361 réponses à ce sujet

[Invisible Man]

is the Normandy still an alliance vessel when it's being captained by the spectre commander shepard, technically speaking?

[CrutchCricket]

And yes, her credentials do give her the means to serve on a squad. But her credentials are limited to keep her from serving on *my* squad. Tell me what credentials she has that no other NCO or Officer in the alliance should have?

 

You keep saying this. Let's try it another way. I'll grant everything you've said about her. She has no qualifications that another NCO doesn't.

 

She's still the only one available on Eden Prime. And you're a man short. Welcome to the team.

 

Now you can bitch about why you don't get the opportunity to transfer her after. Or you can headcanon a reason for why she stays.

 

Personally I think the second option is more constructive. Does the military believe in trial by fire? If by some random miracle a soldier finds himself in a position he wouldn't have gotten assigned to and kicks ass it at, is that acknowledged? Or does the CO keep beating them over the head about the qualificiations they lack on paper and send them packing? You can tell me it's the latter and I'll believe you. But I still think it's bullshit.

 

is the Normandy still an alliance vessel when it's being captained by the spectre commander shepard, technically speaking?

 

I'm going to go with "no".

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

is the Normandy still an alliance vessel when it's being captained by the spectre commander shepard, technically speaking?

Maybe in theory, it depends on Shepard's actions in relation to the Alliance, but in practice, it isn't. 

[DeinonSlayer]

I appreciate the idea, Crutch... as a historical example, though, Doris Miller remained a mess officer after his actions at Pearl Harbor (he did recieve high recognition and go on a War Bonds tour though). I won't assume he had no choice in the matter, but there it is.

[ImaginaryMatter]

You keep saying this. Let's try it another way. I'll grant everything you've said about her. She has no qualifications that another NCO doesn't.

 

She's still the only one available on Eden Prime. And you're a man short. Welcome to the team.

 

Now you can ****** about why you don't get the opportunity to transfer her after. Or you can headcanon a reason for why she stays.

 

Personally I think the second option is more constructive. Does the military believe in trial by fire? If by some random miracle a soldier finds himself in a position he wouldn't have gotten assigned to and kicks ass it at, is that acknowledged? Or does the CO keep beating them over the head about the qualificiations they lack on paper and send them packing? You can tell me it's the latter and I'll believe you. But I still think it's bullshit.

 

Ashley's inclusion might not be realistic but people do like an underdog story and I think as far as mainstream views go people get rewarded or are given a chance for a job well done. I know personally I would have never gotten as far on my team based on my 'paper' qualifications.

[CrutchCricket]

I appreciate the idea, Crutch... as a historical example, though, Doris Miller remained a mess officer after his actions at Pearl Harbor (he did recieve high recognition and go on a War Bonds tour though). I won't assume he had no choice in the matter, but there it is.

 

Interesting example. Though I suspect race politics had their hand in it, given the time. If we go to the history books, we should also look for something closer in skills. Going from cook to gunner or corspman would be a big jump.

 

In our case we're just wondering if Ashley can prove herself from "good soldier" to "good enough soldier" as Massively keeps demanding.

[KaiserShep]

Ashley isn't so bad. It's not like she went all Hudson on us proclaiming that it's game over man, game over.

[DeinonSlayer]

Interesting example. Though I suspect race politics had their hand in it, given the time. If we go to the history books, we should also look for something closer in skills. Going from cook to gunner or corspman would be a big jump.

In our case we're just wondering if Ashley can prove herself from "good soldier" to "good enough soldier" as Massively keeps demanding.

I suppose that would rest on the judgment of her CO. Massively suggested that even if Shepard recommended her for OCS, the "Williams Curse" would likely continue to hound her and impede career progression (thus there was no reason to recommend her for it).

