93 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

This statement actually represents the idea better than the first one. This is pretty much how it is.

You know, recently there was a bill in Arizona to allow businesses the right to refuse service to homosexual people. When it got struck down by Jan Brewer, the Governor of Arizona, a lot of people cried out that the bill being vetoed(which limited the civil rights of homosexual people) trampled on their religious rights and beliefs. Kansas already has said law in place, and there's talk that they'll even try to allow first-responders to refuse aid to people based on religious belief.

That's what people are doing here: Civil rights for gays equals trampling on others 'religious rights' to shamefully large number of people.

I can see both sides. The baker in question was driven out of business. Tolerance is one thing; forced participation is something else.

For the most part, I'd think we should let the market deal with such foolishness - who would honestly patronize an establishment that put a "whites only" sign in their door in this day and age? That said, when it has the potential to cause actual harm, like, say, a doctor whose religious beliefs told him he didn't have to wash his hands before surgery (as has happened in Britain) or the hypothetical paramedic scenario, then yes an authority should step in.

EDIT: Damn it, here I'm taking the thread in that direction. Shutting up now.

[shit's fucked cunts]

So yeah, anyway. "Pro-human" conjures up lots of horrible ideas, especially when used in context with Cerberus, knowing what we know about them.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

So yeah, anyway. "Pro-human" conjures up lots of horrible ideas, especially when used in context with Cerberus, knowing what we know about them.

 

I disagree completely.

[Bad King]

I agree that having a third faction is important for gameplay, but that third faction should have been the batarians. Balak, before his death in ME1, warns Shepard of an impending batarian rebellion where his people would get their revenge against the galactic community and make themselves supreme.

 

Furthermore, the Leviathan of Dis was apparently a gigantic genetically engineered organic starship that the batarians had acquired (no Mac, it can't be a reaper as reapers are synthetic, not genetically engineered and only fuelled with organic matter: they aren't organic in themselves). It would have been cool if it had turned out to be a sentient being, created eons ago by a race attempting to survive the reapers by constructing equivalent organic sentient starships. As Vigil mentions, the reapers didn't destroy every prothean planet: some were conquered and their entire populations indoctrinated. Why not have Kar'shan turn out this way with the Leviathan of Dis making peace with the reapers and allowing them to conquer and indoctrinate Kar'shan while protecting a select group of batarian disciples who become loyal to the Leviathan for its protection (if you went the paragon route in BDtS, Balak could have been the leader of these disciples). The Leviathan would appear to aid the reapers but would in fact have its own ulterior motive for working with the reapers (hoping itself to eventually find a way to defeat them).

 

Meanwhile, Cerberus should have been secretly working with Shepard: like they were described at the end of the third novel, Cerberus should have been weakened and comprising only of a few small cells: not a galactic Empire, perhaps occasionally feeding Shepard information when it suited them. I actually like the idea that TIM wanted to control the reapers: it's completely within his ambitious personality and his desire to strengthen humanity. But his careless indoctrination made me facepalm: TIM is meant to be intelligent and has more knowledge of the reapers than any other living organic, other than Javik: in a consistent story, there's no way he would have been indoctrinated.

[Bad King]

Cerberus becoming the baddies in ME3 fitted with their previous reputation from ME1 and with the lore concerning the Reapers.  We were told in ME1 that the Protheans were hampered in their fight from enemies within their ranks.   This is confirmed by Javik.   It means that on top of their superior forces the Reapers have the advantage of chaos in enemy ranks.   It also means that they are more likely to gain information about isolated communities that they might otherwise overlook in the harvest.   The only way Ilos avoided this was to cut themselves off completely from the outside world.    Given how widespread Cerberus is in the galaxy, it stands to reason that the Reapers would see them as a useful way of sowing mistrust and discord in the galactic community.

 

What was utterly stupid here to me was that the reapers had indoctrinated Cerberus by making them want to control the reapers. Why on earth would the reapers do this when they could have simply indoctrinated them the same way they indoctrinated Saren: by making them think that submitting to the reapers was the only way to survive. Why would you control someone into thinking that they can control you, especially when they almost succeeded in doing so? BioWare completely messed up the writing when it came to Cerberus and the reapers in ME3. They allowed both factions to share the idiot ball.

