24 réponses à ce sujet

[Ophir147]

While the Warden was arguably a walking machine of death and destruction, a large percentage of the death dealt by Warden and co. was to acceptable, chaotic evil targets (Abominations in the Circle of Magi, Undead and Demons in Redcliffe, Wolves, werewolves and undead in Nature of the Beast, and Darkspawn/Spiders(*shiver*) in Paragon of her Kind/Ostagar/Denerim. The amount of Cultists murdered in Haven and butchery of political rivals/gang members in Denerim is considerable, but necessary.

 

DA2 went balls to the walls with human carnage, with hundred of gang members, templars, qunari and mages dying at the hands of Hawke and co.. However, Dragon Age 2 had an obviously unreliable narrator, so it wouldn't surprise me if all of this was a   ) embellishment on the part of Varric and b  ) an attempt to use as many of the new and interesting human enemy types (the giant spider fights really do seem dull by comparison).

 

So how will DA:I fall on this sliding scale? They've said that they will be slowing down the game to a middle ground between the "tactical" and the exciting. Does this mean that we won't be murdering quite so many people with hopes/dreams/families/etc.?

 

It's been shown that we are going to be fighting a lot of demons due to the veil tear. My suggestion is this; use demons more often, and make them more fun to fight. Integrate cannon fodder (corpses, shades, spooky Nevarran mummies or whatever) with interesting demon types (arcane horrors and desire demons throwing out devastating aoes to discourage the group staying close together, more powerful shades/lesser pride demons requiring a concerted effort from your team to take down, abominations that explode a few seconds after they die to discourage fighting in the same place for the whole fight, etc) to make these fights interesting enough to allow us to enjoy the combat without turning our Inquisitor into a walking holocaust. Make every human, elven or dwarven life that we take mean as much as possible by not cheapening life to a degree that they just become something else to gib on the way to the end of the quest.

[Eveangaline]

Well you are leading a war. You'll probably throw troops of people at other troops of people and cause lots of human death in the process.

 

Also you're forgetting a lot of death in Origins. You could wipe out an entire dalish tripe, you killed mountains of dwarves in Orzimar, killed plenty of human thieves and bandits and people involved in the civil war. And so many mages..just, so many not even abomination mages.

[rocsage]

considering the game mechanic shift (fewer sky troopers), yes, you are likely to murder fewer people, but each opponent will be more capable.

Did anyone notice how in Mark of Assassins, Baron Arlange's hammer wielding footmen can use mighty strike?  Caused a wipe on my first attempt there.

[Nyeredzi]

lol kirkwall bandits were like armies, ninja armies

[TheLastArchivist]

 They've said that they will be slowing down the game to a middle ground between the "tactical" and the exciting. Does this mean that we won't be murdering quite so many people with hopes/dreams/families/etc.?

 

Make every human, elven or dwarven life that we take mean as much as possible by not cheapening life to a degree that they just become something else to gib on the way to the end of the quest.

Good question. DA2 did sometimes feel a bit like a massive slaughter. Origins also had lots of fighting and gore, but the characters showed a lot more disgust towards senseless killing. There are numerous examples of this.

Greagoir could've killed every mage in the Circle, but he chooses to spare Irving, Wynne and many others.

Alistair considers it unnaceptable if you kill Connor to eliminate the demon or his mother in order to save the boy.

Rendon Howe's crimes, like torture, are considered heinous by the banns.

The death of King Cailan, Duncan and the wardens and soldiers in Ostagar is repeatedly mentioned as a tragedy, even by Sten, who is a tough character.

 

DAO had balanced and mature characters, with down-to-earth philosophies and real problems, while DA2 was an odd blend of lighthearted characters and slaughter.

 

Regarding DA: Inquisition, I hope being the Inquisitor means plotting strategies to AVOID unnecessary deaths. Remember when Varric showed sadness for all the victims of a recent battle in the trailer? That's the sort of attitude which reminded me of Origins.