[TheTurtle]

It's a very valid comparison. Take it from someone who has had to experience their brand of hate and bigotry as an atheist. Especially one in the military (in the anonymity of the internet, I can say that it is a bastion of religious zealotry. Not that everyone or even most are, but they can be vocal, and they can get away with it. Especially since many of the most vocal are in command positions.) I've been reprimanded for not being a 'spiritually fit' Soldier.

I maintain my position on her. As well, whether or not I belong to a group does not invalidate or discredit a point based on that merit alone. You can make a general comparison with something about the military and I won't contest it if it's a valid comparison.

But you specifically said gays. There is a clear clear difference between the dislike of gays and the dislike of atheist.

Being an African american lesbian atheist I know what unwavering religious zealots are like and I know there are varying degrees to their hate. When was the last time you saw someone get kicked out of their home because they are athiest? I can tell you the statistics for that are much lower than those for people coming out.

If you had used atheism as your example then it wouldn't be a problem as you have experience in the subject and can back it appropriately. On the subject of religious zealots vs homosexuals you have no experience, no firsthand knowledge. In this case it is not just a general comparison you are commenting on a very specific situation.

I'm telling you from real actual expirence that Williams loyalty to the Alliance is nowhere near that of a zealots persecution and condemnation of gays. At least Ashley when confronted with a situation in which she must trust Shepard she is willing to listen; the same cannot be said about a zealot.

So I stand by my point your comparison was religious and it shows a clear bias.

On topic I think the XO would either be VS or Adams.

[CrutchCricket]

I suppose that would rest on the judgment of her CO. Massively suggested that even if Shepard recommended her for OCS, the "Williams Curse" would likely continue to hound her and impede career progression (thus there was no reason to recommend her for it).

 

Well since you can't transfer her I would argue that canonically Shepard judges that she is good enough. All we have to do is headcanon what that means to us. And if Massively can infer all sorts of training and experience from Jenkins, a joke throwaway NPC he should be able to do the same for Ashley. But he won't, because he doesn't like her. To each his own.

 

As for the recommendation, how long does it take to write a letter? Hell there's probably a template. Even if it just ends up being a token effort, you could say you tried.

[KaiserShep]

I suppose that would rest on the judgment of her CO. Massively suggested that even if Shepard recommended her for OCS, the "Williams Curse" would likely continue to hound her and impede career progression (thus there was no reason to recommend her for it).

 

Doesn't Ashley's promotion after serving under Shepard's command kind of disprove this?

[CrutchCricket]

Doesn't Ashley's promotion after serving under Shepard's command kind of disprove this?

 

While the scale is unrealistic, good point. I think it would. Hell even ME2's promotion and classified nature of her assignment would suggest the Williams curse is finally lifting.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Well since you can't transfer her I would argue that canonically Shepard judges that she is good enough. All we have to do is headcanon what that means to us. And if Massively can infer all sorts of training and experience from Jenkins, a joke throwaway NPC he should be able to do the same for Ashley. But he won't, because he doesn't like her. To each his own.

 

As for the recommendation, how long does it take to write a letter? Hell there's probably a template. Even if it just ends up being a token effort, you could say you tried.

 

Well since you can't transfer her I would argue that canonically Shepard judges that she is good enough. All we have to do is headcanon what that means to us. And if Massively can infer all sorts of training and experience from Jenkins, a joke throwaway NPC he should be able to do the same for Ashley. But he won't, because he doesn't like her. To each his own.

 

As for the recommendation, how long does it take to write a letter? Hell there's probably a template. Even if it just ends up being a token effort, you could say you tried.

 

Months and months of bullcrap. Of course, if they like you, they'll make it happen in days. And as I explained to you on why Shepard kept Ashley one time, if they don't like you, they can make things happen, but its generally still a longer than if they like you. I think I explained Shepard would pretty much be too busy chasing down Saren to put in a package for a change of post for Ashley.

