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Vanilla HSol vs TSol vs Destroyer vs Quarksman


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#176
Cyonan

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Sorry, I have no idea what playstyle(s) you're referring to.

 

When you remove stuff you obviously gonna replace it with something else. Why does the Shadow also has to have a massive weapon damage bonus? You could simply make her melee stronger instead. You're creating problems without seeing the obvious and simple answers here.

 

If certain kits rely for a huge part on a random damage bonus they are badly designed and need to be reworked. Forgive me for saying this, but I am getting a bit tired of being forced to defend myself for stuff that is not going to be changed anyway. I am talking about how I believe it is best to build the power and weapon part of a ME style game. It's difficult for me to understand, that you of all people - Cyonan the GameMechanicGuru -, cannot think of other stuff, based on what there is currently available, to replace the weapon bonuses in the power section, and (still) have (more) fun kits to play with. 

 

The playstyle of being a weapons platform.

 

The Shadow might be able to have her melee buffed, but I doubt if you'd want to just buff up the passive weapon damage for the N7 Destroyer or Quarian Female Infiltrator. That would just negate the entire point of removing the weapon damage bonuses from their abilities.

 

The problem is that the weapon platforms need to be more effective with weapons in some way because they aren't as effective with their direct ability based damage, and if you buff up their ability damage then they aren't weapon platforms anymore.

 

I'm not really trying to get you to come up with specific answers to everything. I'm just listing kits as examples to get you to think about what this would mean to weapons platforms and people who enjoy that playstyle.

 

With the Destroyer example obviously Devastator Mode would be completely reworked, but the Destroyer needs to remain competitive on damage output with high ability damage kits like the N7 Fury or Drell Vanguard/Adept. Without the damage benefits of Devastator Mode and with the Fury being able to use weapons equally as good as him, he would be reliant on Hawk Missile Launcher and Multi-Frag Grenade spam in order to pick up the lost damage.

 

Even if you buffed up the damage of them to let him compete, that's a completely different playstyle than the Destroyer that I enjoy playing. I wouldn't want to see that playstyle go away just because it's difficult to balance.



#177
lightswitch

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Feel free to tell me how wrong I am.

 

In a game with RHA there's no amount of survivability that makes up for the huge DPS gap that exists between the Turian Soldier and the Human Soldier.



#178
Heldarion

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It's not a mess. Not even close.

 

I find it astonishing that the point of contention in this argument is the Raider TSol. That setup is incredibly fun. Why the hell should anyone to get rid of it? It's such a lulzy good time. I mean what difference does it make? The only way something could be so OP as to actually really need nerfing is if it ruined games on the scale and with the regularity of missile glitching. There's nothing like that.

 

You know one of the ways they figure out something is OP in PvP games? They check to see if it's being overused. I can't even remember the last time I saw a mighty GI in a pug, much less a TSol wielding a Raider. This discussion is just ridiculous.

 

My god I've become an anti-nerfer. How things change. 'Balance' in a PvE game though really is a different beast.

 

Not sure if trolling... but if you're trying to say that GI is not overpowered, you have no idea what you're talking about.



#179
Turian Master Race

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Not sure if trolling... but if you're trying to say that GI is not overpowered, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

The problem is that how do you define OPness? It clearly has an unparalled ability to dish out damage but it cannot offer the same ease of use and survivability as some other kits (TGI, AUI). So apparently it is brokeness in one department is more than counter balanced by the fact that it is a glass cannon (because I have not seen a GI in ages in plat lobbies too).



#180
Heldarion

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The problem is that how do you define OPness? It clearly has an unparalled ability to dish out damage but it cannot offer the same ease of use and survivability as some other kits (TGI, AUI). So apparently it is brokeness in one department is more than counter balanced by the fact that it is a glass cannon (because I have not seen a GI in ages in plat lobbies too).

 

If you have a brain and a wallhack, you shouldn't be dying mcuh, if at all.

 

edit: also, dead things don't shoot back.



#181
Turian Master Race

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Everyone has their own racial characteristics, has access to 3 abilities, and can use all weapons. What I am questioning is the point of giving a select few vastly superior weapons with no tradeoff whatsoever. Would a Volus Engineer, who can use the GI version of the Talon (or whatever), make the GI - or any of the other kits you've mentioned - look bad?

 

You can also turn things around: Would the Destroyer become a worthless PoS without DM's weapon bonuses? Or Infiltrators when you remove TC's damage boost? Is HM without the accuracy and RoF stuff garbage?