 

War is about loss and waste of lives. And whenever the Inquisitor has to make a decision, it would be nice if the implications of his choice would provoke such human response from his companions. It would add realism to the game, just as it happened in Origins. I've never forgotten how Sten reprimanded me for making a promise to the smith of Recliffe "that I wouldn't keep" or when Zevran did the same before I had to decide whether to let the Tevinter slaver take the elves away.

And how can you forget the heartfelt speeches of your companions before the final battle in Denerim?

 

Those moments SHOULD RETURN, because they made the game what it is. Moral chices having a realistic weight on everything you do. Not just superficial dialog and approval or rivalry points because "I don't approve of blood mages" or because "I think templars suck".

 

The general lightheartedness of DA2 is welcome, but it shouldn't become the central point of the upcoming game. May it serve as a comic relief in appropriate moments and within the right context, in order to avoid the game being too serious.

[Rainbow Wyvern]

Characters not being murderous lunatics doesn't mean the game is more 'human'. There didn't seem to be any actual consequences in Origins, either. Click a shiny button labeled [Persuade] and everyone is A-OK with that kid you just killed, or the fact that you just made a deal with a demon!*

DA:O did not feel more 'mature'** IMO. I do admit that DA2 wasn't all that 'mature' either, especially when all your enemies start blowing up when you poke them with a metal stick and your mumsy turns into Frankenstein, all while demons start crawling out of the ground like malevolent worms. 

And in regards to your companions and random NPCs talking about Duncan and Cailan after they died, characters in DA2 mentioned the death of Leandra and whatever sibling died in the Deep Roads (if one did) many times. Your LI, or Aveline if you have no LI (I think, never not romanced anyone in DA2), even comes to comfort you about Leandra's death. 

 

I guess I'm just tired of people saying "DA:O did this and DA2 didn't DA:O is so awesome!!" even when, y'know... DA2 did that cool thing, too! 

Both games had their flaws. Inquisition will, too. Hopefully not many. 

 

 

Anyway, more on-topic. I do hope DA:I doesn't go all out on the lolkilling, because both games did have an unnecessary amount of murder in some cases, and it got old. Like in that one quest in DA2 where the psycho-anti-Qunari-cultist-dude-ladies kept pouring out of Maker-knows-where. Or Origins, where I those endless waves of freaking baby dragons and loony cultists got OLD. Fast. 

 

 

 

 

 

* DA2 suffered from this, too. On many an occasion... I hope DA:I has unavoidable consequences, instead of companions not caring after 3 seconds (DA2), or you click a button and everyone's happy (DA:O).

 

** 'Mature' is subjective. From a certain point of view you can argue either game was 'mature'.

[KaiserShep]

In Origins, don't forget that if you're a rogue or use a rogue to steal from anyone and everyone you can in Denerim, you may come across a mark that beats your stealing score, or is simply impossible to steal from (like Master Wade or Ignacio), you will encounter guards if you travel through the city and have to kill them too.

[Mockingword]

It's a video game, so probably more than the population of some countries.

[Eveangaline]

In Origins, don't forget that if you're a rogue or use a rogue to steal from anyone and everyone you can in Denerim, you may come across a mark that beats your stealing score, or is simply impossible to steal from (like Master Wade or Ignacio), you will encounter guards if you travel through the city and have to kill them too.

Not to mention just the tons of thieves and crows you run into in the city anyway.

 

Or the entire dwarven Carta or the many soldiers from the opposite side of whoever you pick for king.

[CybAnt1]

It's a weird world. Clearly, there are what are functionally the equivalent of police in Kirkwall, the Guardsmen. Of course, it helps that you know the Chief of Police/Captain of the Guards, Aveline. I guess that is why the Guards pretty much overlook the fact that you're not only slaughtering bandits left and right but even occasionally people that are a bit more ... 'innocent'. 