 

Not my fault I have an intimate understanding of the military. I can tell you plenty about that sort of stuff. It's entirely possible to have a Specialist or even a PFC who has Airborne, Ranger, and EIB locked under his belt and is tracking for SF candidacy while some Sergeant or Staff Sergeant doesn't even have deployment patch (though in all honesty, Ashley's lucky; If they really don't like you, they will try to get you killed or wounded by putting you on a mobilized unit that's really in the ****. Of course, they're also just as likely too screw you over by not doing that and putting you in charge of some DFAC or motor pool in some armpit post like Ft. Polk. Essentially, they'll just keep doing the opposite of what you want. They can't actually kick you out of the military until you're expiration, term of service). 

 

As I've said, I suppose my experience gives me a perspective on how it's entirely possible that Jenkins, a nobody, can notionally have more training and experience than Ashley. He's a Corporal. He's good enough of a Marine that he's been assigned to the most advanced ship in the fleet and operating on a top secret mission. I'm giving credit where it's due to him. He has to be good if he's on that boat.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

While the scale is unrealistic, good point. I think it would. Hell even ME2's promotion and classified nature of her assignment would suggest the Williams curse is finally lifting.

 

I think the whole thing there is part of the anti-politics ideal that gets tossed around a bit in the ME-verse. Anderson is pulling strings for her.

 

And yes, it is still in practice to blacklist names in the military. You will occasionally see an Officer who is the scion of a big name, and that includes names that are considered 'spammed' (I don't know what the actual term used nowadays is since it's actually one of the power-games played by senior brass at Washington do, of which I am not nor will likely never be a part of). You'll see an Officer who had a father or grandfather who screwed up and will find his career opportunities hitting a wall once he becomes a Captain. There are even officers who's family name is bugged that they're refused entrance into the Academy of whatever branch they're in, and have to take an alternate route to officership that ensures that they aren't part of the good ol' boy system.

[CrutchCricket]

I think the whole thing there is part of the anti-politics ideal that gets tossed around a bit in the ME-verse. Anderson is pulling strings for her.

 

And yes, it is still in practice to blacklist names in the military. You will occasionally see an Officer who is the scion of a big name, and that includes names that are considered 'spammed' (I don't know what the actual term used nowadays is since it's actually one of the power-games played by senior brass at Washington do, of which I am not nor will likely never be a part of). You'll see an Officer who had a father or grandfather who screwed up and will find his career opportunities hitting a wall once he becomes a Captain. There are even officers who's family name is bugged that they're refused entrance into the Academy of whatever branch they're in, and have to take an alternate route to officership that ensures that they aren't part of the good ol' boy system.

 

Well then I'm glad someone pulls strings for her because that's just atrocious. New headcanon: My Shepard saves and encourage Ashleys because that kind of **** disgusts him.

 

I see no military worth in that kind of thinking. It's high school levels of clique-y bullshit only they have guns, are in charge of school security and they get medals when they put down the **** rival schools start up.

 

Godspeed to anyone who can brave that system, but that's the kind of stuff that makes me want to be done with humanity altogether.

[Iakus]

I think the whole thing there is part of the anti-politics ideal that gets tossed around a bit in the ME-verse. Anderson is pulling strings for her.

 

And yes, it is still in practice to blacklist names in the military. You will occasionally see an Officer who is the scion of a big name, and that includes names that are considered 'spammed' (I don't know what the actual term used nowadays is since it's actually one of the power-games played by senior brass at Washington do, of which I am not nor will likely never be a part of). You'll see an Officer who had a father or grandfather who screwed up and will find his career opportunities hitting a wall once he becomes a Captain. There are even officers who's family name is bugged that they're refused entrance into the Academy of whatever branch they're in, and have to take an alternate route to officership that ensures that they aren't part of the good ol' boy system.

 

While I'm sure Anderson taking her under his wing is a part of it, I think all of Shepard's crew god major brownie points for being "Heroes of the Citadel"

 

I mean, Garrus was able to come back to C-Sec (until he got sick of it) after essentially storming off in a huff over his Saren investigation.

