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[Ryzaki]

Oh Vivi is definitely condescending and has a complex but the way she does it I can't help but like her. But agreed they both come across as insecure at moments.

 

Still I have to admit Dorian's gift giving scene was excellent. Why do the characters I don't like always have the best friendship scenes first Morrigan now Dorian. Bah.

[Nefla]

I romanced him with my first inquisitor (who was also the only one I've played the DLC with so far) but I'm definitely going to go back and make sure I've done his personal quest with all my characters.

 

Spoiler

Did Cassandra's support over the inquisitor's supposed proposal, and then pretty much actually proposing and having Bull accept make anyone else squeal?

[Ryzaki]

Replaying Bull's Demands of the Qun quest and

 

Spoiler

I think the actual trigger for Bull's betrayal is probably the attempted assassination conversation where you do reassure him that he doesn't need the Qun. Since that conversation never happens if you don't do the quest he never questions the view of the Qun always being right (Even if you save the chargers. In that case he'd most likely see himself as broken and in need of a reeducation because he choose his men over the mission and that's a big qunari no no.)  thus you having to kill him. And obviously you can't get that convo if the chargers are dead since you get funeral scene.

[Sui Causa]

Replaying Bull's Demands of the Qun quest and

 

Spoiler

I think the actual trigger for Bull's betrayal is probably the attempted assassination conversation where you do reassure him that he doesn't need the Qun. Since that conversation never happens if you don't do the quest he never questions the view of the Qun always being right (Even if you save the chargers. In that case he'd most likely see himself as broken and in need of a reeducation because he choose his men over the mission and that's a big qunari no no.)  thus you having to kill him. And obviously you can't get that convo if the chargers are dead since you get funeral scene.

Spoiler

Yeah. It's not love of the chargers that does it, or love of the Inquisitor or anything like that. Hissrad always struggled with those feelings, but it never stopped him from doing his duty, it just broke him harder along the way. It's getting him out of the Qun's control that does it, freeing him from the need to follow orders and be nothing but a tool. You gotta give him that chance to be a person, you gotta tell him it's okay to find his own path. Then he takes that support and he goddamn runs with it, LOL. As we can see with the fluffy romantic qunari we Charger-Lovers got in the DLC.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Spoiler

After having played both routes in Trespasser, I have to say storytelling-wise I actually prefer Hissrad betraying you over him staying The Iron Bull. It is a really powerful scene and has great implications later when talking to Solas. Solas talks about how like any big organization the Inquisition will face corruption and betrayal. The Inquisitor says it is not that simple and Solas retorts "Really? How about we ask your friend The Iron Bull? Tell me, where is he?" That dialogue had a lot more impact than the alternative where he stays as The Iron Bull. Plus I was glad we could give him a warrior's death. I'm sure he would have his death no other way than at the hands of a Basalit-an.

[Boost32]

By the way guys 
 

Spoiler

As you know, we are given 6 different options in the last dialogue concerning the fate of the inquisition. Apart from the ones with the thumbs up icon have anyone tried the others? Is there really significant differences?

Spoiler

The ones of the left are the ones were the Inquisitor doesnt disband the Inquisition (from top to bottom, Agressive, Happy and Sad options), the ones from the right is where him/her disband the Inquisition (the options are the same emotionsas the doesnt disband one).

[Qun00]

So, what exactly is the role of that Qunari woman leading the others in the DLC?

Certainly not a soldier or captain. No women are assigned to military roles under the Qun.

[Sui Causa]

So, what exactly is the role of that Qunari woman leading the others in the DLC?

Certainly not a soldier or captain. No women are assigned to military roles under the Qun.

She's part of the Ben-Hassrath, a special section of it. The Ben-Hassrath do not limit roles by men or women, as both are viable options when it comes to the work they do. If you have Iron Bull with you during the events of the DLC he explains it all to you. :3

[Mengor]

Sui, since you are an expert on this subject, I would like you to enlight me with your advice . I´ll probably cover this is in another fic (still gathering ideas though)

 

So Iron Bull and me are not 100% sure how to carry out our sex now

Spoiler

I´ve lost a hand. Good thing I haven´t lost the entire life, phew...

