12895 réponses à ce sujet

[Chari]

I dunno. I might just be looking at it from a different vantage point as a non-religious person, but I don't think Bull choosing himself to abandon the Qun would make him "not Iron Bull" anymore. He would be the same person, but just choosing a different path for himself. I do hope there's a possibility of him leaving the Qun, but I'm never going to tell him to do it himself, I want the decision to be his. Especially if I play as a mage who develops a relationship with him. 

One's vision of the world (including philosophy, religious/non-religious beliefs, mindset, etc) is a big part of any personality, any person. It is what makes an individual, a sentient self-conscious being - the way one percieves the world, themself and others. Change one of them - and it's already a slightly different person. You can't just abandon them like they're some clothes you throw away like trash - big changes like that always leave scars - good ones, bad ones, big ones and small ones. The Qun is both philosophy and a religion, hence it is not just a set of rules and rituals, it is a way of life, a way of thinking

As far as we were told: "[PW]: The only folks The Iron Bull has trouble with are those who go looking for fights about the Qunari. He isn’t trying to convert anybody, but he’s not going to apologize for his way of life"

[daveliam]

I dunno. I might just be looking at it from a different vantage point as a non-religious person, but I don't think Bull choosing himself to abandon the Qun would make him "not Iron Bull" anymore. He would be the same person, but just choosing a different path for himself. I do hope there's a possibility of him leaving the Qun, but I'm never going to tell him to do it himself, I want the decision to be his. Especially if I play as a mage who develops a relationship with him. 

 

This.  I agree 100% with this.  And I don't think that simply beginning a romantic relationship with him is this selfish "choose me or your religion" scenario that some people are trying to put forward.  Especially if IB makes the decisions about his religion without the PC creating an ultimatum. 

 

 

One's vision of the world (including philosophy, religious/non-religious beliefs, mindset, etc) is a big part of any personality, any person. It is what makes an individual, a sentient self-conscious being - the way one percieves the world, themself and others. Change one of them - and it's already a slightly different person. You can't just abandon them like they're some clothes you throw away like trash - big changes like that always leave scars - good ones, bad ones, big ones and small ones. The Qun is both philosophy and a religion, hence it is not just a set of rules and rituals, it is a way of life, a way of thinking

As far as we were told: "[PW]: The only folks The Iron Bull has trouble with are those who go looking for fights about the Qunari. He isn’t trying to convert anybody, but he’s not going to apologize for his way of life"

 

It's called character development.  Characters will change because of their experiences with the Inquisitor.  If a character didn't change at all during the scope of the game, then I would question the writing because that's not only unrealistic, but uninteresting as well.

[Chari]

This.  I agree 100% with this.  And I don't think that simply beginning a romantic relationship with him is this selfish "choose me or your religion" scenario that some people are trying to put forward.  Especially if IB makes the decisions about his religion without the PC creating an ultimatum. 

You can probably being a relationship with him and not harass him for being a qunari, ya know

At least I don't plan to. He can be as much of a qunari as he wants to

[JasonPogo]

They REALLY need to release some more images of this guys face.  He looks SO bad to me in the gameplay video.  Just my two cents.

[Former_Fiend]

See, me, I don't care if he sticks with it or not so long as it's his decision to come to. Of course, we, the player will help guide him to that situation but I don't want a "Abandon the qun or gtfo" option, or at least I wouldn't want that to be the only thing that comes down to the decision.

 

I'd like it to be something subtler. Like hardening Alistair or Leliana; we gave them advice and they came to their own conclusion.

 

I would also like an option that if Iron Bull abandons the qun, he still holds onto ideas from it. I'd like to see a moderate view point that says "Ok, the whole system isn't for me, but there is wisdom here. There are bits and pieces I can take from it that are worth holding onto, even if the whole is too restrictive for me."

[daveliam]

You can probably being a relationship with him and not harass him for being a qunari, ya know

At least I don't plan to. He can be as much of a qunari as he wants to

 

Which then makes me wonder why you leapt to the assumption that the PC would have to create this "choose me or the Qun" option.  Simply being in a relationship with him (particularly a romantic and non-reproductive one), puts him at odds with the Qun.  If he chooses to stay with the PC without the PC opting to create an ultimatum, then I don't see the issue with that storyline.

[HuldraDancer]

The way I look at the Iron Bull Qun thing is so long as he doesn't try to push his religion down my throat then I"m fine with it though then again it may be kind of uneasy with Mage players but I don't really plan to romance him with any Mages. I honestly find the Qun pretty interesting probably something that most of my PCs would not like to be a part of but it would be nice to learn more about it as a whole. And I think I'd feel pretty icky if I tried to make any character think that something they believe so strongly in is 'wrong' and try to change them 'for the better', unless my PCs really felt their friends lovers whatever where going down a very self destructive road but they'd have to feel really sure that was the case then.

