58 réponses à ce sujet

[Nyeredzi]

Can gender even apply to the concept of the Maker?

 

Maybe, the forces at work want to restore the black to gold, to reinstate that which is known by some as Maker.

i call it a he because it is known as a he, he even married andraste.

[Grieving Natashina]

i call it a he because it is known as a he, he even married andraste.

Okay, first off, a god can be whatever it wants to be.   Why should it conform to any gender at all?  If it's the Maker, then he's supposed to be the summation of all things, right?  Wouldn't that include the feminine?

 

As far as the topic goes, I've been leaning towards the "Maker is an uncorrupted Old God" theory for about a year now.  I also think that Andraste was an untrained mage.  If you check out the wiki, this is why:

 

From an early age, Andraste suffered troubling dreams of a god known as the Maker. Over time she began to interpret these dreams as the answer to questions that plagued her, and she came to understand that the Maker was the supreme being who had abandoned the world when his people took up the worship of the Old Gods, those beings worshipped in particular by the Tevinter Imperium. According to Chantry canon, after having fled the Imperium and marrying the warlord Maferath, Andraste appealed to the gods but her prayers went unanswered. She would sing, and one day the Maker, enchanted by her voice, invited her to join Him at His side. She instead encouraged Him to return to humanity and forgive them, compelling her fellow Alamarri and others to accept the one true god of Thedas.

 

 

1. It reminds me of descriptions of Dreamers
2. Prior to this point, the Maker is just another god
3. The theme of singing has come back up.  Blue lyrium sings to Justice, Red Lyrium sang to Bartrand, the Darkspawn find the Old Gods' song...

 

As funny as this picture is, this is another of my theories.  

 

[The Elder King]

I support the 'Maker=Fen'harel' theory as well.

[Grieving Natashina]

I support the 'Maker=Fen'harel' theory as well.

It's one of my favorites.  The problem?  It clashes with my "Flemeth is Fen'harel" theory.  It would sound cool, but I wouldn't buy it for a second:

 

"Flemeth is Fen'harel that tricked the world into thinking s/he was the One True God."  That sounds like I need a Tin Foil Hat.  

 

I'm not quite ready to roll the two theories into the giant ball o' crazy.  Not yet.

[CybAnt1]

i call it a he because it is known as a he, he even married andraste.

 

That's a purely symbolic statement. Nuns in Catholicism are called "brides of Christ," but the union there is purely figurative/allegorical. Andraste already had a earthly husband, Maferath (although that did not, of course, work out well.) She also had children, but the Chantry teaches they all died out, so she has no biological heirs. 

 

It does seem that the Maker is viewed as being male, but this does seem paradoxical as does typical ways of depicting the Deity in Western Christianity. 

 

 

After all, Michelangelo and many depict Him as Male, but the official theology of (our-world) Church is that He's actually beyond gender. 

[The Elder King]

It's one of my favorites.  The problem?  It clashes with my "Flemeth is Fen'harel" theory.  It would sound cool, but I wouldn't buy it for a second:
 
"Flemeth is Fen'harel that tricked the world into thinking s/he was the One True God."  That sounds like I need a Tin Foil Hat.  
 
I'm not quite ready to roll the two theories into the giant ball o' crazy.  Not yet.

Yeah, I agree .
I doubt we'll find soon what really is the Maker. It's more likely we might find who Flemeth really is (in the case she's not the Maker/Fen'harel).

[Grieving Natashina]

That's a purely symbolic statement. Nuns in Catholicism are called "brides of Christ," but the union there is purely figurative/allegorical. Andraste already had a earthly husband, Maferath (although that did not, of course, work out well.) She also had children, but the Chantry teaches they all died out, so she has no biological heirs. 

 

It does seem that the Maker is viewed as being male, but this does seem paradoxical as does typical ways of depicting the Deity in Western Christianity. 

 

 

After all, Michelangelo and many depict Him as Male, but the official theology of (our-world) Church is that He's actually beyond gender. 

That was beautiful.  Thank you!!

 

[Nyeredzi]

ok i'm sorry he is beyond gender, he is neither male nor female

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No I get the sense that Chantry theology assigns a male gender to the Maker considering that he was said to fall in love with Andraste.

 

I also think the Maker being Fen'Harel doesn't make any sense. Why would he want to help overthrow the Imperium? The world is better for it. Why would he encourage a religion to do all the things that he supposedly hates?

[Calendril]

I submit to you all that the Maker is in actuality the biggest, baddest Pride demon in existence. Why?

 

"From an early age, Andraste suffered troubling dreams of a then obscure god known as the Maker. Slowly, she began to make sense of these dreams, and came to interpret them as answers to the questions that plagued her."

 

Dreams.  From the Fade.  Where the spirits live.

 

"The spirits shape their world to cater to the unconscious thoughts of the living, creating what the living call dreams."

 

Another quote  says a very similar thing: "When spirits encounter a visitor, most can't help but mine the visitor's mind for their thoughts and memories, and may use these to shape the visitor's perceptions and trick them into thinking their dreams are reality."

 

I am reminded of a quote, "When someone asks you if you're a god.. you say 'Yes'!!"  What if that's what a spirit in the Fade did? I'm just going with Pride, because, well... it seems an obvious fit.

