247 réponses à ce sujet

[NuclearTech76]

Tsol, Hsol, quarksman and destroyer
Krogan soldier > Bat soldier

Nope. 

 

BB>>>>>>Carnage.

 

AOE and CD on Carnage are pretty crappy even though it does make for pretty fireworks with Inferno Nades. 

[ALTBOULI]

Nope. 
 
BB>>>>>>Carnage.
 
AOE and CD on Carnage are pretty crappy even though it does make for pretty fireworks with Inferno Nades.

Disagree, although I prefer the Bat soldier, the krogan can generally output more dps through inferno nades and Carnage. But I use them both as power builds with CSMG as my weapon of choice so the cool down for Carnage isnt that bad

[Zyzimorph]

Inferno grenades are lame. Batarian and Krogan soldiers are boring.

That said Human soldier is my favorite soldier by far.

[lightswitch]

You guys toss around the phrase "game breaking" too lightly. When a game is actually broken, people stop playing it. It dies. It doesn't have an active player base two years after release much less an active community.

Nothing in this game is broken.

[Deerber]

My accusing in lolcolyte use was a mirror response at his "reeger offense".

 

In that case I can't understand his dissing of mentioned 3 weapons platforms. And I can't believe that the only person who (probably) uses Raider TSol more often than me can agree with dat...

 

It has been said already, that GI is the one who brakes errything.

 

Well, I agree up to a certain point. I do think he's probably going a bit over the edge saying that there should be no weapon enhancing power. I am also perfectly fine with them from a lore perspective - it makes perfect sense to me that a trained soldier can concentrate harder and use his weapon better for a short period of time and make it recoil less, hit softer spots, and so on... Accuracy boosts might be an issue there, but I'm okay with the calibration thing, honestly.

 

But he has a point, in that weapon boosting powers should *never* come to the point of being able to completely negate a weapon's weakness.As much as I love the Raider Tsol and enjoy every second of playtime with him, I have to admit that in a game balanced the right way, things like that should not be possible.

 

There are certain characteristics of weapons that should be able to get boosted without limits: damage per bullet, RoF, spare ammo... Lots of them.

 

Others, on the other hand, should be approached more carefully cause they change the way that weapon behaves drastically. While, if I have a Talon that does 200% more damage than another Talon, I'm still using a Talon, if I have a way to improve its accuracy by 100% I'm not firing a Talon anymore: I'm firing a goddamn shieldgate ignoring sniper rifle. Now *that* should not be possible. All the characteristics that drastically change how a weapon behaves should only get the chance to have a slight buff, but nothing weapon-changing. In the case of accuracy, between mods and powers one should be able to gain a 50% bonus if he focuses on that, tops. That would double (I think... Is it even linear?) the effective range of the gun, and would already be a powerful thing... But changing a shotgun that's not supposed to hit the broadside of a praetorian if it's more than 5 mts away into a point-like shieldgate ignoring sniper rifle is... Too much.

 

There are two such characteristics that got oversighted in ME3 I think, meaning that there are ways to push them too far. The first and by far the most important is accuracy. The second, less important because only one kit can boost it too high all the time, is the mag size. Too high, in that case, is when a one shot weapon gets turned into a two shots one. That's another thing that, like accuracy, completely changes the way the weapon behaves, and should not happen ever. Weapons that only have one shot per clip usually do because they're insanely powerful and that clip size is there to balance things out: double it, and you break the gun. Luckily for us, there are only a few ways to do this, and most rely on an active power which cannot be used always. Only the destroyer can do that passively, and only on pistols I think... Which is why this is not that big of an issue in this game. It shouldn't turn into one for ME4, though.

 

Now, let me address the GI issue and tell you why I said that the Raider Tsol is not balanced properly. It is true that the GI is the thing that breaks everything, and it's just stupidly powerful. But it's... Just the tip of the iceberg, really. It's so stupidly powerful that, from the moment it was released, both us bsners and, to an extend, Bioware, felt that pretty much nothing else was broken, because no matter how hard they tried, they never managed to release something more broken.

