42 réponses à ce sujet

[Bad King]

Only to trick Shepard and try to kill him again.

 

So he spent millions of credits bringing him back to life and providing him with a state of the art ship and crew only to try and kill him again. Seems legit.

[Derpy]

So he spent millions of credits bringing him back to life and providing him with a state of the art ship and crew only to try and kill him again. Seems legit.

Pretty much was indoctrination does to you.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Ya, Indoctrination is one hell of a drug.

[Bad King]

Pretty much was indoctrination does to you.

 

It's unlikely that he was indoctrinated during ME2. He sends Shepard into the Collector Ship for a reason: to obtain information about getting to the Collector Homeworld. He didn't tell him there would be an ambush because he was afraid that the collectors would have been tipped off. Yes, it's poor writing, but there's no evidence that he sent Shepard to the ship deliberately to kill him, particularly when he needed that information so crucially.

[Invisible Man]

I've never read any of the books or comics myself, but I heard somewhere, that TIM had been indoctrinated for like 20 years before mass effect 1 even took place. if that's true (or canon) he's been indoctrinated, and likely stark raving mad since before we ever met him.

[Bad King]

I've never read any of the books or comics myself, but I heard somewhere, that TIM had been indoctrinated for like 20 years before mass effect 1 even took place. if that's true (or canon) he's been indoctrinated, and likely stark raving mad since before we ever met him.

 

Yeah, it's in the Evolution comic, and it's problematic to say the least. TIM shows no symptoms of being indoctrinated in ME2- only in ME3 did BioWare write him into being indoctrinated: for me it makes more sense that he was indoctrinated by the human reaper carcass (though I still think that him being indoctrinated at all is somewhat nonsensical).

[Excella Gionne]

I think it's because the Illusive Man was distracted by Shepard trying to convince him that he's indoctrinated. TIM starts to lost focus allowing Shepard to shoot him.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Yeah, it's in the Evolution comic, and it's problematic to say the least. TIM shows no symptoms of being indoctrinated in ME2- only in ME3 did BioWare write him into being indoctrinated: for me it makes more sense that he was indoctrinated by the human reaper carcass (though I still think that him being indoctrinated at all is somewhat nonsensical).

 

You think the guy would have had a plan B. He is smart enough. And he was involved in the cure for death, nullifying Indoctrination seems like a synch compared to that.

[Bad King]

You think the guy would have had a plan B. He is smart enough. And he was involved in the cure for death, nullifying Indoctrination seems like a synch compared to that.

 

Agreed: TIM knew more about the reapers than any other person in the galaxy, it's baffling that he so easily fell into the indoctrination trap in ME3. Saren's indoctrination made a lot more sense as he pretty much stumbled upon Sovereign without any knowledge of the scope of what he was dealing with.

[congokong]

This reminds me of all those English classes in school where the teachers would over-analyze an author's work to the point where I bet even the author didn't pick up on some of the symbolism and the like fans noticed.

 

Don't over-analyze everything in the game. You're giving the writers too much credit. It's clear TIM was:

1. Stalling because he'd eventually realize that he was physically unable to activate the crucible to control the reapers because he was indoctrinated

2. Trying to convince others he's right because he was doubting that he was right and wanted validation for his actions

[congokong]

There's no logical way TIM was indoctrinated in ME2. An indoctrinated person doesn't do something that cripples the reapers' efforts (destroy the collectors); the opposite of what indoctrination is meant to do. That's some willpower he has if he was indeed indoctrinated.

[NeroonWilliams]

It's been said several times in this thread that TIM was trying to convince himself.  I agree that that is the case, but I think it's also important to think about why he wanted to convince himself in front of SHEPARD.

 

My own thinking on that is that humans have a deep need to believe in something greater than themself.  Be it a God, or "market forces", or "big government" (the three most prevalent things in the US), people want there to be something greater that reassures them that they are doing the right thing.  Even TIM isn't fully immune to this need.

 

I think that in that final confrontation, TIM was appealing to the closest thing that he views as a power higher than himself (Shepard) to validate what he is about to attempt.

 

I realize that this sounds close to deifying "The Shepard", but then again maybe that's as good an explanation for THAT happening, too.

[Karlone123]

There's no logical way TIM was indoctrinated in ME2. An indoctrinated person doesn't do something that cripples the reapers' efforts (destroy the collectors); the opposite of what indoctrination is meant to do. That's some willpower he has if he was indeed indoctrinated.

 

I would have figured TIM was indoctrinated because he had the Human-Reaper hybrid remains that Shepard fought kept in his base.

[The Sarendoctrinator]

I think it's for the same reason that Saren wanted Shepard to believe him. They're closer to the Reapers than anyone else, and they feel that only someone with that firsthand knowledge could understand. Both have been studying the Reapers for years. By this point, they seem almost desperate for someone else to see their point of view. 

 

I've never read any of the books or comics myself, but I heard somewhere, that TIM had been indoctrinated for like 20 years before mass effect 1 even took place. if that's true (or canon) he's been indoctrinated, and likely stark raving mad since before we ever met him.

TIM came into contact with the Reapers back then, but I don't think he was really indoctrinated until just before ME3. If he was, then it was the slow and subtle form of indoctrination where they don't even see it coming. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 TIM's indoctrination begins after he's implanted with Reaper-tech.

 

That procedure takes place roughly after the fall of the Sanctuary facility.

 

I've thoroughly debunked the notion it happens any time earlier.

[SwobyJ]

Just a moral and existential debate.

 

Shepard is Hamlet.

[SporkFu]

It's unlikely that he was indoctrinated during ME2. He sends Shepard into the Collector Ship for a reason: to obtain information about getting to the Collector Homeworld. He didn't tell him there would be an ambush because he was afraid that the collectors would have been tipped off. Yes, it's poor writing, but there's no evidence that he sent Shepard to the ship deliberately to kill him, particularly when he needed that information so crucially.

I think he was becoming indoctrinated toward the end, or right at the end; he wanted to save the collector base to use the technology against the reapers. The seeds were being planted for the idea of controlling them. Even before that, TIM didn't tell Shep about the ambush because he was trying to learn as much as he could about how the collectors were being controlled by the reapers.

 

What would have been really cool is if TIM was indoctrinated by the Leviathans the whole time.

[KaiserShep]

I would have preferred he not be indoctrinated at all, and was actually looking for a way to control the reapers without the taint of their influence on his mind. Of course, Cerberus would not be able to operate as a mook force for Shepard to shoot at everywhere in the galaxy for that to make sense, but you can kind of get indoctrinated baddies from just about anywhere.