 

And Shepard tells the admirals at Tali's trial that she showed the galaxy that quarians aren't all thieving suit rats

[CrutchCricket]

While I'm sure Anderson taking her under his wing is a part of it, I think all of Shepard's crew god major brownie points for being "Heroes of the Citadel"

 

Nowhere better exemplified than Jack becoming a teacher, of all things.

 

Psycho-convict with untold destructive potential, teaching your kids? Wait, she's with Shepard. It's all good!

 

Hell if that's the way it works in the MEverse, Ashley can make Admiral before she's 40. What's next? Aria for mayor?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

 

You keep saying this. Let's try it another way. I'll grant everything you've said about her. She has no qualifications that another NCO doesn't.

 

She's still the only one available on Eden Prime. And you're a man short. Welcome to the team.

 

Now you can ****** about why you don't get the opportunity to transfer her after. Or you can headcanon a reason for why she stays.

 

Personally I think the second option is more constructive. Does the military believe in trial by fire? If by some random miracle a soldier finds himself in a position he wouldn't have gotten assigned to and kicks ass it at, is that acknowledged? Or does the CO keep beating them over the head about the qualificiations they lack on paper and send them packing? You can tell me it's the latter and I'll believe you. But I still think it's bullshit.

 

 

Of course I'll keep the person. That said, she still has her unit, that she is (by virtue of being alive and a lot of paperwork) still a member of. She isn't necessarily a part of my team. She's now an attached personnel. But this is technicalities for the moment. The extra gun is needed.

 

The military does not believe in a trial by fire in this regard. And it's not bullshit, for good reason. Special qualifications really do make you a superior soldier. Not in the manner that you're higher than anyone else, but in that you have shown that you're up to the task and take your profession seriously. Now of course, there are other ways of showing and doing this. But these are applicable special skills and duties that you can take and bring to your unit and disseminate the information and training. The skills that they lack on paper are the same exact skills that they lack in reality. I'll say this; Ashley managed to survive (and I'm not going into the hows) on Eden Prime. Does that mean she's qualified to run a Special Operations mission of the utmost and absolute highest need on board the most advanced ship in the galaxy? The CO won't beat over the head the lack of qualifications (mainly since they themselves are responsible for submitting packages to said training schools after reviewing the packages from Soldiers requesting special assignments, training, or schools). But they will remind a Soldier where their skills lie, and where they lack skills and what jobs that they are unqualified for. The people writing down the credentials may be old ladies or bored specialists in admin. jobs, but they're written up based on the evaluations and judgement of trained, experienced, and skilled instructors who have seen what each candidate for their position has. And they're the ones who accept applications to schools in the first place. So yes, if I see a Soldier (or a Marine in this case) that lacks qualifications and skills on paper, I can be 99% certain that they do indeed lack said qualifications and skill, let alone experience.

 

I didn't personally see any ass-kicking from her. All I saw was me saving her and her moving with me as I cleared out everything with Kaidan. Kaidan would hit them with a tech or biotic field, and I'd rip them apart with gunfire. She provided rear security. What exactly was I seeing that she kicked ass at? I specifically remember calling her out post-mission and telling her that I expected better from Marines, and that, when she (very unprofessionally) spoke out on my questioning of her competency, I replied that I was willing to evaluate differently in the presence of displayed competence.

[KaiserShep]

This takes me back to the discussion about how the Sole Survivor background for Shepard was the least impressive. Even Udina seems to reflect this in the introduction of ME1.

[DeinonSlayer]

This takes me back to the discussion about how the Sole Survivor background for Shepard was the least impressive. Even Udina seems to reflect this in the introduction of ME1.

It casts things in a very different light if you roleplay your Sole Survivor as secretly being a member of Cerberus from the beginning...

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Well then I'm glad someone pulls strings for her because that's just atrocious. New headcanon: My Shepard saves and encourage Ashleys because that kind of **** disgusts him.

 

I see no military worth in that kind of thinking. It's high school levels of clique-y bullshit only they have guns, are in charge of school security and they get medals when they put down the **** rival schools start up.