 

But that's only a trap for our minds: the fact that there is a kit so powerful and broken that none other can be worse doesn't mean that the others that are worse can't be unbalanced as well.

 

If, with a miracle, the next game was balanced properly, and was full with classes such as Tsent, FQE, AA... You know, powerful but not too much. If that was to happen... And if they were to introduce a Raider Tsol into that game, what do you think would happen? I'll tell you what: people would start to whine about it and cry for nerfs. And to be honest, they wouldn't be so wrong about it. A Raider Tsol is heaps and bounds ahead of anything these other kits can come out with. Why? Because it is able to completely negate the one issue of a gun that's balanced by having heavy pros, but a heavy con too. You take that con away, and you have a broken setup. Not as broken as a GI, ok... But it would still alter the balance of a previously balanced game. And so would anything capable of boosting too much certain characteristics of certain weapons.

 

TL;DR: cap the accuracy and mag size boosts to 50% or something.

[Fortack]

I agree with most of what Deerber just said. I have to say, though, that I find it quite amazing how much love there seems to be for stuff like HM, DM and MM. They are basically glorified weapon mods disguised as a "power". You don't even really use them beside a single activation when the mission starts (or hit the MM button whenever available b/c there is hardly any point to bother using the other available abilities).

 

I've yet to hear a single reason for the need to use up (IMO waste) one or more powerslots (there are too few already) for a ... (near) permanent passive weapon mod. I prefer having stuff like Biotic Charge, Ballistic Blades, Overload, Cryo Blast, Stasis - you know, stuff that requires some sort of player involvement - to populate the (active) power section of this game (series).

[Deerber]

I agree with most of what Deerber just said. I have to say, though, that I find it quite amazing how much love there seems to be for stuff like HM, DM and MM. They are basically glorified weapon mods disguised as a "power". You don't even really use them beside a single activation when the mission starts (or hit the MM button whenever available b/c there is hardly any point to bother using the other available abilities).

 

I've yet to hear a single reason for the need to use up (IMO waste) one or more powerslots (there are too few already) for a ... (near) permanent passive weapon mod. I prefer having stuff like Biotic Charge, Ballistic Blades, Overload, Cryo Blast, Stasis - you know, stuff that requires some sort of player involvement - to populate the (active) power section of this game (series).

 

I believe that's a legacy of ME1. Weapon boosting powers started over there, with marksman and whatnot. But, back then, you were able to use all the powers at the same time, as each power had an individual CD... Meaning that if you had MM you were not going to only use that and never use any other power you had. So things were ok, as even soldiers had a vast array of "real" powers, plus the weapon boosting ones. Right now, things are different... Having MM effectively locks you out of using any other power, unless you want to gimp your efficiency. Which is bad design, in my opinion.

 

All in all, I don't believe weapon boosting powers are bad per se, but I agree that they tend to make a character more boring than if he had another power instead of that... But that's more an issue of there being only 3 powers than of anything else, I think...

 

Imagine a MP where you have 5, 6 powers and you're not going to always use the same ones in a certain combination, but you have to adapt to the situation and decide on the moment wheter power 1 is better than power 5, say. Now, even if you have one or two of those powers replaced by passive weapon boosts, aka "modes", the character still behaves interestingly... It just is more proficient with guns.They are different from the passive tree because they (should) have downsides. So that you can decide when to activate them and when not to.

 

... I don't see that as inherently bad, to be honest.

[FuriousFelicia]

You guys toss around the phrase "game breaking" too lightly. When a game is actually broken, people stop playing it. It dies. It doesn't have an active player base two years after release much less an active community.
Nothing in this game is broken.

I agree with you if you're referring to powers/kits squabble, but some of those powers are 'broken'. And even despite that the game lives on. So no, the game isn't broken, left in a mess but not broken.

[Turian Master Race]

Nope. Those with access to poorly designed "powers" do not use the same weapons anymore.