. He keeps suggesting to use ropes which is ok with me  However, how exactly? 

Spoiler

If I ride him I might lose the balance. Right? Maybe we should try another stance for that?

[th3warr1or]

Spoiler

After having played both routes in Trespasser, I have to say storytelling-wise I actually prefer Hissrad betraying you over him staying The Iron Bull. It is a really powerful scene and has great implications later when talking to Solas. Solas talks about how like any big organization the Inquisition will face corruption and betrayal. The Inquisitor says it is not that simple and Solas retorts "Really? How about we ask your friend The Iron Bull? Tell me, where is he?" That dialogue had a lot more impact than the alternative where he stays as The Iron Bull. Plus I was glad we could give him a warrior's death. I'm sure he would have his death no other way than at the hands of a Basalit-an.

 

What is the alternative dialogue about corruption and betrayal?

[Fredward]

'Bout to start my Bullmance and I have a few quick questions: 1) Bull only has the discussion about killing a dragon with you if he was actually there right? It seems obvious but you never know. I want that 'you have a great ass Kadan' comment see and that's presumably gonna require killing a dragon without him. 2) a comment on youtube said that if you could delay the 'what you need' conversation until AFTER you give him the tooth it's much sweeter. But I can't find a video about it. I'm also not sure how the logistics of that would work. But! Does anyone know what he says/have a video about it?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What is the alternative dialogue about corruption and betrayal?

He just skips the special line and goes on with what he was saying. It has far less impact since he doesn't really address your counter but just moves on. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So, what exactly is the role of that Qunari woman leading the others in the DLC?

Certainly not a soldier or captain. No women are assigned to military roles under the Qun.

Here is the Codex entry about her: 

 

While we still have little information on their methods, our agents have obtained considerable information on Ben-Hassrath hierarchy and organizational structure. Strictly speaking, the entire group is under the jurisdiction of the Ariqun and would therefore be considered priests. The Qunari divide all Ben-Hassrath activities into three distinct categories: "Dangerous Purpose," "Dangerous Action," and "Dangerous Questions." Three priests form a mini-triumvirate that manages all their operations, with each priest presiding over actions in a single category. We have an ongoing mission to identify the leader of the "Dangerous Questions" branch, which seems to handle the vast majority of the Qunari intelligence gathering and sabotage missions. "Dangerous Actions" appears to be the branch responsible for enforcement; their agents almost never leave Qunari-controlled territory except to hunt defectors. The branch we have had the most contact with has been "Dangerous Purpose."

 

This division, run by a priestess called the Viddasala, or "one who converts purpose," handles the conversion of foreigners, the reeducation of Qunari dissidents, and the collection and quarantine of magic. Things that, by Qunari definition, are threats to themselves and others by nature.

 

Our attempts to infiltrate the Qunari "reeducation" camps have largely proven unsuccessful. The Ben-Hassrath are all too good at spotting our agents among their converts; most spies are sent away with a patronizing remark, and the few who have been admitted to one of their "viddathlok" facilities have never reported back. We will instead redouble our efforts to locate and infiltrate one of their "darvaarad" magical quarantine sites.

 

Charter

[Fredward]

What is the alternative dialogue about corruption and betrayal?

 

Spoiler

He mentions that the qunari spies in the Inquisition stumbled over his spies in the Inquisition. The point communicates regardless of whether or not Bull betrays (the Inquisition has become too big, unwieldy and cumbersome and spies could be everywhere) you but I imagine if he DOES betray you it's more... poignant.

[Boost32]

(snip)

I wish Leliana was competent as the Qunari at spotting spies.

[Ryzaki]

He just skips the special line and goes on with what he was saying. It has far less impact since he doesn't really address your counter but just moves on. 

Spoiler

I think the fact that you had qunari spies in your organization to begin with proved his point. IB wasn't necessary to make it.

[stop_him]

'Bout to start my Bullmance and I have a few quick questions: 1) Bull only has the discussion about killing a dragon with you if he was actually there right? It seems obvious but you never know. I want that 'you have a great ass Kadan' comment see and that's presumably gonna require killing a dragon without him. 2) a comment on youtube said that if you could delay the 'what you need' conversation until AFTER you give him the tooth it's much sweeter. But I can't find a video about it. I'm also not sure how the logistics of that would work. But! Does anyone know what he says/have a video about it?

