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XO in ME3


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#251
FlyingSquirrel

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I think this is just baseless irritation at my opinion for the top. 

 

And yes, I will fully criticize Ashley. See, all the things that the squadmates say about Miranda is mostly residual mistrust of her being affiliated with Cerberus. I never once see anything criticizing her about her actual performance. Can you show me or tell me where you saw anything that did from the squadmates?

 

No, though to be fair, the ME2 squadmates barely acknowledge each other's presence most of the time. I just did Tali's loyalty mission on my latest run a few days ago, and even *Mordin*, who does not exactly seem to be the quiet type, did not speak a single word the entire time. No opinion on the quarian trial, no comment on quarian biology and quarantine procedures, no reaction to the scientific ethics of Rael and Xen, no response to Tali's emotional state, not even a "problematic" at the appearance of the Geth Prime.

 

I would say that Miranda displays a lack of tact at times that isn't helpful for a mission that involves getting a diverse crew with checkered backgrounds to work together. Whatever you think of Okeer and Jack, saying things to their faces like "we couldn't care less about your problems" or "clearly you were a mistake" is dumb and counterproductive. If Shepard had been killed part of the way through ME2 and Miranda had taken over, she might well have faced some desertions. Jack would almost certainly be straight out the door, and Tali would need some iron-clad guarantees about not being used for Cerberus's agenda. Garrus might stay due to how serious the Collector threat is, but he might also quietly prepare himself to disobey her if push came to shove. Grunt would have to decide if she's worthy to be his new battlemaster.



#252
MassivelyEffective0730

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And as has been pointed out before, it did activate on its own.  There was no reason to believe that simply looking at it from well out of arm's reach would cause anything further to happen.

 

If Nihlus briefed them by saying "Now if the beacon lights up, stand at least twenty five feet back, bad stuff has been known to happen around them" you might have a point.  

 

It looked to me like Ashley/Kaidan activated it as they walked closer to the object.

 

And it doesn't matter what you believe here; it's rather irrelevant to the argument at hand. The argument is that the person who activated it (or not) was being reckless. They weren't displaying caution. They were being stupid.



#253
eyezonlyii

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When Shepard was making a call to the Normandy about securing the beacon and making his report on the situation, Ashley is commenting on the Beacon not behaving or acting the way it was when it was initially recovered. Shepard was occupied with his report here. Granted, he could have issued a stay/hold order, but it also should have been to the knowledge of both that they don't approach important mission objective point items without authorization: for example, you shouldn't have to give an order for Soldiers not to approach a suspected IED emplacement, or a possible Signal asset captured from enemy forces (a Radio, a Walky-Talky, an encryption device, etc.) You secure their positions and hold security while the experts arrive. Those are standard operations procedures of modern militaries for a reason, and if they don't apply in the ME-universe, it speaks about their incompetence and disconnection from actual, logical military procedure.

 

I'm not saying I exactly agree with all those examples: Shepard certainly was being reckless with those. That said, it's also a separate thread for the argument. I don't agree with it any more than I agree with how Kaidan/Ashley acted.

You mention experts and orders to wait for them to arrive and such to investigate/transport the beacon, but remember: the Normandy *is* the transport. There are no "experts" there to speak of, so as many have said earlier, the very next person to step forward would have activated the beacon and instead of arguing whether or not one of the two VS's was incompetent, it would be whether or not Corporal Thompson's reckless forklift maneuvers activated it.



#254
MassivelyEffective0730

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You mention experts and orders to wait for them to arrive and such to investigate/transport the beacon, but remember: the Normandy *is* the transport. There are no "experts" there to speak of, so as many have said earlier, the very nest person to step forward would have activated the beacon and instead of arguing whether or not one of the two VS's was incompetent, it would be whether or not Corporal Thomspon's reckless forklift maneuvers activated it.

 

Sure, the Beacon might have gone off no matter what. Put it like that. But the issue to me is that the person who was closest to the Beacon, either Kaidan or Ashley (and walking towards it), was not exercising situational awareness, discretion, and caution that I would expect of a professional Soldier. 