 

So what? You can make the same argument for any kit. Juggy cannot be sync killed so: you are not playing the same game anymore! Fury, cabal can transport through walls, what kind of BS space magic is that: you are not playing the same game anymore! AUI can revive herself: you are not playign the same game anymore! So what? You are not playing the same game with fury, juggy, AUI, TSol, Krosol, etc. There are different kits with different stregth and weaknesses that makes ME3 multiplayer a long lasting and beautiful game.

 

That means they break the rules the game has set

 

What? Which rules?

 

which according to some is considered cheating. Legit cheating mayhaps, but still ...

 

Why are you so pissed off when it comes to TSol/Destroyer? Did someone outscore your krogan with them or what?

[Turian Master Race]

GTS, TSol, and Destroyer are perfect examples how one ruins anything hinting towards weapon balance. But you don't seem to care about balance at all. Fair enough, stupid though. The TSol with the Raider makes the lolreegar with cheese looks kinda meh + free reload & vastly superior range.

 

 

You completely ignore the trade-offs that the TSol offfers as a kit. Yes it has MM and yes it makes any weapon good, however, on the otherhand:

• it has low health and averge shields
• it is not fast
• it has no dodge
• no stimpacks or repair matrix
• no cloack
• no stagger immunity
• no synch kill immunity
• no ability to recharge shields
• no health regeneration
• no wallhax
• no ability to teleport

Basically, the Tsol's one and only survival kit is his gun and you are pissed off because he gets MM ... this is insane ...

[Zyzimorph]

You completely ignore the trade-offs that the TSol offfers as a kit. Yes it has MM and yes it makes any weapon good, however, on the otherhand:

• it has low health and averge shields
• it is not fast
• it has no dodge
• no stimpacks or repair matrix
• no cloack
• no stagger immunity
• no synch kill immunity
• no ability to recharge shields
• no health regeneration
• no wallhax
• no ability to teleport

Basically, the Tsol's one and only survival kit is his gun and you are pissed off because he gets MM ... this is insane ...

I may not agree with everything that Fortack is saying, but this is really stupid...
Everything you listed is only present in one or a small selection of kits and the others can be cured by gear and mods. Except for a dodge which isn't really a big deal.

[Turian Master Race]

If, with a miracle, the next game was balanced properly, and was full with classes such as Tsent, FQE, AA... You know, powerful but not too much. If that was to happen... And if they were to introduce a Raider Tsol into that game, what do you think would happen? I'll tell you what: people would start to whine about it and cry for nerfs. And to be honest, they wouldn't be so wrong about it. A Raider Tsol is heaps and bounds ahead of anything these other kits can come out with.

 

 

If the TSol is really such monstrosity, the second GI, how come that practically no one named him as the best soldier of the four? Read back the responses: HSOL, QMS, Destroyer, Bat sol, GTS, Kro sol, some even argues that the GE is better than all ... how come?

 

Also, I am playing plat in the last two month or so and I have not seen a single raider TSol, in fact I have not seen a single TSol (which makes me sad ...). Why? How came that if the TSol is the next GI people does not play such a powerful uber OP kit at all?!?!

 

Last but not least, the exact same argument can be made for the drell adept, or the AUI, or the TGI, or even the Juggy, etc. What does it mean? Does it means that the game is full of broken kits (I know some would say yes), IMO no. It just means, that like Fortack, you ignore the trade-offs each kits offers: speed, survivability, ease of use, DPS etc. People do not sipmly pick the highest DPS kits on plat (yes not even the GI or the DA).  

[Turian Master Race]

I may not agree with everything that Fortack is saying, but this is really stupid...
Everything you listed is only present in one or a small selection of kits and the others can be cured by gear and mods.

 

Shields, speed, wallhax can be cured by gears or cunsumables. How do you cure the others?

 

Except for a dodge which isn't really a big deal.

 

 

Lack of dodge is not a big deal? Good for you if so; most people I know does not likes the TSol exactly because of the lack of dodge.

[Deerber]

If the TSol is really such monstrosity, the second GI, how come that practically no one named him as the best soldier of the four? Read back the responses: HSOL, QMS, Destroyer, Bat sol, GTS, Kro sol, some even argues that the GE is better than all ... how come?

