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[Laughing_Man]

"They're just radically different beasts. JRPG fans expect their protagonists to be completely pre-established and their stories to thrill them with entirely pre-determined twists and turns. "

"There is something to be said -- or perhaps, was -- for worlds painted lovingly by the hard-working brushstrokes of artists, writers not limited by the myriad potential divergences players desire, but instead freed to tell one linear tale, start to definitive finish."

 

Just throwing my two cents here.

 

For me, a linear story in something that calls itself an RPG, is not only bad because of obvious reasons like the lack of player agency, but also because I am less likely to replay it after I finish with it the first time, and in any case it certainly has less replayability value than a non-linear story.

 

And well, the bit about the hardworking artist is rather irrelevant.

There are hard working artists behind every game, and a *really* good artist, is one that is able to tell a facsinating story even when he or she are limited by the need to connect it to a non-linear game.

 

And lastly, I strongly dislike the use of artistic excuses for taking "the easy way out" by limiting player agency and making games more linear.

I don't have a particular interest in art, and the fact that the word "art" is commonly used as a shield to hide a game's shortcomings,

makes the entire thing all the more ironic and laughable.

[JeffZero]

Thanks for chiming in, I always value a second opinion. But I definitely feel as though you're misconstruing what I've said. Perhaps it would help if I pointed out that I would concur classifying Japanese RPGs as "roleplaying games" is something of a misnomer?

It sounds to me as though you're taking issue with that element especially, which is not a remark I'm a stranger to on BSN. Over the years I've witnessed a lion's share of JRPG negativity because folks who come here primarily fancy themselves WRPG fans and channel their (reasonable, IMO) issues with the name of the genre against the JRPG in general.

As for my statement on artistic value, all I can really do is to shrug. Let me ask you, do you enjoy stories in other genres of games altogether? Have you ever felt a positive emotion toward a character in, say, a Naughty Dog title such as Uncharted 2 or The Last of Us? These are prime examples of what I'm getting at; JRPGs at least used to follow the static and linear storytelling route, like a book or movie with a beginning and end the writer wanted to focus one beam of thought into, and if you've played and enjoyed either of those games for their rich-though-constant casts and settings, then you're not so against my thoughts as you may suspect. If you've played them or anything like them and thought the writers were being lazy by not allowing you to control Nate's or Joel's or whoever-else's decision-making then I'm just going to have t respectfully, but very strongly, disagree with you on what I perceive as your ironically-linear perspective on the video game industry's goals.

Perhaps evoking the image of the painter was my failing. Perhaps you were around for BioWare's "artistic integrity" stance on ME3's original endings and the word association has forever befouled itself in your mind. But I don't know, because I'm not you, heh. All I do know are my own likes and dislikes, and I am happy to like both sides of the narrative perspective in gaming.

EDIT: Immediately after texting this response I reread what you said (I'm on a hike at the moment so certain details in my reading are a bit simple to miss) and yeah, it's obvious in what you said that your major issue is the classification of the term "RPG." Still, frankly I like what I posted, so I'll keep it, but yeah. Gotcha.)

[shonawarrior]

i ask that those with a ps2 play an rpg called Rogue Galaxy

[JeffZero]

I have.

'Saight.

[Laughing_Man]

Thanks for chiming in, I always value a second opinion.

*Snip*

 

Don't worry, I'm not going to declare an exalted march on you just because we think differently...

 

Admittedly, I dislike the style of JRPG's in general for many reasons.

The fact that they usually contain many annoying tropes from anime (and manga? I can't tell the difference...), dosen't help at all...

So it's not linearity and lack of player agency that caused my dislike for JRPG's.

 

I didn't play "Uncharted" or "The Last of Us", so I can't comment directly.

I will say however, that even when I played games of this type in the past,

I wished many times for more control and was occasionaly frustrated because my PC was handed an "Idiot Ball" by the writers, etc.

 

Yes, it's hard for me to forget ME3 "Artistic Integrity"...

[shonawarrior]

I have.

'Saight.

best rpg i have everplayed, underrated, but enjoyable for a game from its time

[Hanako Ikezawa]

WRPGs and JRPGs are just two subgenres of the RPG genre, just like how TBS and RTS are both part of the Strategy genre.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Don't worry, I'm not going to declare an exalted march on you just because we think differently...

 

Admittedly, I dislike the style of JRPG's in general for many reasons.

The fact that they usually contain many annoying tropes from anime (and manga? I can't tell the difference...), dosen't help at all...

So it's not linearity and lack of player agency that caused my dislike for JRPG's.