#255
DeinonSlayer

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When Shepard was making a call to the Normandy about securing the beacon and making his report on the situation, Ashley is commenting on the Beacon not behaving or acting the way it was when it was initially recovered. Shepard was occupied with his report here. Granted, he could have issued a stay/hold order, but it also should have been to the knowledge of both that they don't approach important mission objective point items without authorization: for example, you shouldn't have to give an order for Soldiers not to approach a suspected IED emplacement, or a possible Signal asset captured from enemy forces (a Radio, a Walky-Talky, an encryption device, etc.) You secure their positions and hold security while the experts arrive. Those are standard operations procedures of modern militaries for a reason, and if they don't apply in the ME-universe, it speaks about their incompetence and disconnection from actual, logical military procedure.
 
I'm not saying I exactly agree with all those examples: Shepard certainly was being reckless with those. That said, it's also a separate thread for the argument. I don't agree with it any more than I agree with how Kaidan/Ashley acted.

If there is a standard operating procedure governing this kind of situation, and she violated it, then I withdraw my argument.

#256
FlyingSquirrel

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Those are standard operations procedures of modern militaries for a reason, and if they don't apply in the ME-universe, it speaks about their incompetence and disconnection from actual, logical military procedure.

 

I think maybe that's the real issue here, though. I don't know if Bioware had any military consultants reviewing the ME series for them or if any of their people have been in the military, but my guess is that military accuracy just wasn't at the top of the agenda for the writing staff. (And I'll admit that I know precisely jack about this and military inaccuracies probably just fly over my head.) To the extent that Shepard, Ashley, or anyone else sometimes betrays lack of military discipline or proper procedure, it's likely an unintentional side effect rather than something that actually defines their character, *unless* it is called out as such in-game. While Shepard can reprimand Ashley for approaching the beacon, Anderson doesn't seem to think it's a "you don't belong on the Normandy"-level offense, and if Shepard agrees with bringing Ashley on board, Anderson comments that Kaidan agrees too. So it's evidently considered a relatively minor breach in terms of how we're meant to view her character.

 

It's kind of like the people who like to argue that the Empire aren't really the bad guys in Star Wars or that the Rebels are unworthy of defeating them because the Jedi are elitists, because innocent people are killed when the Death Star blows up, or whatever. The politics aren't the point of Star Wars, and Lucas apparently means for the Rebellion and the Empire to stand as archetypes of good and evil, so that argument really just boils down to an argument that the story itself is flawed. If innocent people are killed when the Death Star blows up, that doesn't tell us that Luke Skywalker knows that and doesn't care. It tells us that he isn't written well enough to consider it or have an opinion about it in the first place.



#257
Iakus

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Sure, the Beacon might have gone off no matter what. Put it like that. But the issue to me is that the person who was closest to the Beacon, either Kaidan or Ashley (and walking towards it), was not exercising situational awareness, discretion, and caution that I would expect of a professional Soldier. 

 

It sounds like you're blaming them for not reading the script


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#258
KaiserShep

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Or an actual forklift. There's one on Omega. Not a space forklift. Not an advanced, crazy mass effect field using forklift. Just a regular everyday 21st century forklift. Go figure.


Why does the hamster get to have the title of space pet, but the forklift has to just be a forklift?

#259
DeinonSlayer

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Why does the hamster get to have the title of space pet, but the forklift has to just be a forklift?

Clearly Crutch is rrrrrrracist! against synthetics, and must be merged with a forklift to gain new understanding.
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#260
Invisible Man

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honestly... massively, I think you are being a bit unreasonable on this particular issue. but that's just my opinion.

#261
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Or an actual forklift. There's one on Omega. Not a space forklift. Not an advanced, crazy mass effect field using forklift. Just a regular everyday 21st century forklift. Go figure.

 

About the VS and the Eden Prime beacon: It's not clear-cut one way or another. What's the minimum safe distance before the beacon activates? Anyone know? When the VS walks towards it, are they being compelled? Or are they merely going "ooh shiny!"? That one's up to interpretation. Unless Word of God clarified it at some point.

 

If they were reasonably expected to know the minimum safe distance and they were closer, they're idiots. If they didn't it's dumb luck. If they were compelled (mind controlled) to walk forward, it's out of their hands. If not they're idiots.