Also, I am playing plat in the last two month or so and I have not seen a single raider TSol, in fact I have not seen a single TSol (which makes me sad ...). Why? How came that if the TSol is the next GI people does not play such a powerful uber OP kit at all?!?!

Last but not least, the exact same argument can be made for the drell adept, or the AUI, or the TGI, or even the Juggy, etc. What does it mean? Does it means that the game is full of broken kits (I know some would say yes), IMO no. It just means, that like Fortack, you ignore the trade-offs each kits offers: speed, survivability, ease of use, DPS etc. People do not sipmly pick the highest DPS kits on plat (yes not even the GI or the DA).

I will not argue with someone who just said what you said, sorry

Have fun on platinum.

[Turian Master Race]

I will not argue with someone who just said what you said, sorry

Have fun on platinum.

 

I gave you an argument, good or bad, you gave me back a thinly veiled personal insult. I hope you can do better than this.

[Cyonan]

I generally agree with Deerber that no one kit should be capable of removing a gun's weaknesses completely. In my opinion Marksman should not be 45% accuracy and Smart Choke should definitely not be 50%. Alternatively Marksman should not stack with any weapon mods, since that makes it into a 80-95% spread reduction which is enough to make almost anything a pinpoint accurate weapon.

 

One thing worth noting however is that "balanced properly" is going to end up being highly debatable. The thing is that everything in the game needs to be balanced around a certain benchmark. What that benchmark is has no objectively correct answer, and depends on how difficult you want your game to be for the average player. I've seen a number of people on the BSN who thinks the game should have been a lot harder than BioWare wanted it to be.

 

If you introduced the Turian Soldier into a game that was balanced around the Geth Infiltrator it would not feel broken compared to the other kits, and might actually feel a bit underpowered to some people. If you did the same with the benchmark being the Turian Saboteur? Yeah, that'll cause some issues.

 

While the GI is the weapons DPS master, I've always maintained that grenade spammers are generally better for Gold. With that in mind, I can see why people might call other soldiers better than the Turian Soldier.

 

Some people will also just pick the one they personally like rather than the one they think is the "best". If you asked me Wraith or Talon, I would choose the Wraith every time even though the Talon is more overpowered. I just don't like the Talon.

[Deerber]

I gave you an argument, good or bad, you gave me back a thinly veiled personal insult. I hope you can do better than this.

I'm sorry, please do not take it as a personal insult as it was not meant that way. I simply lack the will to discuss this with you at this time.

A big part of the reasoning comes from the arguments you just put forward, which leads me to think that it would not be a very interesting discussion to mr, as you do seem to be hell bent on making your point no matter what, and those kinds of discussions are usually not enjoyable to me.

Another big part of it comes from the fact that it's 2:30 AM here.

So don't take it personal... It just happened like that because of many reasons. It doesn't mean I have anything against you.

[Turian Master Race]

I'm sorry, please do not take it as a personal insult as it was not meant that way. I simply lack the will to discuss this with you at this time.
 

 

Thanks for the civil response I am pleasantly surprised.

 

A big part of the reasoning comes from the arguments you just put forward, which leads me to think that it would not be a very interesting discussion to mr, as you do seem to be hell bent on making your point no matter what, and those kinds of discussions are usually not enjoyable to me.

 

 

Hm, interesting observation. I usually do not picture myself like this You might be correct, might (! ) but I would like to think that I can be persuaded by a well reasoned response. At least you shoud try.
 

Another big part of it comes from the fact that it's 2:30 AM here.

 

Same for me, but I understand. Np. GN.

 

So don't take it personal... It just happened like that because of many reasons. It doesn't mean I have anything against you.

 

 

Np. If you happen to change your mind I am happy to read your response.

[Deerber]

@RTK: maybe tomorrow

Gotta try and get some sleep now :/

[lightswitch]

I agree with you if you're referring to powers/kits squabble, but some of those powers are 'broken'. And even despite that the game lives on. So no, the game isn't broken, left in a mess but not broken.