 

On the other hand, in Origins, when three rogues kill some people, apparently you need to dispose of the bodies for them, dumping them down the well when no one's looking.

http://dragonage.wik...olving_Problems

 

I notice you never have to worry about disposing of bodies.  You just leave them lying in the streets. BTW, at night, fine, no one reacts. But even when you do this during the day and lots of people are watching, not even a gasp or a cry from nearby people. 

 

Basically, Kirkwall (and most of Thedas) seems to follow what Anatole France frequently said about the law; murder is only a criminal act depending on who you are and when it happened (and maybe the importance of the victim), but otherwise it appears not to be a problem that the Guards are interested in.

[Eveangaline]

It's a weird world. Clearly, there are what are functionally the equivalent of police in Kirkwall, the Guardsmen. Of course, it helps that you know the Chief of Police/Captain of the Guards, Aveline. I guess that is why the Guards pretty much overlook the fact that you're not only slaughtering bandits left and right but even occasionally people that are a bit more ... 'innocent'. 

 

On the other hand, in Origins, when three rogues kill some people, apparently you need to dispose of the bodies for them, dumping them down the well when no one's looking.

http://dragonage.wik...olving_Problems

 

I notice you never have to worry about disposing of bodies.  You just leave them lying in the streets. BTW, at night, fine, no one reacts. But even when you do this during the day and lots of people are watching, not even a gasp or a cry from nearby people. 

 

Basically, Kirkwall (and most of Thedas) seems to follow what Anatole France frequently said about the law; murder is only a criminal act depending on who you are and when it happened (and maybe the importance of the victim), but otherwise it appears not to be a problem that the Guards are interested in.

To be fair, in that quest, you don't really dispose of the bodies very well. You just drop them in a well right next to the church in the middle of the city. Clearly the other people don't need them disposed of that much.

[Steelcan]

Odd thing about fantasy stories set in the middle of wars, they tend to rack up a body count...

[Creator Limbs]

If there is not a massive amount of homicide, I will enjoy the game a lot less.

[In Exile]

The Warden kills over 500+ people over the course of DA:O. Close to about 50% of your kills. Hawke ends up killing more humans because there are less darkspawn to kill ... maybe, because we don't have the same kill counter to keep track. 

 

So to answer your question - a lot. RPGS are all about murder on an absurd scale. 

[Jorji Costava]

I've probably said this before, but I'm actually hoping that there's significantly less combat in DAI than in previous iterations (or at least, the option to resolve a substantial number of encounters through non-violent means, whether that's stealth, persuasion or something else altogether). Part of the reason for this is that I have some sympathy with the arguments of Film Crit Hulk and others to the effect that games struggle to achieve thematic unity precisely because of their more "gamey" elements (especially combat). What exactly does killing Giant Spider #3,878 or Faceless Darkspawn #293 suggest to us about social inequality, self-determination, freedom vs. security or any of the other ostensible big ideas of the Dragon Age series? Not much as far as I can see. Thus, a game consisting 75% of this stuff isn't going to achieve unity of theme or purpose, and that's too bad.

 

The other part is that I just find combat (especially combat without any underlying emotional texture, as most random encounters with faceless mooks are) to just be boring. Couldn't stand the Deep Roads in DA:O. It just seemed like the story came to a complete stop for a very long stretch.

 

As far as killing demons, abominations, etc. rather than human beings, I really don't mind fighting the latter if the game is prepared to take this kind of violence a bit more seriously. Having to fight beings with interests, goals, etc. isn't the problem; the problem arises when such fights are always treated as though they are as consequence-free as fights with gigantic spiders. For instance, a lot of people complained about the wanton destruction at the end of Man of Steel, but perhaps the problem was not the implied deaths of hundred of thousands of people, but the fact that such events are treated so lightly. Thousands, died, but hey, the good guy won the really cool fight at the end, so who cares?

 

EDIT: Added a link

[Eveangaline]

There might be less combat per quest but considering it seems to be a much much bigger game, I think we can expect more combat overall than the last two.

[CybAnt1]

It is possible though that this may be the first Dragon Age game where you can run from combat, on your mount. Maybe not after it starts. 