I think the IB romance is all approval based. I could not get certain convos to trigger until I purposefully increased his approval by doing judgments. 

1. IB has the drinking convo about killing dragons over brews regardless of whether he was present

2. Never been able to achieve because of approval 

[Lady Nuggins]

Spoiler

You know something: I'm surprised people were surprised that Bull turned on you if you let his men die. 

What.

Did.

You.

EXPECT?!

 

But yeah, CALLED IT!!

 

And @Mengor: Yeah, I thought some thoughts and theories but being I'm still dealing with a hangover from Trespasser, likely won't touch of them for a while.

 

If you're referring to anything Bull related though: none at the moment being no matter where you took his character arc; I think they did all they could in terms of character development.

 

Spoiler

If he sticks with the Qun; he's dead because you had to kill him and no one trusts Tal Vashoth in the south. But if his Charges are alive and kicking (along you do his personal mission being I heard that he still betrays you if you didn't do it); he finally comes to terms with being Tal Vashoth (giving the best F you ever to that Qun lady. I forget what she's called right now) and Krem and co still do merc work around Thedas and he may even have an relationship with the Inquisitor or Dorian. I can't really think of what else you can do more with him being I think they wrapped it all nice in a bow (one nicer than the other obviously but still).

 

Only thing I wish for his character is happiness; which he desrives (unless you killed the Chargers. Then yeah, screw you) after the hell he's been though.

 

That's not saying I wouldn't want to see Iron Bull come back again in some shape or form (like a cameo or something). And being it seems like the Inquisitor is going to play some form of role in DA4 (They and Solas are connected to each other and they did live in the end swearing to either redeem/kill Solas); part of me kinda wants to see Bull by my canon's Inquisitor's side when she goes up to Tevinter due to CLIFFHANGER YEAH!!. Otherwise, heh

 

 

Spoiler

Something that's struck me hard about Iron Bull betraying you is that he didn't do it until he was directly ordered. He knew, but he didn't harm the inquisitor in any way even though he had ample time to do it. They had just killed their way through so many qunari, Iron Bull knows what the Inquisitor is capable of... If he wanted to kill the Inquisitor he could have done it, and done it in a way that he knew wouldn't end with his death.

I don't think Iron Bull thought for a second he'd win that fight. But he had nothing but the Qun at that point, and the power of the Qun is so strong that when he's ordered to die, he does it instantly and without regrets.

Hissrad wasn't a bad person. Hissrad in wot2 was a man torn apart by wanting to do good as a qunari and wanting to be good at being a qunari, the only thing he knows.

In demands of the Qun, he's caught between what he wants to do, and what he has to do, and its on such a razors edge the Inquisitor makes the call. If you sacrifice the chargers, Hissrad is reeducated on the spot that there is only certainty in the Qun.

I really can't hate Qun! Iron Bull because he was never given a chance to be anything other than what he was. Talvashoth Iron Bull is proof that the first chance he was given to be something good, he ran with it and never looked back.

Basically, if Bull turns on you it's because you never gave him a chance to be anything better.

 

Spoiler

My thoughts exactly.

 

When Bull became close to the Chargers, he began to taste a life in which he could build relationships that mattered. A life where he could genuinely care about those close to him, and put them first. When you order him to sacrifice them, you are effectively telling him that relationships don't matter, after all. Lives don't matter, people don't matter. All that matters is the Qun, and his role in it.

 

And so that is who he is, even in a "romance." He is Hissrad. He is a tool of the Qun. His job was to get close to the Inquisitor, and observe the Inquisition, and that's exactly what he did. He has no reason to preserve his relationship with you, because you have already reminded him that it was never important.

 

But I think the fact that his dialogue is nearly identical whether he's Qunari or Tal-Vashoth speaks to how he compartmentalizes his identity. He created the Iron Bull persona to hide his role in the Qun, but by the time we meet him, he has already slipped so far into it that he's not sure how much of it is just an act. He's good at playing Iron Bull because Iron Bull is who he enjoys being. I think, even after being reaffirmed as Qunari, that persona is real for him. He's just able to drop it when the time comes, because he held onto the Hissrad side of himself. Whereas a Tal-Vashoth Bull no longer has to hang onto Hissrad, and so he lets that identity go.