 

Godspeed to anyone who can brave that system, but that's the kind of stuff that makes me want to be done with humanity altogether.

 

I'll be honest with you: having been in long enough to see this sort of stuff, I can understand exactly where the people in the system are coming from. I disagree with it, but I see the logic to it; Hell, had I joined the Navy, I very likely would have benefited from it myself. I went Army instead, but that was more because I wanted to get money for College fast, so I joined the branch where I could join earliest. I only needed to be 17 to Enlist in the Army National Guard, so that was where I went. The answer is that it really does breed contempt and critical evaluation. Yes, it's cronyism, but at the same time, military cronyism is a bit different from corporate or private cronyism. The logic is that it does breed contempt for the system, and that produces Soldiers and Officers that are more negative with a destabilizing ideal. It's considered a presence that will potentially 'menace' their colleagues.

 

My Shepard doesn't do it; he's not playing cronyism games, he's just evaluating her from what he's seen, and he's not impressed. Honestly, I don't see why she deserves strings to be pulled. She's got to do something really important and valuable, more so than just surviving. Now, single handedly  holding off the Geth while protecting her unit would be such a maneuver. Even then, you don't take a Soldier or Marine who manned a .50 and held off the enemy at a critical time and point and automatically put him in Ranger Battalion or Special Forces Company, let alone a extra-command Special Operations mission that is of the most critical nature to national security (or galactic security). For Ashley, I'd have put her on track for special schools and training. Let her work her way up, and let the evaluators decide if she has what it takes at each step. 

[KaiserShep]

It casts things in a very different light if you roleplay your Sole Survivor as secretly being a member of Cerberus from the beginning...

 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

This takes me back to the discussion about how the Sole Survivor background for Shepard was the least impressive. Even Udina seems to reflect this in the introduction of ME1.

 

We aren't really given a lot of context about that mission imo to really make an informed view about it IMO.

 

What Shepard did there was extraordinary. How it's well known across the galaxy is odd, but his actions alone showed the kind of guy who has the boundless will to survive. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that it makes a lot of sense either about the mission. Supposedly, there was a mission of some sort according to the Renegade dialogue about Akuze on the Shuttle from the Lazarus space station to Minuteman station.

[CrutchCricket]

The military does not believe in a trial by fire in this regard. And it's not bullshit, for good reason. Special qualifications really do make you a superior soldier. Not in the manner that you're higher than anyone else, but in that you have shown that you're up to the task and take your profession seriously.

 
What? I thought special qualifications mean you can do things other soldiers can't. Taking your profession seriously I thought was just expected of every soldier, as is being up to the task (with the training determining what that task is). When I mention Ashley's dedication and willingness to prove herself, you said that's routine and expected of everyone. So which is it? Is everyone supposed to have it? Or is it only those who are specially qualified?
 

Now of course, there are other ways of showing and doing this. But these are applicable special skills and duties that you can take and bring to your unit and disseminate the information and training. The skills that they lack on paper are the same exact skills that they lack in reality. I'll say this; Ashley managed to survive (and I'm not going into the hows) on Eden Prime. Does that mean she's qualified to run a Special Operations mission of the utmost and absolute highest need on board the most advanced ship in the galaxy?

 
Other ways, such as physically demonstrating her competence in an area where it doesn't say she has training? Because that's what I was asking. Skills on paper are skills in RL fine. But paper is written by men and can be incomplete. I don't mean through negligence or falsification. I just mean Ashley has never been trained and tested for skill x so her paper say she doesn't have skill x. But if she demonstrates skill x in the field, again by some random act of chance, is that ignored?

And no, Ashley is not qualified to run the Special OPs mission. But she's not running it is she? She's just another gun. And since you like to compare her to Jenkins, is Jenkins qualified to run the mission? No. The mission to track down Saren is not the original mission of the Normandy. The original mission was a shakedown with a secret pickup. Is there such a thing as a test crew for military vessels? People that can run the tech but that wouldn't be assigned in combat situations? Because if that's the case the entire crew could potentially be unqualified for current mission. But they're what what you have and they do pretty well all things considered. So maybe the whole mission isn't as neat and orderly as what military regs would specify. But they come through in the end. Would that not matter at all in future decisions?
 

