasoning that the warden's were the cause of the king's death. The only real hardcore evidence that we have is that Loghain got the signal from the tower and decided to retreat knowing the King was going to die. I'm not going to give him "plausible" without logical reasoning. Just because they do not report to him directly is not plausible reasoning. 

 

That's what I'm trying to give you, yes. I think I might have succeeded if I'd remembered to mention that the plan was already borked by the time you lit the signal. Consider this: the plan requires you to light a signal when it's time for Loghain to charge. You know it's time to light because you see a signal yourself. When you get to the beacon, Alistair tells you to light without your own signal because you've surely missed it. Apparently the WoG is that you've missed it by upwards of two hours. If you don't factor that in (or if I'm mistaken), then for all we know you might have beaten it by upwards of ten minutes. Or the signal Alistair's supposed to watch for might never have happened, because either the darkspawn killed the people giving it or there simply was no right time to charge. (Edit: Word Of God, and the column of spawn stretching from the field to the horizon, point towards that last bit. Don't forget that the final battle at Denerim establishes that conventional military victory isn't happening due to the numbers the horde has.) I don't find it completely implausible that Loghain realizes there was a mistake, and just ditches due to having realized that he'll never receive a properly timed signal now. (You know, the way he spends the entire game claiming even after he A: admits his other mistakes and B: has already been punished for the entire year including Ostagar.)

[Cobra's_back]

"I don't find it completely implausible that Loghain realizes there was a mistake, and just ditches due to having realized that he'll never receive a properly timed signal now. (You know, the way he spends the entire game claiming even after he A: admits his other mistakes and B: has already been punished for the entire year including Ostagar."

 

Riverdalewhiteflash nicely stated and very logical.

 

Thanks for bring this into view. I still could never allow him to hunt down the wardens without firm proof. If we were all guilty until proven innocent then we would have very few people left. He suspects but doesn't have proof that the wardens caused the King's death. What makes the man a tyrant is that he is perfectly fine about not allowing you a jury of your own peers. Someone very strong would be needed to keep this boy in check if at all possible.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

"I don't find it completely implausible that Loghain realizes there was a mistake, and just ditches due to having realized that he'll never receive a properly timed signal now. (You know, the way he spends the entire game claiming even after he A: admits his other mistakes and B: has already been punished for the entire year including Ostagar."

 

Riverdalewhiteflash nicely stated and very logical.

 

Thanks for bring this into view. I still could never allow him to hunt down the wardens without firm proof. If we were all guilty until proven innocent then we would have very few people left. He suspects but doesn't have proof that the wardens caused the King's death. What makes the man a tyrant is that he is perfectly fine about not allowing you a jury of your own peers. Someone very strong would be needed to keep this boy in check if at all possible.

I suspect the game might have ended up differently with a combination of a rational Loghain who decides he wants the Wardens taken for questioning, and a Warden who was rational enough (or really stupid enough) to trust this not to be Howe pulling the same trick that he pulls with his assassins at the Pearl. But going this far off the rails and turning the game into something this different would have been really difficult to pull off from the devs standpoint.

[DarthGizka]

I suspect the game might have ended up differently with a combination of a rational Loghain who decides he wants the Wardens taken for questioning, and a Warden who was rational enough (or really stupid enough) to trust this not to be Howe pulling the same trick that he pulls with his assassins at the Pearl. But going this far off the rails and turning the game into something this different would have been really difficult to pull off from the devs standpoint.

 

In the same vein, I've always wondered what happens if you let Alistair duel Loghain. That option is there, and since Alistair must inevitably lose that duel, the game should do something sensible, no? The Warden and the rest of the team are still standing, so the game cannot simply display the Game Over screen at that point. Do you get a second brawl scene?

[Ryzaki]

It should be a game over in the sense that Alistair's loss means the gods are against your or something and Loghain probably wins and has you all executed.

 

I'd assume so anyway.

[theskymoves]

In the same vein, I've always wondered what happens if you let Alistair duel Loghain. That option is there, and since Alistair must inevitably lose that duel, the game should do something sensible, no? The Warden and the rest of the team are still standing, so the game cannot simply display the Game Over screen at that point. Do you get a second brawl scene?

 

*laughing hysterically* Alistair beats the snot out of Loghain without even breaking a sweat.. 'Tis a thing of beauty and always a joy. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I find that you have been very balanced about this discussion given you lean toward Loghain. In the Loghain thread it got kind of ugly so I moved on.

 

I wouldn't mind not seeing loghain as the villian I do see him as but I think it's a bit maddening to have all these things that point toward that being the case and then have Alistair break if you don't kill him. That this is Alistair's breaking point really sucks if you have played him from the start. So I guess they HAD to put in all these things so you would be prone to do it given he is pretty much the main character in the game aside from you there with you from your first steps in Ostagar as a grey warden. Most people would be pissed if they spared Loghain and lost Alistair but did it because there wasn't enough evidence. Probably the writers should have stayed on the fence rather than have all these things that look very damning but if you look further, they are getting tossed out like Ser Donal who I take as an honorable knight with no reason to lie. Jowan I can see lying except there are two things that don't make sense (outside of the time frame being sketchy) which are that he has no reason to want to kill eamon. And he has even less reason to point to loghain. More strange is that if it is a lie, well, he has no way of knowing what has just transpiried so it is mighty damn convenient that at the same time he aims to poison the Arl is when all this questionable stuff is happening that loghain looks like he is connected to on some level. Jowan being the one that is most strange because why on earth would he lie about loghain and how highly implausible is it that he does it right when it is most believable - even more so that it's such a revered general who until Ostagar nobody had reason to think anything but the best of. Alistair himself has great respect for him if you ask about the battle in Ostagar. He says that it's all about Loghain. He trusts Loghain. He sees him as a man who can and will get the job done.

 

I don't know. I find all this evidence and now I hear that the Couslands were slaughtered because they looked like traitors so it makes Howe, the murderous torturer maniac look like he was some kind of better person. That's hard to swallow especially given what we discover in his dungeons. Dude was nasty at the highest order. His death was truly justified.

Let me start with the obvious: Howe needed to die. Even if the Couslands had to be taken down (and we have only Howe's word for this), Howe went so far above and beyond what the crimes they are accused of would justify that it's not even funny. And that's not to mention the other reasons to kill him, one of which is that Howe doesn't surrender and the Warden kind of sucks at disabling unwilling opponents.

 

Thank you for noting that I try to be balanced. I could only note the good Loghain does, but where's the fun in that? As for the writers staying on the fence, they only take his part as far as Ostagar goes. He does other stuff that they aren't even trying to defend, and while I see his reasons for all of it I can see where you'd get material for an argument that he needs to die. (Again, I don't believe in the death penalty, but I can see that Loghain has arguably earned it if such is possible.)