Manga is the book version while anime is manga that is now animated for television.

[JeffZero]

WRPGs and JRPGs are just two subgenres of the RPG genre, just like how TBS and RTS are both part of the Strategy genre.

Dangerous territory here, this. Hence my monologue on how irked people oft get in these parts.

An important thing to consider which many people are aware of but others still vehemently disagree is possible is that the term "RPG" has multiple meanings and means different things to different people. In its most literal and etymological it means precisely as it states: to roleplay. But are we not roleplayers when we step into the shoes of a pre-defined character, guiding them across a pre-defined plot, if only in the sense that without our controller-spawned exploratory guidance and battle input they would never reach Point B? Is it not *at all* roleplaying to pretend, just for a little while, we're ______ in the land of ______?

Indeed, it's a wholly separate idea, and certainly the Western definition, holding to the origin of the term, makes more sense. Ideally JRPGs would never have become known as such and some other similar term were crafted for them, like "RPG-esque combat/world linear adventure game", but then, RPGECWLA just sounds like some weird-ass Final Fantasy X solo challenge.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, considering JRPGs came first, aren't WRPGs the ones going against the RPG grain. 

[JeffZero]

Don't worry, I'm not going to declare an exalted march on you just because we think differently...

Admittedly, I dislike the style of JRPG's in general for many reasons.
The fact that they usually contain many annoying tropes from anime (and manga? I can't tell the difference...), dosen't help at all...
So it's not linearity and lack of player agency that caused my dislike for JRPG's.

I didn't play "Uncharted" or "The Last of Us", so I can't comment directly.
I will say however, that even when I played games of this type in the past,
I wished many times for more control and was occasionaly frustrated because my PC was handed an "Idiot Ball" by the writers, etc.

Yes, it's hard for me to forget ME3 "Artistic Integrity"...

Whoa, I'm glad someone quoted this because I completely missed it when the new page popped up.

Anyway, humorously enough there's precious few anime I enjoy. I feel confident in my opinion that JRPGs hit a kind of Golden Age for a while and when it was in effect those nagging tropes were either relatively lacking or utilized to surprisingly sharp results. I do know what you mean though.

[Laughing_Man]

...but then, RPGECWLA just sounds like some weird-ass Final Fantasy X solo challenge.

 

...

 

Can I do "Like" on a particular line?...

[ElitePinecone]

OP, your threads make me think you must be such a cheerful person.

[JeffZero]

Well, considering JRPGs came first, aren't WRPGs the ones going against the RPG grain.

Erm, they certainly didn't though. Dragon Quest (1986) and Final Fantasy (1987) borrowed elements extensively from Western games such as Ultima and King's Quest (early 1980s) while borrowing liberally in turn from the original versions of Dungeons & Dragons in the 1970s.

It's a somewhat common misconception insofar as once gaming became really mainstream JRPGs took the popular lead for a long time, but it's actually not true at all.

[JeffZero]

...

Can I do "Like" on a particular line?...

I wish.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Erm, they certainly didn't though. Dragon Quest (1986) and Final Fantasy (1987) borrowed elements extensively from Western games such as Ultima and King's Quest (early 1980s) while borrowing liberally from the original versios of Dungeons & Dragons in the 1970s.

It's a somewhat common misconception insofar as once gaming became really mainstream JRPGs took the popular lead for a long time, but it's actually not true at all.

Forgot about the ancient D&D games. Whenever I think D&D, I think the Pen and Paper versions. 

[JeffZero]

Ultima, King's Quest, et al were well before my time and I suspect probably Natashina's as well, so I can't say much about them firsthand, but from what I've seen they essentially crafted their own original worlds while adhering strongly (and pioneering the notion of utilizing) early D&D crunchy number stuff and whatnot. Their heroes were undefined but in the strictest sense: they didn't speak at all, allowing players to roleplay as them in simple fashion as they decided how to customize them gameplay-wise without having then-unthinkable things like characterization in a video game get in the way.

The first Japanese RPGs came along in an era when gaming was still very niche and Western RPGs ruled the world's relatively few gamers, so they did what the Japanese post-WWII culture (and in many ways their culture for over a thousand years) has done best: they emulated. Final Fantasy I and the first several Dragon Quest games featured the same approach to characterization that their Western, popular peers believed in: none. It was all gameplay, all the time, really.

After all, Hironobu Sakaguchi then posited, even if dialogue were attributed to the Warriors of Light, wouldn't that take them away from the player?