 

I believe there seems to be some confusion between weapon(mod)s and abilities here. For example, I like the MM Saber but completely fail to understand the point of having only 2 character choices if I want to use it (and be unable to do anything but shoot for the entire match). Why can't I use the MM Saber on my Justicar, Batarian Sentinel, FQE and so on?

 

When you completely remove all weapon enhancing stuff from powers and move them to their appropriate place (the weapon modding workbench) you:

 


1. Get much more (weapon) customization options for everyone.

 

2. Create room for abilities that can be used more frequently than turning it on at the start of the game, which will:

 

3. Add more options for the player in combat.

 

4. Reward player input instead of simply selecting a kit that deals more damage, faster, at ridiculous range, and without the need to properly aim.

 

5. Make it very easy to balance weapons.

 

Everything you can do today can be done after you rearrange stuff (ergo, moving all weapon enhancements to the (weapon) modding section). I can't see any disadvantages at all, unless the point is to create (a couple) kits that are miles ahead of the competition for no obvious reason (which I consider a bad thing BTW).

 

Thank you for your well thought out response, unfortunately you are completely and utterly ignoring my previous criticism. Namely that you cannot pick the ability MM in itself, you have to pick a kit, either TSol, or QSol. So MM as a power (which has no cons, but few power has cons on the first place) is tied to a kit which has cons and pros but mostly cons when it comes to survivability (see my previous list, which you also ignored). This is a constraint on using MM. You are ignoring this constraint and pretending that MM exists independently of this constraint.

 

Also this constraint creates trade-offs. Yes, some of the cons tied to Tsol can be cured by gears or consumables but only at the cost of trade-offs. Do you want cyclonics or adrenalin mod? Do you want geth scanner or AC? These trade-offs are tied to the specifc kit. You are ignoring these trade-offs. Other kits do not have these trade-offs. Geth do not have the trade-off between geth scanner or AC, krogans with their shield and health need no cyclonics they can go with adrenalin, power or whatever mod you want, etc.

 

What you are proposing is the removal of this constraint hence the removal of the trade-offs that comes with this constraint. Krogans with twice the health than the TSol, with more shield and with some additional DR using the TSol's raider? Now, this would be OP

 

But do not worry, this will not happen because as soon as you move MM into the weapon mods (thus removing the currently existing constraint) these weapons will be nerfed accordingly (i.e. RoF, accuracy, etc). What will you achive by this move?

 

1, You will reduce the variety of existing kits because there won't be any weapon platforms as we know them today.

2, you will frustrate those players who does not have the newly introduced weapon mods but have a worse (nerfed) weapon instead.

3, you will even limit the choices of those who have these new mods, because these mods will be more or less madatory (like the shotgun smartchoke for most shotguns) thus there will be only one slot left for the other mods (piercing, magazine, power, etc.).

 

In other words you will achive the very opposite of what you claimed as your goal.

 

As for the specific claims:

 

1. Get much more (weapon) customization options for everyone.

 

2. Create room for abilities that can be used more frequently than turning it on at the start of the game, which will:

 

3. Add more options for the player in combat.

 

4. Reward player input instead of simply selecting a kit that deals more damage, faster, at ridiculous range, and without the need to properly aim.

 

5. Make it very easy to balance weapons.

 

 

 

1, As said this move would actually limit the options as some mods would be more or less mandatory.

 

2, Which does not hold for MM, because you cannot simply turn it on at the start of the game and stay in MM.

 

3, The TSol already has the exact some number of options as most of the other kits (i.e. 3), moreover these are on competing cooldown.

 

4, LOL, you don't have to properly aim with the TSol?

 

5, If under balance you mean nerfing them, then surely it will result in an easy nerf.



#182
Turian Master Race

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If you have a brain and a wallhack, you shouldn't be dying mcuh, if at all.

 

edit: also, dead things don't shoot back.

 

I understand and I agree, I am just reporting an observation that GI (and TSol) are non-existent kits on plat. You are free to make up your own conclusion from this.



#183
Heldarion

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I understand and I agree, I am just reporting an observation that GI (and TSol) are non-existent kits on plat. You are free to make up your own conclusion from this.

 

1. People got bored of it

2. People didn't like it

3. People haven't unlocked it

4. People don't know how fu%$T&ing broken it is

5. People think it's bad cuz OMG Hunter Mode halves your shields

6. other



#184
Argent Xero

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In a game with RHA there's no amount of survivability that makes up for the huge DPS gap that exists between the Turian Soldier and the Human Soldier.


again, all I'm seeing is theoretical DPS.

