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The Iron Bull Discussion Thread - Break out the casks!


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#12601
nightscrawl

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I wondered about that as well, since yes, all the Tamasrans are female.

 

My guess is that they didn't take that into account when coming up with that little tidbit. 

 

That said, since the Aqun-Athlok concept was introduced, whose to say that a biologically male Qunari couldn't take up the role of Tamasran. 

 

A trans woman is a woman, right? So that would still be a woman, performing in the role of a woman, and living as a woman, even if they are biologically male. Of course, it helped (with the narrative) that the guy who told us this was bi, so he likely wouldn't have cared either way as long as he got his rocks off, and can get it up to men and women, but that's not the case with everyone.

 

I dunno... I suppose I was imagining a Qunari going in there and and being like, "Nope, this just isn't doing it for me," and then leaving frustrated.



#12602
vertigomez

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FYI, the following is just my perception of in-game dialogue: I don't think aqun-athlok is necessarily a direct analogue to being transgender? It's a similar concept, but under the definition we're given, Cassandra would be considered aqun-athlok even though we know she identifies with her biological sex.

Bull is constantly trying to reconcile the way he feels with his obligation to the Qun. He thinks it's the only thing stopping him from going mad, so he tries to justify to himself the worldview he ALREADY has (Krem is a man, Cassandra is a warrior) by citing the Qun.

So, a biologically male tamassran would be considered aqun-athlok, but that's not exactly the same as we would picture being trans. That person would be a woman in Qunari understanding, but I don't think that necessarily means that person has to start wearing whatever clothes are culturally appropriate for Qunari women? It's more like, "you're a woman because you do this thing," but being a woman according to that society would not necessarily equate to dressing or comporting in a feminine manner. Does that make any sense at all?

edit; I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think if they'd decided Bull would make a good tamassran instead of a spy, he would still be allowed to express his everyday Manly McDragon self. His society would just consider him a woman.
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#12603
nightscrawl

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Lol "Manly McDragon."

 

Yes, that was helpful, thanks.

 

Unfortunately in this case, the aqun-athlok is presented as a concept in regard to Krem, who is trans, so it's a bit difficult to separate the two. Your remark that, "if they'd decided Bull would make a good tamassran instead of a spy," makes the Qun seem a lot more flexible than it appears, particularly as Sten presents it to the player.

 

However, I will say that that view does make a lot of sense. Let's say that you noticed a child is highly analytical and mentally organized. Obviously, you might want to train that child to do work in maintaining the Qunari breeding program. But this child is "male," and that is a "woman's" role. What to do? Well, if that child is going to be trained in that role because their natural abilities are a match for it, then they are a "woman." As Fenris tells us, the Qunari waste nothing, so I wouldn't be surprised if they went through some mental gymnastics to have their cake and eat it too in regard to gender roles. But I do wish it had been presented in that way, rather than as a way that enabled Bull to be accepting of Krem, or Cassandra, or hell, even a fem warrior Inquisitor.

 

Now, I'm not one of those to cry "retcon!" when new things are presented that might not completely jive with my previous view of something, but I do think it is one failing of the Dragon Age method of presenting cultures so subjectively, even going as far as having a majority of the codex presented subjectively. Or, you could look at that as a benefit, since it makes the setting seem more real for our character. They only really know what is presented to them, and in this case, the PC's primary interaction with Qunari is through Iron Bull.


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#12604
vertigomez

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Lol "Manly McDragon."
 
Yes, that was helpful, thanks.
 
Unfortunately in this case, the aqun-athlok is presented as a concept in regard to Krem, who is trans, so it's a bit difficult to separate the two. Your remark that, "if they'd decided Bull would make a good tamassran instead of a spy," makes the Qun seem a lot more flexible than it appears, particularly as Sten presents it to the player.
 
However, I will say that that view does make a lot of sense. Let's say that you noticed a child is highly analytical and mentally organized. Obviously, you might want to train that child to do work in maintaining the Qunari breeding program. But this child is "male," and that is a "woman's" role. What to do? Well, if that child is going to be trained in that role because their natural abilities are a match for it, then they are a "woman." As Fenris tells us, the Qunari waste nothing, so I wouldn't be surprised if they went through some mental gymnastics to have their cake and eat it too in regard to gender roles. But I do wish it had been presented in that way, rather than as a way that enabled Bull to be accepting of Krem, or Cassandra, or hell, even a fem warrior Inquisitor.
 