How times soon changed for that company. Several years later and JRPGs began containing voluminous books worth of script.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Ultima, King's Quest, et al were well before my time and I suspect probably Natashina's as well, so I can't say much about them firsthand, but from what I've seen they essentially crafted their own original worlds while adhering strongly (and pioneering the notion of utilizing) early D&D crunchy number stuff and whatnot. Their heroes were undefined but in the strictest sense: they didn't speak at all, allowing players to roleplay as them in simple fashion as they decided how to customize them gameplay-wise without having then-unthinkable things like characterization in a video game get in the way.

The first Japanese RPGs came along in an era when gaming was still very niche and Western RPGs ruled the world's relatively few gamers, so they did what the Japanese post-WWII culture (and in many ways their culture for over a thousand years) has done best: they emulated. Final Fantasy I and the first several Dragon Quest games featured the same approach to characterization that their Western, popular peers believed in: none. It was all gameplay, all the time, really.

After all, Hironobu Sakaguchi then posited, even if dialogue were attributed to the Warriors of Light, wouldn't that take them away from the player?

How times soon changed for that company. Several years later and JRPGs began containing voluminous books worth of script.

As someone who did a research paper on Japan, I should say this is inaccurate. 

[JeffZero]

I've done so as well. Three, in fact. I'm talking about their quick adaptation of American introductions during the occupation and before that things like their unique spins on lacquerware for example.

But I do wanna hear why you say that.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I've done so as well. Three, in fact. I'm talking about their quick adaptation of American introductions during the occupation and before that things like their unique spins on lacquerware for example.

But I do wanna hear why you say that.

As much as I'd like to, we probably shouldn't, though. At least not in here. We were already going offtopic with the "WRPGs are better than JRPGs" discussion, and this would be much more so than that. 

[JeffZero]

You might be right. Feel free to PM if you want. I'll try to get back to you on it when I can.

[Abraham_uk]

Nothing wrong with Western RPG's and Japanese RPG's.

 

 

Actually Japanese RPG's is a misleading term, since it encompasses the following:

 

Japanese style RPG's made by Western developers

Korean and Chinese RPG's

 

 

 

 

Does South Park The Stick of Truth count as a JRPG?

It is similar to Paper Mario (which is a JRPG)

 

 

 

 

Also being compared to Final Fantasy series (a long running highly praised series of quality video games with the possible exception of XIII trilogy and XIV) is a complement, not an insult.

 

 

 

Finally. It's a bit early to review Dragon Age Inquisition. The game hasn't even come out yet.

[CybAnt1]

Erm, they certainly didn't though. Dragon Quest (1986) and Final Fantasy (1987) borrowed elements extensively from Western games such as Ultima and King's Quest (early 1980s) while borrowing liberally in turn from the original versions of Dungeons & Dragons in the 1970s.

It's a somewhat common misconception insofar as once gaming became really mainstream JRPGs took the popular lead for a long time, but it's actually not true at all.

 

You took me far more seriously than I figured anybody would, Jeff. But I don't mind, I like learning about the history of JRPGs, and I thought your survey was interesting. I don't "hate" them; I would say it was more an issue of they were coming to (U.S.) gaming consoles when I was mostly giving up gaming consoles. I really can't compare them the way most do - since I've never played any. So it's a debate I never raise myself. 

 

Well, way back when, even running on mainframes, were games like Dungeon (1975), and Rogue (1980), which used ASCII graphics (the latter has spawned a whole legion of "roguelike" clones, even up to the present (Angband, Nethack, etc.). That's if we skip the text adventure games like Adventure/Colossal Cave (1975), and Zork I (1980).

 

Were those really CRPGs? Yes and no. Some would say the WRPGs - but bear in mind they were just dungeon crawlers back then - really started with the ones that specifically were written for personal computers (like the Apple II, or Commodore 64, or Atari 800), and had some (if primitive) color graphics, in the early 1980s - Ultima, Wizardry, and Temple of Apshai. Following soon on their heels would be Bard's Tale (1985) and Might & Magic I (1986). 

 

Thing is, in the so-called WRPG vs. JRPG debate, it usually involves the definition of WRPGs as games with branching narrative & player agency. Well, as I do keep acknowledging, that was only true once Wasteland (1988), and then Fallout (in a much more extensive way) began to evolve the genre out of dungeon crawling, giving us the stuff we (well, esp.  here) tend to take for granted as genre-defining: dialogue, "actual" RPing (beyond combat), "choices & consequences," NPCs with identities and interactions, branching possible endings to the story, etc. And that would be in 1997.