[Former_Fiend]

Weekes was pretty clear on the whole, "He's not here to convert anyone" thing. 

 

Then again, the Arishok wasn't in Kirkwall to convert anyone, either...

 

Anyway, yea, Bull's not here to convert people so I don't think there's going to be any shoving of philosophies down throats. But at the same time, he's not going to apologize for being who he is.

 

So from the sound of it, my advice to anyone worried about a confrontation with Iron Bull over the qun is this: Don't start none, won't be none.

[Chari]

Which then makes me wonder why you leapt to the assumption that the PC would have to create this "choose me or the Qun" option.  Simply being in a relationship with him (particularly a romantic and non-reproductive one), puts him at odds with the Qun.  If he chooses to stay with the PC without the PC opting to create an ultimatum, then I don't see the issue with that storyline.

Because people here make this ultimatum:

 

 

Maybe he doesn't have to return home one day.  If we draw the comparison that Weekes made to Christianity:  Would a holiday only Christian choose his/her faith over his/her love?  Maybe, but maybe not.  I think there is leeway for IB to either extend his time away (with no intention of ever returning) or flat out leaving the Qun altogether if he thinks it conflicts with something he cares about more.  

 

 

It seems like an "all or nothing" kind of religion.  So it seems more likely to cause this "choice" to have to happen between faith and love, since they can be directly in conflict.  I'd like to see this explored a bit, to be honest.

 

 

If you want to be my friend, you need to not be working for my enslavement.

 

 

I dunno. I might just be looking at it from a different vantage point as a non-religious person, but I don't think Bull choosing himself to abandon the Qun would make him "not Iron Bull" anymore. He would be the same person, but just choosing a different path for himself. I do hope there's a possibility of him leaving the Qun

 

I personally believe that Iron Bull can be romanced without him abandoning the Qun. Maybe in this case the romance will be less sexual and more platonic, maybe he'll have to return home one day. I don't see why you guys think and hope that he'll have to choose between his faith and his love. And what is this with all the I-like-characters-but-want-them-to-abandon-their-beliefs-philosophy-mindset lately? At first Cassandra, now Iron Bull... Disturbing

[HuldraDancer]

Thats the way I'm going to handle it I don't plan to start anything unless he tries to but I doubt Iron Bull will be starting any, actually I'm more worried about companions trying to start trouble with one another. I will say too that I'm very surprised to hear that a lot of people are saying that Iron Bull is okay with Cole I would have really thought that he wouldn't like Cole cause of being freaked out by demons. (Not saying Cole is a demon just saying I was suspecting Iron Bull to see him as one)

[Chari]

Thats the way I'm going to handle it I don't plan to start anything unless he tries to but I doubt Iron Bull will be starting any, actually I'm more worried about companions trying to start trouble with one another. I will say too that I'm very surprised to hear that a lot of people are saying that Iron Bull is okay with Cole I would have really thought that he wouldn't like Cole cause of being freaked out by demons. (Not saying Cole is a demon just saying I was suspecting Iron Bull to see him as one)

That's indeed interesting

And Iron Bull not getting along with Varric...

Welp, just as before, our companions never tire of surprising us

[Former_Fiend]

Thats the way I'm going to handle it I don't plan to start anything unless he tries to but I doubt Iron Bull will be starting any, actually I'm more worried about companions trying to start trouble with one another. I will say too that I'm very surprised to hear that a lot of people are saying that Iron Bull is okay with Cole I would have really thought that he wouldn't like Cole cause of being freaked out by demons. (Not saying Cole is a demon just saying I was suspecting Iron Bull to see him as one)

 

A lot of people were surprised by Bull being accepting of Cole. But given that Weekes is writing both of them and he's the source on that, it's hard to argue. 

[Chernaya]

Because people here make this ultimatum:

 

I personally believe that Iron Bull can be romanced without him abandoning the Qun. Maybe in this case the romance will be less sexual and more platonic, maybe he'll have to return home one day. I don't see why you guys think and hope that he'll have to choose between his faith and his love. And what is this with all the I-like-characters-but-want-them-to-abandon-their-beliefs-philosophy-mindset lately? At first Cassandra, now Iron Bull... Disturbing

 

Not really disturbing to me. if someone I love supports an ideal that would kill or oppress me as soon as it was up to them, I would wish they would make the decision to leave it if their love for me was that strong. If not, I would leave the relationship and wish them the best, because it would just be too weird. If he wished to keep believing in his own parts of it, that's fine by me, but personally I don't want to invest in a romantic relationship if one day he's just going to leave me to go somewhere I can't go in fear for my life or well-being. 

