Aller au contenu

Photo

Why did TIM need Shepard to believe?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
42 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Gervaise

Gervaise
  • Members
  • 4 555 messages

I've been re-looking at the last encounter with TIM and these words gave me pause.   Why was it so important to TIM to get Shepard to believe he was right?   On the face of it there was no need since at that point he appears to be in control of Shepard and Anderson, so why not simply kill them?   However, we know that he was in fact being controlled by the Reapers and given the oily shadows and strange buzzing noise, it is clear they are involved in what is happening to Shepard.   So is it in fact important to them that Shepard "believes".

 

At this point Shepard is only talking about destroying.   TIM is advocating controlling the Reapers but only in order that humanity can be "uplifted".   He considers that in his altered state which is part organic, part synthetic that he is the pinnacle of evolution.   This goes beyond what Saran believed since he only saw synthesis as a means to survival in the face of Reaper superiority.   TIM believes he is taking humanity to the point where they are superior to the Reapers.   Listening to his speeches again (which are in response to a renegade Shepard and therefore I think differ to those to a paragon), what he is suggesting ultimately is not simply controlling the Reapers but synthesis whilst in control of them.

 

In the original pre-EC ending the Catalyst says very little to Shepard by way of explanation and we are asked to make a choice based on very little information.   It maintains it only accepted the need for an "alternative" to its previous solution because Shepard, an organic has made it that far and the completed and docked Crucible have opened up other possibilities.    However, it also admits that it was aware of the plans for the Crucible and they existed in previous cycles.      So were they in fact a test set up by the Catalyst to judge when a particular cycle was ready for synthesis?

 

To pass the test, Shepard had to first find the plans, then get the Crucible made and then finally get to the point where it could be docked.   In the process they had to in fact resist indoctrination because this would naturally make them believe the Reapers were right and allow the Cycle to continue.    TIM had got as far as he had but failed because he would not open the arms to accept the Crucible.  He thought he could control the Reapers without it, which he couldn't, because he was too far under their control.    Shepard with their mind still their own had passed all the tests.  This is why Harbinger didn't kill them when it had the chance.   The idea was to strip them of companions and everything else bar their mind.   Which is why Anderson had to die because he wasn't needed and might well get in the way of convincing Shepard to "believe."

 

I have always believed that Shepard was the true Catalyst and that the AI only took the title because it was aware that this is what Shepard was looking for.   However, it needed the organic Shepard to make the decision that would operate the Crucible and if he/she opted for synthesis, the DNA profile for the nanobots to work to.

 

What do you think?   Can you come up with another explanation for why TIM needed Shepard to "believe."



#2
MassivelyEffective0730

MassivelyEffective0730
  • Members
  • 9 230 messages

I think it can be sufficed with one word, for good or ill:

 

Indoctrination.



#3
cap and gown

cap and gown
  • Members
  • 4 812 messages

What do you think?   Can you come up with another explanation for why TIM needed Shepard to "believe."

 

You'll never go wrong if you assume the writers at BW care more about drama and emotion than logic, continuity, or science.


  • Animositisomina, DeinonSlayer, themikefest et 2 autres aiment ceci

#4
MassivelyEffective0730

MassivelyEffective0730
  • Members
  • 9 230 messages

You'll never go wrong if you assume the writers at BW care more about drama and emotion than logic, continuity, or science.

 

This too.



#5
von uber

von uber
  • Members
  • 5 526 messages

I never understood how this was able to happen:

 

sxxQVS2.jpg

 

If TIM can control Shep to shoot Anderson, how is She then able to shoot him?



#6
Obadiah

Obadiah
  • Members
  • 5 765 messages

I think TIM wanted Shepard to believe just to prove to himself he wasn't crazy or being controlled by the Reapers.



#7
themikefest

themikefest
  • Members
  • 21 643 messages

We see TIM control Anderson and Shepard, but not their minds since they can freely speak. I'm not sure how he able to control Anderson unless its some form of dominate power. With Shepard it could be with his/her implants from ME2. I thought it was overkill to shoot Anderson(not that I care) when we already see him controlling them both.



#8
Gervaise

Gervaise
  • Members
  • 4 555 messages

So suppose Shepard said "I'm convinced, we should control them", what then?    Would TIM not have "believed" Shepard was genuine?    I don't believe that the plot is all illogical nonsense on the part of the writers.    I like to think that there was a definite explanation for everything that occurred beyond the beam even if it is not immediately apparent.  

 

I suppose the speech could be just a hang over from when TIM was meant to be the last big boss battle and was trying to convince Shepard not to fight him.    That would make more sense.   

 

Then again, I suppose you could be right and he is just delusional.