The CO won't beat over the head the lack of qualifications (mainly since they themselves are responsible for submitting packages to said training schools after reviewing the packages from Soldiers requesting special assignments, training, or schools). But they will remind a Soldier where their skills lie, and where they lack skills and what jobs that they are unqualified for. The people writing down the credentials may be old ladies or bored specialists in admin. jobs, but they're written up based on the evaluations and judgement of trained, experienced, and skilled instructors who have seen what each candidate for their position has. And they're the ones who accept applications to schools in the first place. So yes, if I see a Soldier (or a Marine in this case) that lacks qualifications and skills on paper, I can be 99% certain that they do indeed lack said qualifications and skill, let alone experience.

 
I accept all of this as fact. But again, if you saw that soldier demonstrate the skill or qualification you were previously 99% sure they didn't have, would you acknowledge it?
 

I didn't personally see any ass-kicking from her. All I saw was me saving her and her moving with me as I cleared out everything with Kaidan. Kaidan would hit them with a tech or biotic field, and I'd rip them apart with gunfire. She provided rear security. What exactly was I seeing that she kicked ass at? I specifically remember calling her out post-mission and telling her that I expected better from Marines, and that, when she (very unprofessionally) spoke out on my questioning of her competency, I replied that I was willing to evaluate differently in the presence of displayed competence.

I personally found her more useful than Kaidan. I let each of them do their thing and just sniped. She provided supressing fire and mowed down everyone I missed.

 

But Eden Prime isn't the only place she can prove herself. You have the whole business on the Citadel before you set out again. Again, if your playstyle made more use of Kaidan, there isn't going to be much empirical evidence for you as to how well Ashley handles herself in a fight. But the way the story unfolds she does well enough to stay on.

[CrutchCricket]

I'll be honest with you: having been in long enough to see this sort of stuff, I can understand exactly where the people in the system are coming from. I disagree with it, but I see the logic to it; Hell, had I joined the Navy, I very likely would have benefited from it myself. I went Army instead, but that was more because I wanted to get money for College fast, so I joined the branch where I could join earliest. I only needed to be 17 to Enlist in the Army National Guard, so that was where I went. The answer is that it really does breed contempt and critical evaluation. Yes, it's cronyism, but at the same time, military cronyism is a bit different from corporate or private cronyism. The logic is that it does breed contempt for the system, and that produces Soldiers and Officers that are more negative with a destabilizing ideal. It's considered a presence that will potentially 'menace' their colleagues.

 

My Shepard doesn't do it; he's not playing cronyism games, he's just evaluating her from what he's seen, and he's not impressed. Honestly, I don't see why she deserves strings to be pulled. She's got to do something really important and valuable, more so than just surviving. Now, single handedly  holding off the Geth while protecting her unit would be such a maneuver. Even then, you don't take a Soldier or Marine who manned a .50 and held off the enemy at a critical time and point and automatically put him in Ranger Battalion or Special Forces Company, let alone a extra-command Special Operations mission that is of the most critical nature to national security (or galactic security). For Ashley, I'd have put her on track for special schools and training. Let her work her way up, and let the evaluators decide if she has what it takes at each step. 

 

I don't understand how people that hold the system in contempt make better soldiers or officers, and I wouldn't understand it in a private sector organization either. And in any case, that's not the way you initially presented it. There's a difference between treating recruits like dirt because of "tough love" and "builds character" and active discrimination based on family history or "because we just don't like you". How do those people being kept down for what their grandfather did or because they have a face the top guys just don't like become better soldiers? What does the military gain from it besides the petty satisfaction of one individual having power over another and using it to make their lives miserable for kicks?