You've failed to add to anything further that isn't already known on paper.

#185
me0120

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If there was a drell soldier, this question of best soldier would never have come up  :whistle:

 

Quoted again because facts are facts.


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#186
lightswitch

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again, all I'm seeing is theoretical DPS.

You've failed to add to anything further that isn't already known on paper.

 

"Theoretical" DPS.

 

Here's some 'theoretical' DPS for you: If the HSol and the TSol both equip a Harrier and start shooting each other in the face at the same time, the HSol will be the one who dies every. single. time.

 

There's nothing 'theoretical' about the huge damage gap that exists between the Turian and the Human. Any half decent player over the course of any game should be able to output more damage with the TSol than the HSol, uptime be damned.



#187
Zyzimorph

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"Theoretical" DPS.
 
Here's some 'theoretical' DPS for you: If the HSol and the TSol both equip a Harrier and start shooting each other in the face at the same time, the HSol will be the one who dies every. single. time.
 
There's nothing 'theoretical' about the huge damage gap that exists between the Turian and the Human. Any half decent player over the course of any game should be able to output more damage with the TSol than the HSol, uptime be damned.


Reefa's waiting for you in Minecraft .

#188
Argent Xero

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"Theoretical" DPS.
 
Here's some 'theoretical' DPS for you: If the HSol and the TSol both equip a Harrier and start shooting each other in the face at the same time, the HSol will be the one who dies every. single. time.
 
There's nothing 'theoretical' about the huge damage gap that exists between the Turian and the Human.


You just don't get it..

That a single instance, with impossible circumstances.

Again, you fail to add anything further that isn't already known on paper.

#189
Heldarion

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"Theoretical" DPS.

 

Here's some 'theoretical' DPS for you: If the HSol and the TSol both equip a Harrier and start shooting each other in the face at the same time, the HSol will be the one who dies every. single. time.

 

TSol will get CS'd the **** out of his sorry undodgable arse, then blased into pieces by a Frag Grenade.

 

Just sayin'.



#190
Deerber

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Lol. There's no sense arguing, guys, you're going nowhere. Just let him go away with his opinion, he's obviously happier that way.



#191
lightswitch

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Sometimes I really wonder what game you people are playing.



#192
Argent Xero

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Sometimes I really wonder what game you people are playing.


The same one you're not playing, apparently.

#193
lightswitch

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The same one you're not playing, apparently.

 

you: http://social.biowar...o&platform=xbox

me: http://social.biowar...h37&platform=pc

 

So who hasn't played what now?



#194
lightswitch

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Lol. There's no sense arguing, guys, you're going nowhere. Just let him go away with his opinion, he's obviously happier that way.

 

Deerber, quit being so hypocritical. You present your opinions as 'absolutes' on this forum all the time. If I had a quarter for every time you 'lol'ed at a post that contained something you disagreed with and consequently decided was stupid I'd be rich. But god forbid I dare disagree with your opinion on the human soldier in a blunt manner.

 

I have a viewpoint. If I'm going to go to the trouble of sharing it at all, I'm going to share it like I actually mean it.



#195
me0120

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I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.



#196
Argent Xero

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you: http://social.biowar...o&platform=xbox
me: http://social.biowar...h37&platform=pc
 
So who hasn't played what now?


lol seriously? :lol:

#197
Argent Xero

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Deerber, quit being so hypocritical. You present your opinions as 'absolutes' on this forum all the time. If I had a quarter for every time you 'lol'ed at a post that contained something you disagreed with and consequently decided was stupid I'd be rich. But god forbid I dare disagree with your opinion on the human soldier in a blunt manner.
 
I have a viewpoint. If I'm going to go to the trouble of sharing it at all, I'm going to share it like I actually mean it.


and yet you responded to my original post with an "unbelievable".

not only did you target my opinion, you targeted my induction into the Spectre group as well. It was as if you said to me "you're wrong in your opinion, I can't believe you're in Spectre".

#198
Dr. Tim Whatley

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Smh.

#199
KalilKareem

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I will step in to defend lightswitch here, because I have the feeling you guys are just pushing him around in some kind of ugly mob mentality. He has presented his case. You can call it "theoretical" all you like, because you have presented nothing but finger pointing.

I dont know lightswitch IRL but we have played together on and off for over a year now. He is an excellent player that continously tests new builds on platinum. He has come to the conclusion that Tsol outperferms Hsol on merit of superior single target dps. And I fully agree.

#200
TheNightSlasher

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lolDPS arguments


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