[Lady Nuggins]

I am doing something wrong or Iron Bull has no romantic content in Trepasser? I've tried everything but all I get I one phrase at his party.

 

Yeah...

 

Spoiler

The worst part is, I played this right after watching my roommate do it with the Cullen romance, and that one has... a lot of content. A lot of special scenes. So I got so stoked about what equivalent scenes I would get with Bull, and then... there weren't any? I haven't looked up the other romances yet, but from what I gather, they all got some kind of extra intimate scene except for Bull.

 

And also, when you bring up marriage, and Bull makes that joke about the chandelier, the Inquisitor sounds... kind of upset, actually, that he's not taking it seriously. I loved the line, and I never really considered them the marrying type of couple, anyway, but it was a really weird note to leave on. Like, why have our character bring it up if it's just going to be brushed off like that?

 

I don't know. I get that they probably couldn't do a kiss or something, due to the size issues they always run into with him, and maybe they couldn't come up with a romantic scene due to the potential betrayal of a Qun!Bull so soon after, but... I honestly feel pretty shafted about this, and it really put a damper on the whole DLC for me.

 

Like, c'mon Bioware, the Red Jennies made me one of their own, but the Chargers didn't? They could have given us that much!

[NoRmAnDy-SR2]

Yeah...
 

Spoiler

The worst part is, I played this right after watching my roommate do it with the Cullen romance, and that one has... a lot of content. A lot of special scenes. So I got so stoked about what equivalent scenes I would get with Bull, and then... there weren't any? I haven't looked up the other romances yet, but from what I gather, they all got some kind of extra intimate scene except for Bull.
 
And also, when you bring up marriage, and Bull makes that joke about the chandelier, the Inquisitor sounds... kind of upset, actually, that he's not taking it seriously. I loved the line, and I never really considered them the marrying type of couple, anyway, but it was a really weird note to leave on. Like, why have our character bring it up if it's just going to be brushed off like that?
 
I don't know. I get that they probably couldn't do a kiss or something, due to the size issues they always run into with him, and maybe they couldn't come up with a romantic scene due to the potential betrayal of a Qun!Bull so soon after, but... I honestly feel pretty shafted about this, and it really put a damper on the whole DLC for me.
 
Like, c'mon Bioware, the Red Jennies made me one of their own, but the Chargers didn't? They could have given us that much!

 

I think they got too focused on Bull/Dorian content. It has way too much content compared to their romance with Inky,

[Rekkampum]

Spoiler

My thoughts exactly.

 

When Bull became close to the Chargers, he began to taste a life in which he could build relationships that mattered. A life where he could genuinely care about those close to him, and put them first. When you order him to sacrifice them, you are effectively telling him that relationships don't matter, after all. Lives don't matter, people don't matter. All that matters is the Qun, and his role in it.

 

And so that is who he is, even in a "romance." He is Hissrad. He is a tool of the Qun. His job was to get close to the Inquisitor, and observe the Inquisition, and that's exactly what he did. He has no reason to preserve his relationship with you, because you have already reminded him that it was never important.

 

But I think the fact that his dialogue is nearly identical whether he's Qunari or Tal-Vashoth speaks to how he compartmentalizes his identity. He created the Iron Bull persona to hide his role in the Qun, but by the time we meet him, he has already slipped so far into it that he's not sure how much of it is just an act. He's good at playing Iron Bull because Iron Bull is who he enjoys being. I think, even after being reaffirmed as Qunari, that persona is real for him. He's just able to drop it when the time comes, because he held onto the Hissrad side of himself. Whereas a Tal-Vashoth Bull no longer has to hang onto Hissrad, and so he lets that identity go.