Now, I'm not one of those to cry "retcon!" when new things are presented that might not completely jive with my previous view of something, but I do think it is one failing of the Dragon Age method of presenting cultures so subjectively, even going as far as having a majority of the codex presented subjectively. Or, you could look at that as a benefit, since it makes the setting seem more real for our character. They only really know what is presented to them, and in this case, the PC's primary interaction with Qunari is through Iron Bull.


Glad I could help!

As far as 'mental gymnastics to have their cake and eat it too' - that is precisely right! As Gaider said, "it involves a weird sort of willful ignorance thing the Qunari are very good at." If a mage is basalit-an, they're not really a mage. They're just a worthy opponent who happens to have phenomenal cosmic power. shrruuuuug

In its own way, the Qun is incredibly flexible. Bull's entry in WoT2 is rife with this. After he suffers his breakdown in Seheron, he turns himself into the reeducators so that he may be "repaired or destroyed". The Qunari waste nothing. The book says, "Hissrad's mind remained sharp--too sharp, in fact, for the treacherous island of Seheron, where it could so easily shatter. He would be dangerous as a police agent, defiant as a soldier, and wasted as a laborer." So it's not without precedent for those in charge to say... 'you know what, this role doesn't suit you after all, THIS is who you truly are. Nope, don't question it, we know what we're doing this time. Sshhhh.' According the that line of thought, the Qun is perfect but people are imperfect, so when you get fitted to the "wrong" role it's not because the Qun is flawed... it's 'cause your tamassran screwed up when she decided you'd be a great dogwalker.

Sten and the Arishok both make it clear that they're in no position to explain the Qun to anyone. Another sign of Bull's inclinations. He has no problem trying to explain things that are explicitly not within his jurisdiction to explain. He's not a tamassran, so according to the Qun he has no business labeling Krem or anyone else aqun-athlok. But he wants to, because he believes one thing in his heart and needs to tell himself that his thoughts align with the Qun.

And yeah, it's all a bit of a subjective mess. :lol: Like when spirits (or are they demons?) and abominations (is that the same thing as being possessed?) come up. Bunch of stuff we have to interpret through the cultural lens of the characters who reside in this world.
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#12605
Mengor

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So guys... xD I need advice.

 

I have like 217 dollars and I don´t know if I should: 

 

"Dialog Wheel Flashes"

 

1) Get the Kadan Necklace (If they haven´t run out...)

2) Get better graphic card (Any 760... I´ve been told 750 cards are not that good)

 

I don´t know what to do :I If I get the necklace Iron Bull will approve this and my pc will get angry. And If I get card Iron Bull won´t be happy...  



#12606
TheJediSaint

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So guys... xD I need advice.

 

I have like 217 dollars and I don´t know if I should: 

 

"Dialog Wheel Flashes"

 

1) Get the Kadan Necklace (If they haven´t run out...)

2) Get better graphic card (Any 760... I´ve been told 750 cards are not that good)

 

I don´t know what to do :I If I get the necklace Iron Bull will approve this and my pc will get angry. And If I get card Iron Bull won´t be happy...  

 

I would recommend getting the card.  You'll get more out of it.

 

Also, 700 series cards are a generation behind.  You should consider the 960, or its AMD equivalents.


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#12607
Mengor

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I would recommend getting the card.  You'll get more out of it.

 

Also, 700 series cards are a generation behind.  You should consider the 960, or its AMD equivalents.

 

Thx :). I´ll check this. My problem is I am not very wealthy.... hehe xD. 

 

Edited: :o, that one has a very reasonable price. Reconsidering... with a better graphic card I could enjoy Iron Bull even more, setting up everything to HIGH xD.



#12608
nightscrawl

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Thx :). I´ll check this. My problem is I am not very wealthy.... hehe xD. 

 

Edited: :o, that one has a very reasonable price. Reconsidering... with a better graphic card I could enjoy Iron Bull even more, setting up everything to HIGH xD.

 

I have a 960 and run the game on Ultra + Fade-touched textures, and even 4x MSAA. It's a good card, very robust. Of course, I was able to do that with my previous 760 as well, but my cooling fans were unbearably loud as they struggled to keep up with the strain. (I'm sure it also helps that I play on a smallish 20in monitor at 1440x900 res.)

 

Really, I think if you're going to spend money on a new card you should try to go for something in the current gen if you possibly can, or just wait until you can afford it. They'll be sticking with the 900s for a while yet, so you have time.