 

Bottom line: Are the deciding factors (safe distance, compelled or no) known, or clarified? If no, it's all, you guessed it, speculations!

 

The problem is that the operator of the forklift would activate it by proximity.

 

There obviously was a forklift on the platform -- otherwise how did Saren and the geth get it there? Oh, via space magic?  It was at the dig site previously. 

 

What is very interesting is that the beacon was at the dig site, when Ashley had retreated from the colony, but was moved between her running and meeting Shepard.... And she doesn't know which side moved the beacon. Was it the Geth? or Our Side? Was it done with a fork lift or space magic? My bet is space magic since this is Mass Effect. 

 

Obviously it was moved by Saren's slaves who were finally doing what they were originally designed for... menial work, but they moved the beacon, and did such a quick job of it. I do have to hand it to them. Next the frightened dock worker was hiding and I don't know how he slept through the fighting, but suffice it to say he was well hidden, and didn't notice the beacon pass by being carried by a bunch of geth to the monorail. 

 

Saren used the beacon, and thus activated it. I can't blame Kaidan for getting sucked into the beacon. Instead I blame Drew Karpyshyn for crappy writing of the first mission which is full of plot holes and ass pulls like the rest of the story, but then this is Mass Effect.


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#262
KaiserShep

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It sounds like you're blaming them for not reading the script


That's what people get for not watching Robin Hood Men In Tights.
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#263
MassivelyEffective0730

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If there is a standard operating procedure governing this kind of situation, and she violated it, then I withdraw my argument.

 

I think maybe that's the real issue here, though. I don't know if Bioware had any military consultants reviewing the ME series for them or if any of their people have been in the military, but my guess is that military accuracy just wasn't at the top of the agenda for the writing staff. (And I'll admit that I know precisely jack about this and military inaccuracies probably just fly over my head.) To the extent that Shepard, Ashley, or anyone else sometimes betrays lack of military discipline or proper procedure, it's likely an unintentional side effect rather than something that actually defines their character, *unless* it is called out as such in-game. While Shepard can reprimand Ashley for approaching the beacon, Anderson doesn't seem to think it's a "you don't belong on the Normandy"-level offense, and if Shepard agrees with bringing Ashley on board, Anderson comments that Kaidan agrees too. So it's evidently considered a relatively minor breach in terms of how we're meant to view her character.

 

It's kind of like the people who like to argue that the Empire aren't really the bad guys in Star Wars or that the Rebels are unworthy of taking their place because the Jedi are elitists, because innocent people are killed when the Death Star blows up, or whatever. The politics aren't the point of Star Wars, and Lucas apparently means for the Rebellion and the Empire to stand as archetypes of good and evil, so that argument really just boils down to an argument that the story itself is flawed. If innocent people are killed when the Death Star blows up, that doesn't tell us that Luke Skywalker knows that and doesn't care. It tells us that he isn't written well enough to consider it or have an opinion about it in the first place.

 

Basically, yes it isn't quite written well enough to consider it. I see your point, and for the sake of not running this whole argument ad nauseam, I'll say that this is the best argument against my statement here: simply put, the story isn't complicated enough, and understandably -if regrettably - so.

 

Personally, I want to see something based on speculative future fiction of our own Earth to take things seriously and keep it realistic, implementing modern logic and tactical thought (and translating it into future principles that would apply). I think a strong basis in reality in practical narrative was required here. Since it is a futuristic ideal of the current timeline, Mass Effect's lore needs to be heavily based from modern reality. From there, they can take the liberties they require, provided they are explained and elaborated on, since it is meant to be a relatively hard, if slightly fantastical universe. Said lore then must be the basis for the story, and the story must not break that lore or narrative possibility. Any breaks in the lore must be properly and adequately explained. From those constraints, they can make their story. 

 

That's my personal opinion.

 

Therefore, if there is a standard operating procedure based on modern logic as I stipulated, I'd like to see it translate into Mass Effect. I'd like a speculative fictional future of Earth to be as technically accurate as possible. And I'll tell you, said logic is not like the hopeless ideal of perfecting the art of fighting the previous war in time for the next, but to maintain a capability to perform and adapt to situations as necessary. These are basic situations that are going to need to be fulfilled no matter what war you fight. You have an enemy that lays a bomb-trap? Secure the area and send in Engineers or EOD for proper disposal. Secure an enemy encryption device? Secure the area, get the SIGINT group from the S-2 shop in to send it up the CoC. Capture an EPW (Enemy Prisoner of War)? Secure him, call the MP's, take him in, then call me, the HUMINT guy and my team in for interrogation or interview.