 

Also, it's pretty evident his faith in it may already be wavering. I don't plan to tell him what to do, but if he's only choosing to stay with the Qun because that's how he was raised and it isn't really something he truly believes in and he's just finding that out, then I'll support him and tell him to do what he really wants. 

[Wulfram]

I think there's a difference between getting into a relationship and then demanding that they change, and refusing to enter into a relationship unless they do change

[Chari]

Not really disturbing to me. if someone I love supports an ideal that would kill or oppress me as soon as it was up to them, I would wish they would make the decision to leave it if their love for me was that strong. If not, I would leave the relationship and wish them the best, because it would just be too weird. If he wished to keep believing in his own parts of it, that's fine by me, but personally I don't want to invest in a romantic relationship if one day he's just going to leave me to go somewhere I can't go in fear for my life or well-being. 

Err, why would you even try to pursue a romantic relationship with someone who supports a system which can potentially hurt you? 

If your beliefs clash without any hope for coexisting, don't mix, don't befriend, don't love. It'll lead only to misery - either one of you manipulating the other one to abandon who they are, or one of you suffering the consequences of the said beliefs

[HuldraDancer]

That's indeed interesting

And Iron Bull not getting along with Varric...

Welp, just as before, our companions never tire of surprising us

A lot of people were surprised by Bull being accepting of Cole. But given that Weekes is writing both of them and he's the source on that, it's hard to argue. 

 

Yeah that was something else that caught me off guard I wasn't expecting Varric and Iron Bull to be at ends but apparently I'm really bad at calling anything to do with companions. I am curious though as to why Iron Bull wouldn't be freaked out by Cole considering he's a spirit or demon or whatever and the Qun seems to have a very different look on the Fade so that should be interesting to see them interact at least. I'm just praying I'm not going to have to play babysitter again like in DA2 

[Chernaya]

Err, why would you even try to pursue a romantic relationship with someone who supports a system which can potentially hurt you? 

If your beliefs clash without any hope for coexisting, don't mix, don't befriend, don't love. It'll lead only to misery - either one of you manipulating the other one to abandon who they are, or one of you suffering the consequences of the said beliefs

 

Because you can fall in love with someone despite things like that, over time. It's one of the reasons I want to see what happens when something like this is presented in the story, and how it's handled. I don't think it needs to lead to misery. The Qun has given him an identity crisis and PTSD, I want him to find something that gives him happiness instead of those things. Not necessarily true love, but a different way of life where he doesn't have to feel guilty about doing what he enjoys. 

[Chernaya]

Yeah that was something else that caught me off guard I wasn't expecting Varric and Iron Bull to be at ends but apparently I'm really bad at calling anything to do with companions. I am curious though as to why Iron Bull wouldn't be freaked out by Cole considering he's a spirit or demon or whatever and the Qun seems to have a very different look on the Fade so that should be interesting to see them interact at least. I'm just praying I'm not going to have to play babysitter again like in DA2 

 

Varric is probably just still wary after what happened in Kirkwall, but I'm really hoping that they develop a friendship as the story goes on. If that's the only thing diving them, I think they have the potential to be really great friends. And I think he will be freaked out by him, but knows it's not his call to say if Cole is a part of the Inquisition or not. It will be interesting to see how he reacts to him, though. xD

[Chari]

I'm just praying I'm not going to have to play babysitter again like in DA2 

Hawke and Aveline were like parents of a family full of little kids

Wasn't there a hilarious comic on Tumblr about it?..

[Chari]

Because you can fall in love with someone despite things like that, over time. It's one of the reasons I want to see what happens when something like this is presented in the story, and how it's handled. I don't think it needs to lead to misery. The Qun has given him an identity crisis and PTSD, I want him to find something that gives him happiness instead of those things. Not necessarily true love, but a different way of life where he doesn't have to feel guilty about doing what he enjoys. 

You know, I'm getting a but personal, but nothing angers me more than people who suddenly get into your life, demand you to change because "they know better" and try to destroy all the ties you have to your family and old friends

You may call it love, I call it crossing the line of personal boundaries. Only a person him/herself can decide what to do with her/his life, not some random stalker with a crush

The life sure didn't prove that such scenarios mostly end badly, did it?..

[Chernaya]

You know, I'm getting a but personal, but nothing angers me more than people who suddenly get into your life, demand you to change because "they know better" and try to destroy all the ties you have to your family and old friends

You may call it love, I call it crossing the line of personal boundaries. Only a person him/herself can decide what to do with her/his life, not some random stalker with a crush

The life sure didn't prove that such scenarios mostly end badly, did it?..