#9
Crazylegs830

Crazylegs830
  • Members
  • 4 messages

   The Illusive Man was seen through a console during Priority: Cerberus Headquarters where he is speaking with Kai Leng. TIM says that he respects Shepard on multiple occasions during this mission. This is the closest thing I can think of that would explain why he would rather Shepard join him rather then kill him.



#10
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 790 messages
Don't overthink it. TIM is trying to reassure himself that he hasn't gone crazy, and Shepard believing would be powerful reassurance. Saren was concerned that he was indoctrinated; surely the possibility had crossed TIM's mind.

Also, what cap and gown said.
  • JasonShepard, teh DRUMPf!!, Invisible Man et 2 autres aiment ceci

#11
Mcfly616

Mcfly616
  • Members
  • 8 998 messages
Indoctrination....

#12
Mcfly616

Mcfly616
  • Members
  • 8 998 messages
I'm fairly certain Paul Grayson gained the ability to control other individuals motor functions. I think TIM represents the perfected version of that ability by the end of ME3.

#13
MassivelyEffective0730

MassivelyEffective0730
  • Members
  • 9 230 messages

   The Illusive Man was seen through a console during Priority: Cerberus Headquarters where he is speaking with Kai Leng. TIM says that he respects Shepard on multiple occasions during this mission. This is the closest thing I can think of that would explain why he would rather Shepard join him rather then kill him.

 

I'd rather TIM joined me in the fight than have to kill him. It's a shame I had too. I'm confidant that had he not been indoctrinated, he'd have been my greatest ally.



#14
cap and gown

cap and gown
  • Members
  • 4 812 messages

Don't overthink it. TIM is trying to reassure himself that he hasn't gone crazy, and Shepard believing would be powerful reassurance. Saren was concerned that he was indoctrinated; surely the possibility had crossed TIM's mind.

 

This seems like the best answer.



#15
Bob from Accounting

Bob from Accounting
  • Members
  • 1 527 messages

When people have to loudly repeat things they supposedly know are true, it's a dead giveaway the person they're trying to convince is themselves.



#16
MassivelyEffective0730

MassivelyEffective0730
  • Members
  • 9 230 messages

When people have to loudly repeat things they supposedly know are true, it's a dead giveaway the person they're trying to convince is themselves.

 

Heroism, power, good!



#17
Bad King

Bad King
  • Members
  • 3 133 messages

The reapers were stopping him from activating the crucible. When Shepard asked him why he wasn't activating it, he clearly couldn't think of a reason why he couldn't do it (he didn't realise that the reapers were preventing him or at least he didn't want to believe that). So he said "I need you to believe" simply because he couldn't think of the real reason as to why he wasn't activating the device.



#18
Derpy

Derpy
  • Members
  • 3 824 messages

I'd rather TIM joined me in the fight than have to kill him. It's a shame I had too. I'm confidant that had he not been indoctrinated, he'd have been my greatest ally.

I would never want an indoctrinated creep fighting with me.



#19
MassivelyEffective0730

MassivelyEffective0730
  • Members
  • 9 230 messages

I would never want an indoctrinated creep fighting with me.

 

Neither would I. That said, I did mention that had he not been indoctrinated, he'd be my best ally.



#20
Derpy

Derpy
  • Members
  • 3 824 messages

Neither would I. That said, I did mention that had he not been indoctrinated, he'd be my best ally.

Even then, seeing how he spends all that time killing you and tricking you and killing you again. I had wanted TIM dead from the first moment.


  • CrutchCricket et Invisible Man aiment ceci

#21
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 818 messages

It is called -- Final Boss speech bwah ha ha ha ha. It is final proof that TIM is a megalomaniac.



#22
CrutchCricket

CrutchCricket
  • Members
  • 7 747 messages

Megalomania and ego.

 

Even if he hadn't been indoctrinated I would've shot him, given the chance.



#23
Bad King

Bad King
  • Members
  • 3 133 messages

Even then, seeing how he spends all that time killing you and tricking you and killing you again. I had wanted TIM dead from the first moment.

 

What? Shepard dies only 1-2 times in the entire trilogy and neither death was due to TIM. In fact, TIM was the one who cured Shepard's case of death in ME2.



#24
ImaginaryMatter

ImaginaryMatter
  • Members
  • 4 163 messages

I guess it provided a reason for TIM not to shoot Shepard then and there.

 

It's one of my least favorite conversations in the series because it's just a long rehash of every prior conversation with TIM in ME3, "Hey Shepard I'm Indoctrinated, everything I say is nonsense."



#25
Derpy

Derpy
  • Members
  • 3 824 messages

What? Shepard dies only 1-2 times in the entire trilogy and neither death was due to TIM. In fact, TIM was the one who cured Shepard's case of death in ME2.

Only to trick Shepard and try to kill him again.