 

 

 

Side note: I'm interested in what stories were told of the Maker while he was an "obscure god." Was he just a craftsman like Hephaestus? Was it through Andraste that he bacame the Maker of all things.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think David Gaider said the Tevinters ascribed the existence of the Golden City to some absent creator deity. But it wasn't until later he was referred to as "The Maker."

[TheKomandorShepard]

I think David Gaider said the Tevinters ascribed the existence of the Golden City to some absent creator deity. But it wasn't until later he was referred to as "The Maker."

 

Well i don't think that tevinter knew what rly black/golden city was considering what corry and other magisters expected something different than they found.

 

For everyone devs said they will left maker part ambiguous of course that was years ago and they changed a lot in series so who knows but i doubt that.

[Grieving Natashina]

I think David Gaider said the Tevinters ascribed the existence of the Golden City to some absent creator deity. But it wasn't until later he was referred to as "The Maker."

Curious.  Do you have a source handy?  

 

If not, no worries.   It's a fun theory regardless.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Curious.  Do you have a source handy?  

 

If not, no worries.   It's a fun theory regardless.

 

He said it back on the old forum several years ago.

 

There are one or two ideas he mentioned that don't seem to come up in the games but I think most or all of that lore still applies unless we're told otherwise.

[Grieving Natashina]

Ah, danke danke!  I'm out of likes, so here's this for you:

 

[goat_fab]

I'm sorry, I was unaware that the Fade and the real world were once completely connected and that the Veil didn't always exist. Where's the source on this?

Also, no. Let me pick at a few things. The dwarves and the Tevinters have been working together a long time, as stated in the World of Thedas, Vol. 1. The dwarves supply the ridiculous amounts of lyrium that the Tevinters require. They get along so well, in fact, that the dwarves have a permanent embassy in Tevinter and some minor political power there.

 

How did the dragons come from beyond the Fade? Where is your source?

Lyrium being present in the material world and in the Fade doesn't have anything to do with the entrance to the Golden City being in the Deep Roads. For starters, the Deep Roads were built by the dwarves, who aren't connected to the Fade. Second, the presence of lyrium in both realms can probably be tacked up with the connection between magic and the two worlds. Where there's lyrium, there's magic. The Fade itself is the realm of the immaterial, the realm of magic. That's why dreamers and mages can manipulate it so, whereas others are condemned to just wander.

[Mistic]

He said it back on the old forum several years ago.

 

There are one or two ideas he mentioned that don't seem to come up in the games but I think most or all of that lore still applies unless we're told otherwise.

 

Oh, yes, that was a very instructive post. It gives the idea that the different religions in Thedas don't contradict each other as much as their adherents (and the fans) think they do.

 

[Vulpe]

Well, here are my two cents.

 

I don't think that The Chatry is right when it comes to the Golden/Black City. When it comes to the actual creator of the world,of The Fade, the material world and all the more or less demigod entities, to whom I will refer as The Great Anonym, I don't think that his existance will ever be proven or disproven. He'll remain just that, a anonym whos role will never be discovered. The Great Anonym will always remain a mystery. We might get hints regarding his existance, but we'll never be given a straight answer. 

 

When it comes to The Golden/Black City, I don't think that is was the actual home of The Maker and that it was ever golden. I actually think it was always black and it's actually a prison for the dark entity/entities that are the source of The Taint.

 

When it comes to The Veil, I think that it is mentained by the Old Gods. The Seven Old Gods are something like the Seven Seals Of The Apocalypse and they keep The Veil to up and going to protect the physical world from the dark force that lies in The Black Prison / City and to also mentain it locked in there.

 

As for Fen'Harel, I don't think that he's a bad guy or a trickster. I think that he's a force of balance and did what he had to do to protect the world and the lesser beings from the conflict of the other god-like entities that fought for power and, in their war, threatened to destroy everything.

 

Of course he got a bad reputation because he imprisoned and or/banished the deities to whom the elves prayed, but I actually think that he's the sole reason why the world is still intact and that he's the closest thing Thedas has to a Maker, but he's more of a Savior than a Maker...oh, and he's a friend of the dragons    

[Master Warder Z]

DO NOT QUESTION GOD'S WILL!

 

I AM ABOVE JUDGEMENT FOR MY ACTIONS!

 

...Even the actions I wish I could take back...like flinging the black mold I was hiding behind the drapes at those Home invaders twelve hundred or so years ago.

[shonawarrior]

The Maker sighs.... 

[Deebo305]

Sandel has no time to worry about the affairs of unenchanted beings

[Daerog]

Here's a wild theory.

 

Maybe the Chantry, the Orlesian Chantry, is right. In their world at least.

 

Perhaps the Chant of Light is the truth of Thedas, even though those who use it may twist it to extreme ends, but the general understanding is true.

 

Just a crazy thought, but maybe there is no real big twist when it comes to the Maker.

 

Not that it matters, as it has been said before, the devs like to leave that stuff vague or whatever.

[Kimarous]

I don't believe in the Maker as the Chantry does. How Leliana described it, maybe, but as per the official Chantry stance? No. Not sure about the "Maker is Fen'harel" theory, but not ruling it out. I do know that I believed that the Golden City never actually was Golden and had always been Black - at least, prior to Corypheous confirming things - but I'm still not ruling out the idea that the location isn't necessarily tied to the Maker and the City itself could have been the corrupting force, rather than the magisters who went there.

[AkiKishi]

The maker is a guy called Dave and his associates.