 

 

That said, Hinterlands still sucks. I think it would suck regardless of what card you have. -_-

 

(Sorry for this digression into gfx cards...)



#12609
Gervaise

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On the subject of roles in the Qun, World of Thedas does say that they only deem one gender better than another for a particular role; it is not that they think it impossible for one gender to do the role of another but simply that they would not be as good at it as the "right" gender.   It also says that exceptions are occasionally made.   So whilst the Tamassrans are in overall charge of arranging sexual encounters, that doesn't mean that every time you need a bit of sexual pleasure only women are going to be involved.      Presumably the straight woman would be paired up with a male qunari and the appropriate contraception used if it was only meant to be for pleasure.   How does Bull know those ladies who serviced him were actual Tamassrans?    If the qunari is gay then presumably their sex for pleasure would be arranged accordingly.    I assume these are effectively state run brothels and thus the most efficient person for the job would be used each time.  

 

As for Bull's job description, he was deemed best placed in the Ben-Hassrath because of his quick mind and the organisation has a number of roles within it, so even though he was moved around he was still part of the Ben-Hassrath.     He was a spy because that is how the leadership decided he could best be used and he performed the role to their satisfaction for nearly 10 years before sent to report on the Inquisition.   Previously he had spent nearly as long on Seheron as an enforcer, far longer than most others lasted, so the original assessment of his skills seems to have been correct.     



#12610
nightscrawl

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On the subject of roles in the Qun, World of Thedas does say that they only deem one gender better than another for a particular role; it is not that they think it impossible for one gender to do the role of another but simply that they would not be as good at it as the "right" gender.   It also says that exceptions are occasionally made.   So whilst the Tamassrans are in overall charge of arranging sexual encounters, that doesn't mean that every time you need a bit of sexual pleasure only women are going to be involved.      Presumably the straight woman would be paired up with a male qunari and the appropriate contraception used if it was only meant to be for pleasure.   How does Bull know those ladies who serviced him were actual Tamassrans?    If the qunari is gay then presumably their sex for pleasure would be arranged accordingly.    I assume these are effectively state run brothels and thus the most efficient person for the job would be used each time.  

 

As for Bull's job description, he was deemed best placed in the Ben-Hassrath because of his quick mind and the organisation has a number of roles within it, so even though he was moved around he was still part of the Ben-Hassrath.     He was a spy because that is how the leadership decided he could best be used and he performed the role to their satisfaction for nearly 10 years before sent to report on the Inquisition.   Previously he had spent nearly as long on Seheron as an enforcer, far longer than most others lasted, so the original assessment of his skills seems to have been correct.     

 

Bull doesn't describe it as "arranging sexual encounters." He says that they "pop your cork whenever you need it," suggesting that it is the Tamassrans themselves that do it, hence my question.

 

We can only go by what Bull says, and I don't like to assume too much about something like that. I asked because I didn't know if there was some detail that I missed, or perhaps some other suggestive dialogue somewhere else, or if that contingency was simply overlooked by the devs particularly since it wouldn't matter in Bull's case because he is bi.



#12611
Mengor

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Spoiler


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#12612
Gervaise

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I think "popping your cork" was just his way of putting it.   It didn't mean the Tamassrans were necessarily the ones doing it but they ensured it could happen.   This is why I refer to state run brothels.    If sex is allowed simply for pleasure by the Qun, then it would presumably still come under the same remit as arranging sex for procreation.  The Tamassarans are responsible for arranging the conception of children, so it would make sense for them to be in charge of "popping your cork" as well by organising a suitable sex partner to satisfy your needs outside of creating children.    However, that wouldn't mean they actually were the ones personally satisfying that need.    To be honest I think this was one of those areas where something was written down that sounded like something Bull would say, without giving a lot of thought to the actual implications of his words.  



#12613
Xilizhra

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Does anyone else think that, possibly, Iron Bull calls his employers "boss" in part so that he can make a pun on it with "bas" if need be?



#12614
nightscrawl

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To be honest I think this was one of those areas where something was written down that sounded like something Bull would say, without giving a lot of thought to the actual implications of his words.


I agree here, which is another reason I don't like to assume too much. It can lead to further mental disconnect if something is explicitly stated in a future installment, forcing one to think, "Wait, that's not right. I though such-and-such based on this thing."

I don't deny you make good and reasoned points, but we still don't know, they are only assumptions.