 

Spoiler

I wouldn't say that his relationship with the Inquisitor isn't important. It's just not going to come before his duty to the Qun, which is pretty much the code by which he lives. As a result, he's no longer torn between pursuing his own personal desires and his social responsibilities; he has the confidence and resolve necessary to set aside the former to fulfill his role, which he equates with having purpose and security from becoming what the Tal-Vashoth he's been fighting for years became. What I find interesting, aside from the "bas/boss" pun, is that he claims it's nothing personal, even if you were in a relationship with him and did his companion quest. Of course, that seems impossible as he is literally severing a bond you formed with him symbolically, but upon hearing Cole speak about his feelings - I brought him just to get his quirky input - I think it's clear that The Iron Bull has always been a person ready to do the unthinkable if his duty called for it.

 

It's very likely The Iron Bull does have feelings about what he would've done had he not been killed, but had already steeled himself against them. Posing as a Tal-Vashoth during his years undercover led him to an identity crisis which made it hard for him to uphold that as seen by his ties to the Chargers, but sacrificing them ultimately reaffirmed it, and once he mourned them, he had no other regrets. Sten did similar with high approval, calling you kadan -which seems to be more of an honorific than anything explicitly romantic- and showing a newfound respect for the HoF, but that didn't overrule his own convictions to his duty either; if they did invade and he had to fight the HoF, he would've without hesitation.

 

So yeah, it burned that I did end up fighting him, but it made sense given his situation.

[Hellion Rex]

Yeah...

 

Spoiler

The worst part is, I played this right after watching my roommate do it with the Cullen romance, and that one has... a lot of content. A lot of special scenes. So I got so stoked about what equivalent scenes I would get with Bull, and then... there weren't any? I haven't looked up the other romances yet, but from what I gather, they all got some kind of extra intimate scene except for Bull.

 

And also, when you bring up marriage, and Bull makes that joke about the chandelier, the Inquisitor sounds... kind of upset, actually, that he's not taking it seriously. I loved the line, and I never really considered them the marrying type of couple, anyway, but it was a really weird note to leave on. Like, why have our character bring it up if it's just going to be brushed off like that?

 

I don't know. I get that they probably couldn't do a kiss or something, due to the size issues they always run into with him, and maybe they couldn't come up with a romantic scene due to the potential betrayal of a Qun!Bull so soon after, but... I honestly feel pretty shafted about this, and it really put a damper on the whole DLC for me.

 

Like, c'mon Bioware, the Red Jennies made me one of their own, but the Chargers didn't? They could have given us that much!

Wait, what?

 

Spoiler

After Bull made the initial joke, he continued on to say we could maybe do something after the Council was concluded. He didn't dismiss it entirely.

 

Though I will say that I'm pretty furious that other romances got more content than Bull got.

[Ryzaki]

I think they got too focused on Bull/Dorian content. It has way too much content compared to their romance with Inky,

 

Because all the complaints. Still wtf. Most of the romance content is restricted to one liners. >_>

 

Also.

 

NOW IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE ALL HE SAYS IS BOSS AT NEGATIVE APPROVAL.

 

(sorry for the caps but that revelation).

 

Dat stealth insult. Go Bull.

 

And yeah Cullenmance got a lot of content. I played my cullenmancer after Bull and it was ridiculous.

[Hellion Rex]

I hate to say it, but I feel like Patrick threw a hell of a lot of content into the Solas stuff, leaving very little for Iron Bull.

[Sui Causa]

Spoiler

Idunno, Iron Bull saying that if the Inquisitor wanted something formal, Iron Bull would do it any way he wanted was pretty powerful. Qunari don't have any kind of hand-fastenings, he doesn't personally feel any need to do so. The fact that he's 100% willing to jump into it and do it if that's what the Inquisitor wants is a very powerful thing for me. ♥

 

I also love all of the affection he offers throughout the DLC. No brushing off your flirting with jokes, he just goes straight for the 'i love yous' and affection and that was really, really great. In two years he's gotten so comfortable in his relationship with the Inquisitor that he holds nothing back. It means a lot. ♥

 

More at the end would have been nice, either a reaction to the betrayal or a final romance scene. But either way, the spirit of the ending really stuck with me. The Inquisitor isn't ready to go down without a fight, and Iron Bull is right there for them.

 

Maybe I'm just easy to please, but I got everything I wanted and more out of DLC. My OT3 head canon has exploded into the sun and the feels will overwhelm me for ages to come!