 

We don't know yet (my guess is there may be a limited chase distance, and then they stop pursuit.) 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

It's a weird world. Clearly, there are what are functionally the equivalent of police in Kirkwall, the Guardsmen. Of course, it helps that you know the Chief of Police/Captain of the Guards, Aveline. I guess that is why the Guards pretty much overlook the fact that you're not only slaughtering bandits left and right but even occasionally people that are a bit more ... 'innocent'.

 

Aveline was funny, she kept complaining about corruption even though she's extremely corrupt herself.

[Ophir147]

 

Aveline was funny, she kept complaining about corruption even though she's extremely corrupt herself.

 

IIRC, Aveline made it a point to tell Hawke that the only reason that she helps her (even if Hawke is a murderous bastard) is that she ultimately does more good than bad. I do agree that it's a little strange to have the Captain of the Guard not bring you to the dungeons for some of the heinous **** that Hawke tries to pull off, but it kind of makes sense considering how little power the Viscount, and by extension the City Guard has in comparison to the Templars.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Hundreds, possibly thousands of unavoidable murders. More or less the same as any BioWare game (and most RPGs).

[CybAnt1]

Well, as Will Smith pointed out at the end of I Robot, murder is technically defined as a human being killing another human being (intentionally, and not in self-defense). 

 

We have the self-defense argument against every "red circle"/KoS being -- they always attack first. 

 

As for nonhumans, well, law in medieval times was even more hazy than today, but, technically, that's not murder. 

 

BTW, you could get in trouble for poaching and killing wildlife on the lands of the king, but otherwise nobody gave a crap. 

[The Hierophant]

Probably enough to make Detroit at it's worst look like Iceland by comparison.

[Creator Limbs]

Hundreds, possibly thousands of unavoidable murders. More or less the same as any BioWare game (and most RPGs).

No! Murder? In my RPGs?

[esper]

IIRC, Aveline made it a point to tell Hawke that the only reason that she helps her (even if Hawke is a murderous bastard) is that she ultimately does more good than bad. I do agree that it's a little strange to have the Captain of the Guard not bring you to the dungeons for some of the heinous **** that Hawke tries to pull off, but it kind of makes sense considering how little power the Viscount, and by extension the City Guard has in comparison to the Templars.

 

It is my opinion that Aveline was much worse than the former captain of the guards. She flat out says that 'she guard the guardsmen' and that she 'doesn't let her men fight in dark corners' which all in all implicates what she priotezed the guardsmen safety above the average citizien (and let Hawke deal with the civillians as Hawke saw fit).

 

All in all though both da:o and da2 has us being mass murderers. It doesn't really matter that it is mostly self defense, if the your self defense kills gets to the 100th person the whole self defense things begins to sound hollow in my ears... Which is why none of my protagonist is against murder, after all the nature of a crpg mostly have them being mass murderers no matter what at the end.

[rocsage]

It's a weird world. Clearly, there are what are functionally the equivalent of police in Kirkwall, the Guardsmen. Of course, it helps that you know the Chief of Police/Captain of the Guards, Aveline. I guess that is why the Guards pretty much overlook the fact that you're not only slaughtering bandits left and right but even occasionally people that are a bit more ... 'innocent'. 

 

On the other hand, in Origins, when three rogues kill some people, apparently you need to dispose of the bodies for them, dumping them down the well when no one's looking.

http://dragonage.wik...olving_Problems

 

I notice you never have to worry about disposing of bodies.  You just leave them lying in the streets. BTW, at night, fine, no one reacts. But even when you do this during the day and lots of people are watching, not even a gasp or a cry from nearby people. 

 

Basically, Kirkwall (and most of Thedas) seems to follow what Anatole France frequently said about the law; murder is only a criminal act depending on who you are and when it happened (and maybe the importance of the victim), but otherwise it appears not to be a problem that the Guards are interested in.

the reason why guards aren't doing anything: they can't, just like their shirt twins, the empire shock troopers.