 

 

Wording. "I don't hate black people, I'm just pro-white. Man, I love being white, but you blacks are okay as well."

 

You'd kick the **** out of them.

 

Human 'races' are not the same as utterly different biological species. Humanity isn't just about external appearances; it's about having a human ontology as well as the ability to sustain a population with others of the same phenotype. Human 'races' are all part of the same species: we have a diversity of cultures not specifically relating to race, but all of which follow certain similar patterns and wherever we are from we can all produce fertile offspring with each other and sustain a single population and society. We have an evolutionary history lasting billions of years and yet we only started branching in separate directions 100-200 thousand years ago.

 

Compare that to humans and aliens and you have huge differences. Different ontologies and billions of years of separate evolution. By necessity, aliens living in human societies would end up being almost completely separate populations: they'd have to be to sustain a population and community as well as the fact that many human cultural activities would be alien to them and vice versa.

[oldag07]

I agree that having a third faction is important for gameplay, but that third faction should have been the batarians. Balak, before his death in ME1, warns Shepard of an impending batarian rebellion where his people would get their revenge against the galactic community and make themselves supreme.

Furthermore, the Leviathan of Dis was apparently a gigantic genetically engineered organic starship that the batarians had acquired (no Mac, it can't be a reaper as reapers are synthetic, not genetically engineered and only fuelled with organic matter: they aren't organic in themselves). It would have been cool if it had turned out to be a sentient being, created eons ago by a race attempting to survive the reapers by constructing equivalent organic sentient starships. As Vigil mentions, the reapers didn't destroy every prothean planet: some were conquered and their entire populations indoctrinated. Why not have Kar'shan turn out this way with the Leviathan of Dis making peace with the reapers and allowing them to conquer and indoctrinate Kar'shan while protecting a select group of batarian disciples who become loyal to the Leviathan for its protection (if you went the paragon route in BDtS, Balak could have been the leader of these disciples). The Leviathan would appear to aid the reapers but would in fact have its own ulterior motive for working with the reapers (hoping itself to eventually find a way to defeat them).

Or both Shadow Broker and Baterians.

[CrutchCricket]

Because Cerberus supports humanity while Shepard supports the banging of aliens. anything.

 

Fixed.

 

So yeah, anyway. "Pro-human" conjures up lots of horrible ideas, especially when used in context with Cerberus, knowing what we know about them.

 

Only because most people who label themselves as pro-anything wind up being douchebags to anything seemingly opposed to it. In a rare instance of Bioware actually presenting a balanced view on something, in ME2 Miranda outlines the difference between human advancement and dominance and between the former and plain anti-alien racism. She also says that unfortunately Cerberus draws a lot of undesirables who are just in the latter camp and all it does is tarnish the issue.

 

It becomes Truth in Television (or video games at least) when you take a look at what most "pro-Ceberus/humanity" people on here are saying. Case in point: the human supremacist playthrough thread.

[Bad King]

It becomes Truth in Television (or video games at least) when you take a look at what most "pro-Ceberus/humanity" people on here are saying. Case in point: the human supremacist playthrough thread.

 

Why are you so upset about a roleplaying thread?

[grey_wind]

As has been mentioned, the Batarians would have made a far more logical third faction. But if the writers were really, really intent on having "human enemies" to shoot at, they could have just used the two fleets and all the ground troops Hackett left behind when Earth fell. At least it would explain their military capability.

[Bob from Accounting]

As has been mentioned, the Batarians would have made a far more logical third faction. But if the writers were really, really intent on having "human enemies" to shoot at, they could have just used the two fleets and all the ground troops Hackett left behind when Earth fell. At least it would explain their military capability.

 

That would have just been silly.

 

You don't seem to grasp the idea that enemies should be more than just mooks to shoot at. They should serve a narrative purpose. And a third faction who serves as brainless servants to the Reapers is about as purposeless as it gets.