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#264
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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. These are basic situations that are going to need to be fulfilled no matter what war you fight. You have an enemy that lays a bomb-trap? Secure the area and send in Engineers or EOD for proper disposal. Secure an enemy encryption device? Secure the area, get the SIGINT group from the S-2 shop in to send it up the CoC. Capture an EPW (Enemy Prisoner of War)? Secure him, call the MP's, take him in, then call me, the HUMINT guy and my team in for interrogation or interview.

I'm pretty sure everything that you listed can be done by an Omni-Tool. 

Shepard don't take no prisoners. 



#265
sH0tgUn jUliA

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You know that people may have wished that the MEU was hard sci-fi, but in reality it isn't. The writing is too inconsistent for it to be hard sci-fi. The number of plot holes in just the first mission of ME1 are enough to make me cringe. You're going to have to use the element "Hw" or Handwavium liberally to make things within the universe work, let alone make things within a single mission work frequently.


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#266
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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You know that people may have wished that the MEU was hard sci-fi, but in reality it isn't. The writing is too inconsistent for it to be hard sci-fi. The number of plot holes in just the first mission of ME1 are enough to make me cringe. You're going to have to use the element "Hw" or Handwavium liberally to make things within the universe work, let alone make things within a single mission work frequently.

To be fair, look at the alternative. Halo. 

ME wins that battle of consistency. 


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#267
eyezonlyii

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To be fair, look at the alternative. Halo. 

ME wins that battle of consistency. 

 

As a non Halo player, I ask you: what stands out?



#268
MassivelyEffective0730

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You know that people may have wished that the MEU was hard sci-fi, but in reality it isn't. The writing is too inconsistent for it to be hard sci-fi. The number of plot holes in just the first mission of ME1 are enough to make me cringe. You're going to have to use the element "Hw" or Handwavium liberally to make things within the universe work, let alone make things within a single mission work frequently.

 

Oh believe me I know it's not hard sci-fi. It started out as relatively hard sci-fi, but it deteriorated from that as the story went on until it was more or less mildly harder than your average sci-fi story. More to the point, it's a pulpy space opera, sliding more on the sci-fi side than fantasy, and shifting towards that as the series wore on. I'm just espousing what could have been, what I believe should have been.



#269
MassivelyEffective0730

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As a non Halo player, I ask you: what stands out?

 

Halo got progressively more and more fantastical as the story has worn on. Don't get me wrong, it's more ambitious than it's ever been, but it's also lost the element it had under Bungie. I call it the 'Alien' effect. The first game reminded me of Alien in its atmosphere and tone, and as the series wore on, it lost that effect.



#270
von uber

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I've never played Halo; all the videos I have seen on youtube just left me feeling 'meh'.



#271
MassivelyEffective0730

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I've never played Halo; all the videos I have seen on youtube just left me feeling 'meh'.

 

The first game is a must for any shooter fans. 2 was ambitious, but derailed by its split narrative. It was a good concept, but it was executed jarringly and at inappropriate points. My idea is that it should have had two campaigns that eventually tied together as the story went on; separate, but connected. You'd have the human campaign with Master Chief, and then you'd have the elite campaign with the Arbiter.


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#272
eyezonlyii

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I wonder in cases like these, whether or not there is a basic "military for dummies" guide for fiction writers. A guide of some sort for basic and common military tactics, structure and other stuff.

#273
DeinonSlayer

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I wonder in cases like these, whether or not there is a basic "military for dummies" guide for fiction writers. A guide of some sort for basic and common military tactics, structure and other stuff.

Got ya covered, brah.

#274
eyezonlyii

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Got ya covered, brah.


It won't open :(

#275
DeinonSlayer

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It won't open :(

Odd. It works for me.

Should be the first hit in Google for "writing military science fiction" (no quotes).