 

It's not a mess. Not even close.

 

I find it astonishing that the point of contention in this argument is the Raider TSol. That setup is incredibly fun. Why the hell should anyone to get rid of it? It's such a lulzy good time. I mean what difference does it make? The only way something could be so OP as to actually really need nerfing is if it ruined games on the scale and with the regularity of missile glitching. There's nothing like that.

 

You know one of the ways they figure out something is OP in PvP games? They check to see if it's being overused. I can't even remember the last time I saw a mighty GI in a pug, much less a TSol wielding a Raider. This discussion is just ridiculous.

 

My god I've become an anti-nerfer. How things change. 'Balance' in a PvE game though really is a different beast.

[Kislitsin]

Dat BS went too far...

Lemme outline my point:

 

1. GTS (even with flamer being specced), TSol and Destroyer are perfectly balanced between themselves as a weapon platforms. Destroyer steps a bit forwards bc of nades. One has less DO (but 100% uptime), but is an extremely tanky and mobile, the other one has an insane bonuses but 80% uptime, the third has a great 100% uptime bonuses and the best sustained DO among 3, but lacks mobility.

The reason weapon platforms feel somewhat superior is in the double-tripple-hit bugs and some OP weapons. Penetration should not have such a huge impact on DPS in the next effect for sure.

 

2. I agree with Cyonan that MM should be toned down. But only after tonning down/modifiying some other OP BS (nades, lolcolyte, reeger, incendiary cheeze, lolcloak and even biotic charge somewhat). Removing it completely just because some people don't enjoy pure weapon platforms would be a completely retarded decision.

 

3. Specially for Fortack:

k, Krogans have: >1000 base shields and 2 forms of DR each, 2 of them have cheezy nades (and can carry 4 of them without nade gear), 1 has a charge (in addition to DR), 1has an insanely powerfull melee, 1 can coduct biotic combos. All are very staggerproofed. All have a good speed.

TSol has: 750 base shields, no DR, no spawn-nuking ability, no i-frames, no insane damage boosts, stagger-vulnerable. He is faster only than DM-destroyer and juggie. All he has is an ability to enhance RoF and Accuracy of his gun, and yes he is good at it. An ability that requires to aim better.

 

TSol is better than any krogan only situationally and only if the player have a somewhat decent aim. But lets take away his power (which locks him out of CS/PM use and do not provide any defence other than his gun) and give him, lets say, sentry turret. Because that would be fair to Krogans, cuz no Turian, no matter how god is his aim, should be able to situationally suprass the Krogan...

 

tl/dr: If you don't enjoy weapon platforms, don't play 'em. If you think that they are OP, well you have a right to ask for nerf. But request to completely remove weapon specialists cuz "they make the gameplay boring blah blah" is... retarded. No offense.

[Kislitsin]

 

The thing is that everything in the game needs to be balanced around a certain benchmark. What that benchmark is has no objectively correct answer....

 

TSent

[robarcool]

TSent

Or Krogan Sentinel (-grenade capacity)

[dudemacha]

The problem regarding weapon boosting powers is lack of a balancing drawback... I never understood the marksmen tree... It should have been accuracy+less ROF or more ROF+less accuracy(within acceptable limits)

Dev mode already restricts your movement speed and removes dodge as a penalty so it's OK IMO

IMO AR is more OP than either of those as it increases damage per bullet and let's you get DR and shield to negate DoT or giving an option to use a power while getting the before mentioned bonuses without having any penalties to balance it. (I always wanted it to have a negative ammo consumption modifier as a compromise for bonus damage ).

[Argent Xero]

either the Turian Soldier or Vanilla Human. They're both equipped to handle anything that comes at them. but the human soldier has overall the best survivability. when survivability comes into play, the Turian Soldier has to "take breaks" whereas the human soldier can keep on fighting.

Human Soldier wins because theoretical DPS is BS.

The damage one can potentially do is overshadowed by the one who can sustain the longest under pressure, in multiple scenarios.