 

Granted, Cerberus probably fell into that territory somewhat themselves. But at the very least they have a history and motive behind them. There ultimately wasn't much of a payoff, but at least there was an attempt. This is a failure right out of the gate.

[CrutchCricket]

Why are you so upset about a roleplaying thread?

 

Who said I'm upset?

 

You thread boils down to "kill all aliens unless in sparing them you can kill more aliens later" and you label it "pro-human".

 

Seems legit.

 

I don't care who plays what. But call it what it is.

[grey_wind]

That would have just been silly.

 

You don't seem to grasp the idea that enemies should be more than just mooks to shoot at. They should serve a narrative purpose. And a third faction who serves as brainless servants to the Reapers is about as purposeless as it gets.

 

Granted, Cerberus probably fell into that territory somewhat themselves. But at the very least they have a history and motive behind them. There ultimately wasn't much of a payoff, but at least there was an attempt. This is a failure right out of the gate.

So why not use the Batarians then?

[Bob from Accounting]

I have no problems with pro-human sentiments as long as the people who support them acknowledge them for what they are - attitudes for role-playing because it can be fun to be evil when you're playing a video game.

 

The problem is when people delude themselves into thinking it's actually a real-world ideology and mass genocide and such are morally justified. When people start citing philosophers and economists and such to 'prove' that human supremacy and mass murder and whatnot are actually delightful concepts in the real world. That's no longer okay. It's immensely foolish, immature, and delusional.

[Bob from Accounting]

So why not use the Batarians then?

 

...Because of what I just said? Because fighting enemies who have no motive or purpose above 'I hate humans!' is poor writing? Because people have been asking for a batarian squadmate, and having batarians becoming one-dimensional mooks completely cripples any idea of them being a species instead of just target practice? Because having them be a force to take on the galaxy is probably even more contrived than Cerberus?

[ImaginaryMatter]

I know it's early in the morning but is anyone down for the David drinking game?

[Bad King]

Who said I'm upset?

 

You thread boils down to "kill all aliens unless in sparing them you can kill more aliens later" and you label it "pro-human".

 

Seems legit.

 

I don't care who plays what. But call it what it is.

 

I label it "Ultimate pro-human" as in pro-human to the point of doing whatever it takes to weaken other species to maximise the relative power of humans. Again, it's role-playing not what I would do if I was playing rationally. I hope that you understand that using a role-playing thread to make claims about people's actual opinions is highly dubious to say the least.

[Bob from Accounting]

You seem to be one of the few 'evil' players on this forum who acknowledge such things for what they are.

 

I appreciate your honesty and self-awareness.

[grey_wind]

...Because of what I just said? Because fighting enemies who have no motive or purpose above 'I hate humans!' is poor writing? Because people have been asking for a batarian squadmate, and having batarians becoming one-dimensional mooks completely cripples any idea of them being a species instead of just target practice? Because having them be a force to take on the galaxy is probably even more contrived than Cerberus?

The Hegemony has been more or less ostracized by the rest of the galaxy, and they really have no one to blame for that but themselves. However, there is a lot of truth in their sentiment that the Council left them out to rot while they favoured the Alliance. Would it be that unreasonable that when they were the first to be attacked by the Reapers and the rest of the galaxy was even less inclined to help them than the other races, they would not take any means to prevent their genocide? You can write a fairly sympathetic and tragic tale of how the Batarians allied with the Reapers in the delusion that helping these monsters would spare them. It'd be even more powerful if they weren't indoctrinated into doing so.

 

You can also have Batarian allies, like a squadmate , to counterbalance the negativity; those who understand why their brethren are doing what they are doing, but decide that the rest of the galaxy comes before their own interests. It wouldn't even be a matter of resources to create a Batarian squadmate: just replace Vega or the Sexbot and you're good to go.

[ImaginaryMatter]

You can also have Batarian allies, like a squadmate , to counterbalance the negativity; those who understand why their brethren are doing what they are doing, but decide that the rest of the galaxy comes before their own interests. It wouldn't even be a matter of resources to create a Batarian squadmate: just replace Vega or the Sexbot and you're good to go.