 

I would never demand any such thing of a person, ever. I can't help what I may think of it, though. It's up to the person making the decision what they call it, or think it is. It depends on them deciding how they truly feel about each option, because most of us do end up having to make such decisions that are really difficult. We can't always have everything we want and end up needing to make a choice.  If he ended up thinking his old life is more important to him, I would let him go without question even if I couldn't stay with him. He would have his boundaries and I would have mine. ...I don't really know what you mean about "random stalker with a crush" though, because I'm basing my thoughts off a scenario where there's a completely mutual and deep relationship going on where both people feel strongly for each other. 

[Chari]

I would never demand any such thing of a person, ever. I can't help what I may think of it, though. It's up to the person making the decision what they call it, or think it is. It depends on them deciding how they truly feel about each option, because most of us do end up having to make such decisions that are really difficult. We can't always have everything we want and end up needing to make a choice.  If he ended up thinking his old life is more important to him, I would let him go without question even if I couldn't stay with him. He would have his boundaries and I would have mine. ...I don't really know what you mean about "random stalker with a crush" though, because I'm basing my thoughts off a scenario where there's a completely mutual and deep relationship going on where both people feel strongly for each other. 

Yet you want to have such a choice in the game... jesus...

In this scenario the Inquisitor looks like a shallow clingy and selfish teenager who wants all or nothing. "Choose me or the Qun" - she/he says and thinks that she/he knows better what to with IB's life than IB does. Weird

How can it be mutual and deep if you can't even accept his religious beliefs? It's like wanting Anders but without his freedom obsession or Cassandra without her andrastian beliefs. Accept or don't even bother, if you truly care about them

[MilaBanilla]

They REALLY need to release some more images of this guys face.  He looks SO bad to me in the gameplay video.  Just my two cents.

 

 

You did not just use Iron Bull "bad'' in the same sentence without the a** part  

 

He looked great in the gameplay  but I have to agree. More pics of his face would be great 

[Chernaya]

Yet you want to have such a choice in the game... jesus...

In this scenario the Inquisitor looks like a shallow clingy and selfish teenager who wants all or nothing. "Choose me or the Qun" - she/he says and thinks that she/he knows better what to with IB's life than IB does. Weird

How can it be mutual and deep if you can't even accept his religious beliefs? It's like wanting Anders but without his freedom obsession or Cassandra without her andrastian beliefs. Accept or don't even bother, if you truly cares about them

 

I don't really see it that way, because I would never say "choose me or the Qun". I would let him make his own choice with pressuring him like that. It would be my own choice to make by myself if I wanted to stay after that, though. I don't think I know what's best for him, but I can have a feeling on it based on what he's going through because of it. But like I said... I don't plan on giving an ultimatum.  If I just so happened to end up loving him despite not agreeing with him on every single thing, it wouldn't stop me from caring about him and his beliefs. Relationships and love can still exist with such differences, in my opinion. I'm not trying to say I'm right or wrong, just what I feel about it.   If this topic is causing you stress though, I apologize. 

 

 

 

*snip*

 

You did not just use Iron Bull "bad'' in the same sentence without the a** part  

 

He looked great in the gameplay  but I have to agree. More pics of his face would be great 

 

I don't dislike what we've seen of his face so far, but I do wonder why we're getting so few glimpses of it. They might still be tweaking it, just a hunch. 

[Chari]

I don't really see it that way, because I would never say "choose me or the Qun". I would let him make his own choice with pressuring him like that. It would be my own choice to make by myself if I wanted to stay after that, though. I don't think I know what's best for him, but I can have a feeling on it based on what he's going through because of it. But like I said... I don't plan on giving an ultimatum.  If I just so happened to end up loving him despite not agreeing with him on every single thing, it wouldn't stop me from caring about him and his beliefs. Relationships and love can still exist with such differences, in my opinion. I'm not trying to say I'm right or wrong, just what I feel about it.    If this topic is causing you stress though, I apologize. 

 

You guys yourselves talked about IB leaving the Qun for the sake of his relationship with the Inquisitor. This is an ultimatum. A selfish one as well. I get it that you folk dislike the Qun, but either accept IB as a qunari (or qunari-lite or whatever), or don't even bother. Since it seems he won't just let anyone harass him for being one. And that's great because the amount of people in this fandom who wishes they could change their favourite characters' religious beliefs (Cassandra, Iron Bull, Lelianna etc), sexualities (straight, bi or gay) and mindsets (Anders) is just disturbing