#12615
vertigomez

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Does anyone else think that, possibly, Iron Bull calls his employers "boss" in part so that he can make a pun on it with "bas" if need be?


Hard to say if it's Bull that likes the pun, or the writers. I wouldn't doubt it, though.

(Err... I should clarify that's Qun-loyal Hissrad!Bull. Obviously it's genuine otherwise.)
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#12616
Mengor

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I think "popping your cork" was just his way of putting it.   It didn't mean the Tamassrans were necessarily the ones doing it but they ensured it could happen.   

 

Instead of just dialogue, I would have loved some cutscene... showing us how tamassrans popped Bull´s cord...or well... any quinary <3  :bandit: Yeah like some kind of documental about Par Vollen. Even in WOT the amount of info is just ridicoulsy low lol.



#12617
Riot Inducer

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It seemed to me from the way Bull used Tamassran in reference to several wildly different professions that Tamassran is sort of a catch-all term for public service workers of varying description. In the same way the Ben-Hassrath handles everything from domestic police work to international espionage. 


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#12618
CoGDork

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There was some dialogue Bull made about Qamek and what it does to people. It's driving me bonkers trying to remember what exactly he says and when he says it, because for the life of me I can't find it ANYWHERE on the internet.



#12619
EggplantRed

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Hey everyone! Hope everyone is well and having a good start to the new year  :)

 

FYI, Iron Bull's Tarot Card t-shirt (sadly, not the romance one, it's the pre-loyalty mission one) is currently on sale for $9.99USD at the Bioware Store.

 

Tee

Ladies Tee


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#12620
Mengor

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Hey everyone! Hope everyone is well and having a good start to the new year  :)

 

FYI, Iron Bull's Tarot Card t-shirt (sadly, not the romance one, it's the pre-loyalty mission one) is currently on sale for $9.99USD at the Bioware Store.

 

Tee

Ladies Tee

 

In some days... I am expecting to receive something special from the Bioware Store... and it´s not that   :wub:



#12621
Midnight Bliss

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So guys... xD I need advice.

 

I have like 217 dollars and I don´t know if I should: 

 

"Dialog Wheel Flashes"

 

1) Get the Kadan Necklace (If they haven´t run out...)

2) Get better graphic card (Any 760... I´ve been told 750 cards are not that good)

 

I don´t know what to do :I If I get the necklace Iron Bull will approve this and my pc will get angry. And If I get card Iron Bull won´t be happy...  

This is a bit late but my friend got the Kadan necklace for me as a Christmas gift and I highly recommend it if you ever find the money later on (assuming you chose the graphic card), it's really beautiful and goes nicely with just about anything.


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#12622
Mengor

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This is a bit late but my friend got the Kadan necklace for me as a Christmas gift and I highly recommend it if you ever find the money later on (assuming you chose the graphic card), it's really beautiful and goes nicely with just about anything.

 

In fact, ... turns out I couldn´t resist the temptation of having one... so I ordered it lol. It´s not like the advice about the graphic cards was wasted, specially since I discovered that 960 have better prices than 760 for some odd reasons. And I plan to get one at the right moment... (once I had saved enough money again xD) But yeah the decision was to difficult... I can´t wait to have it!!  :wub:.

 

So Skarbrand I appreciate the advice too :lol: . May I ask how long it takes to arrive? In my circunstances I suppose some more since it has to reach Spain :P  


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#12623
Midnight Bliss

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In fact, ... turns out I couldn´t resist the temptation of having one... so I ordered it lol. It´s not like the advice about the graphic cards was wasted, specially since I discovered that 960 have better prices than 760 for some odd reasons. And I plan to get one at the right moment... (once I had saved enough money again xD) But yeah the decision was to difficult... I can´t wait to have it!!  :wub:.

 

So Skarbrand I appreciate the advice too :lol: . May I ask how long it takes to arrive? In my circunstances I suppose some more since it has to reach Spain :P  

Oh, yay! Congrats on getting it.❤

 

 

It took mine about 3 or 4 days to arrive, I think..? It wasn't very long at all. I was really pleasantly surprised since I figured it be a while.


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#12624
Mengor

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Sandalisthemaker, question. Did you romance Iron Bull with that char too? He seems dwarfy, but he still has the gruffy beard C: Man... you really know how to make handsome quzzies  :P



#12625
thats1evildude

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Check out this girl showing off her Iron Bull body pillow:

https://twitter.com/...622535826477057

FPJ liked it. :P
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