 

I can easily imagine a Batarian filling in as the Soldier roll. Cya, James.

 

Not that I dislike James as a character, I just dislike him as a squadmate.

[Bad King]

You seem to be one of the few 'evil' players on this forum who acknowledge such things for what they are.

 

I appreciate your honesty and self-awareness.

 

Make no mistake: I still agree with many of the renegade decisions in the Mass Effect series, but the ultimate pro-human thread is far more extreme in the motivations behind the decisions noted (and is actually a mix of paragon and renegade decisions).

[Bad King]

I can easily imagine a Batarian filling in as the Soldier roll. Cya, James.

 

Not that I dislike James as a character, I just dislike him as a squadmate.

 

I was praying for a batarian squadmate prior to ME3: I was vary disappointed when we instead got Vega.

[Bob from Accounting]

It wouldn't be 'powerful' at all.

[grey_wind]

It wouldn't be 'powerful' at all.

My bad. Not enough heroism?

[Bob from Accounting]

Make no mistake: I still agree with many of the renegade decisions in the Mass Effect series, but the ultimate pro-human thread is far more extreme in the motivations behind the decisions noted (and is actually a mix of paragon and renegade decisions).

 

There was perhaps a time where I would have guessed that it was all a role-playing act.

 

But not anymore. I think, seeing some of these people speak, that they actually believe it, when it's convenient. A video game tells them that 'Renegades hate aliens,' and they well and truly do so for the duration of their game. And when they're online.

 

They hold on to this belief tooth and nail. I've managed to press to the truth out of a few, and they admit, gritting their teeth the whole time, it's a video game belief. But they clearly despise doing so. And despise me all the more for prying it out of them. They do everything they can to hold onto it.

 

It's rather unnerving to imagine what they could be convinced into believing and doing if the world around them actually accepted such beliefs, rather than condemning them. Makes it a bit easier to understand how despots are able to cultivate castes of thugs to enforce their power.

 

Perhaps most ironically at all, these people seem to overwhelmingly be the ones the most angry and opposed to the idea of the story or stories in general 'telling' them any moral.

[DeinonSlayer]

The Hegemony has been more or less ostracized by the rest of the galaxy, and they really have no one to blame for that but themselves. However, there is a lot of truth in their sentiment that the Council left them out to rot while they favoured the Alliance. Would it be that unreasonable that when they were the first to be attacked by the Reapers and the rest of the galaxy was even less inclined to help them than the other races, they would not take any means to prevent their genocide? You can write a fairly sympathetic and tragic tale of how the Batarians allied with the Reapers in the delusion that helping these monsters would spare them. It'd be even more powerful if they weren't indoctrinated into doing so.

You can also have Batarian allies, like a squadmate , to counterbalance the negativity; those who understand why their brethren are doing what they are doing, but decide that the rest of the galaxy comes before their own interests. It wouldn't even be a matter of resources to create a Batarian squadmate: just replace Vega or the Sexbot and you're good to go.

I like this. Even if we aren't talking about including a Batarian squadmate.

I suggested a while back that over the course of the war, you could accumulate aliens in the War Room who coordinate activity with their home fleets. Pick up two Turians after Tuchanka (or a Turian and a Salarian if you sabotaged the cure). Pick up an Asari after the coup. Pick up two Quarians, one Quarian and one Geth platform, or one (larger) Geth after Rannoch depending on what you do. Pick up a Batarian after encountering their representative (unless you shoot Balak in ME3, in which case they devoted themselves to sabotaging the Alliance everywhere they could). Give them ME2-style background conversations with content changing depending on what you do in-game, professional in the war room, personal outside it. Run across them in the mess hall or the hangar deck, hear their perspectives.

-Show me the Geth platform setting off the metal detector and being made to go through it, over and over again.
-Show me a Quarian showing a Turian a holo of her daughter, musing that she might actually get to experience life with siblings.
-Show me James spotting for the Batarian in the weight room.

It really wouldn't take much of an investment in resources. Perhaps two dozen little conversations, showing that as the war goes on, it's actually getting previously-maligned races working together.