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#351
KaiserShep

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I always thought ME1 Ashley was super useful and was pretty much a powerhouse. My ME1 Vanguard did have assault rifle training as a bonus on top of pistol and shotgun weaponry, but Ashley is pretty much the *only* gun-slinging Swiss Army knife of the group outside of soldier Shep, and served very well to that end for one who took her on lots of missions along with Kaidan or Garrus. The only reason Ashley stays dead for my canon femShep is because I took a chance and ended up with Kaidan at the bomb site, and the bomb site was the priority.

 

I think Ashley's character is treated unfairly.



#352
MassivelyEffective0730

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What? I thought special qualifications mean you can do things other soldiers can't. Taking your profession seriously I thought was just expected of every soldier, as is being up to the task (with the training determining what that task is). When I mention Ashley's dedication and willingness to prove herself, you said that's routine and expected of everyone. So which is it? Is everyone supposed to have it? Or is it only those who are specially qualified?
 

 
Other ways, such as physically demonstrating her competence in an area where it doesn't say she has training? Because that's what I was asking. Skills on paper are skills in RL fine. But paper is written by men and can be incomplete. I don't mean through negligence or falsification. I just mean Ashley has never been trained and tested for skill x so her paper say she doesn't have skill x. But if she demonstrates skill x in the field, again by some random act of chance, is that ignored?

And no, Ashley is not qualified to run the Special OPs mission. But she's not running it is she? She's just another gun. And since you like to compare her to Jenkins, is Jenkins qualified to run the mission? No. The mission to track down Saren is not the original mission of the Normandy. The original mission was a shakedown with a secret pickup. Is there such a thing as a test crew for military vessels? People that can run the tech but that wouldn't be assigned in combat situations? Because if that's the case the entire crew could potentially be unqualified for current mission. But they're what what you have and they do pretty well all things considered. So maybe the whole mission isn't as neat and orderly as what military regs would specify. But they come through in the end. Would that not matter at all in future decisions?
 

 
I accept all of this as fact. But again, if you saw that soldier demonstrate the skill or qualification you were previously 99% sure they didn't have, would you acknowledge it?
 


I personally found her more useful than Kaidan. I let each of them do their thing and just sniped. She provided supressing fire and mowed down everyone I missed.

 

But Eden Prime isn't the only place she can prove herself. You have the whole business on the Citadel before you set out again. Again, if your playstyle made more use of Kaidan, there isn't going to be much empirical evidence for you as to how well Ashley handles herself in a fight. But the way the story unfolds she does well enough to stay on.

 

On the first point: It was bad wording on my part. I was trying to emphasize that special qualifications didn't mean that you were necessarily a superior person with a higher being; Yes I've seen egotistical soldiers who think they're the **** when they get their Airborne Badge. That's more what I mean. Ideally, yes, Ashley's dedication is to be expected from everyone. That said, special skills, training, and experience make you a more versatile Soldier with more training, further access to additional training, and more adaptability.

 

On the second point: if she's never been trained or tested or experienced in a skill, how would she know it? There isn't a lot of things in the military that require natural affinity when it comes to these skills. They really do have to be learned. And if she did know these skills without any qualifications, two possibilities immediately come to mind: One, somebody else in her unit had the training and disseminated to the rest of the unit, or two, she did have the skills but they weren't on paper. Which would go down as an administrative failure somewhere down the line, possibly even intentional. If she did possess such skills, I'd probably have her assigned to a unit that specializes in applications of such skills.

 

When I say run, I'm not referring to her being in charge of it, I'm referring to her participation. I'm saying she's not qualified to be on the mission period. Jenkins may well not be up to the task of chasing down Saren. And no, you don't have a shakedown cruise or run an op with a test group. The test group already tested the ship in port. The sea (or space trials) have already been run as well. An actual shakedown cruise is performed by its actual operational crew compliment. Which means that Jenkins is a part of the crew, as is everyone else. A shakedown is when the performance of a ship is tested with the actual crew of the ship before being declared operational, whether with a new vessel, a crew change, after an overhaul, or a repair. As for the case, no it would not matter.

 

If I personally saw a Soldier performing a skill he wasn't supposed to have? I'd be getting suspicious and doing some digging on his history. I'd be interviewing him about his skill and wondering how or where he picked it up. I'd tell him that I have an SOP in place and that he's not to deviate from it, and leave his 'skill' to the discretion of his chain of command that's below me while I continued my investigation. Because if he has a skill he's not supposed to have, that actually has alarm bells ringing off about this Soldier. Chances are, if the Soldier has a skill he doesn't have training to utilize or perform, he's going to have lied about it, especially since I expressly went over Soldier records with all incoming arrivals (and anyone who had been in the unit prior to myself taking command would have interviewed them over their record). And if he's lying about a skill that he's not suppose to have, I'm wondering where this Soldier got his training to begin with.


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#353
MassivelyEffective0730

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I don't understand how people that hold the system in contempt make better soldiers or officers, and I wouldn't understand it in a private sector organization either. And in any case, that's not the way you initially presented it. There's a difference between treating recruits like dirt because of "tough love" and "builds character" and active discrimination based on family history or "because we just don't like you". How do those people being kept down for what their grandfather did or because they have a face the top guys just don't like become better soldiers? What does the military gain from it besides the petty satisfaction of one individual having power over another and using it to make their lives miserable for kicks?

 

Ring-knockers have tremendous ego's. Nowadays, the system is more biased towards giving opportunities to people in the system than actually keeping people out of the system down. There's a reason guys at the Academy get first pick for everything on their Order of Merit List. 


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#354
DeinonSlayer

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I always thought ME1 Ashley was super useful and was pretty much a powerhouse. My ME1 Vanguard did have assault rifle training as a bonus on top of pistol and shotgun weaponry, but Ashley is pretty much the *only* gun-slinging Swiss Army knife of the group outside of soldier Shep, and served very well to that end for one who took her on lots of missions along with Kaidan or Garrus. The only reason Ashley stays dead for my canon femShep is because I took a chance and ended up with Kaidan at the bomb site, and the bomb site was the priority.
 
I think Ashley's character is treated unfairly.

Problem for me was that Ashley had only one power available for whichever weapon she had equipped. Equip Ashley with a shotgun, and she gives me Carnage. Equip Tali or Wrex with a shotgun, and they give me Carnage, Decryption, Overload, AI hacking, Damping, Warp, Throw, etc. in addition to having crazy shields/health.

#355
Iakus

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I always thought ME1 Ashley was super useful and was pretty much a powerhouse. My ME1 Vanguard did have assault rifle training as a bonus on top of pistol and shotgun weaponry, but Ashley is pretty much the *only* gun-slinging Swiss Army knife of the group outside of soldier Shep, and served very well to that end for one who took her on lots of missions along with Kaidan or Garrus. The only reason Ashley stays dead for my canon femShep is because I took a chance and ended up with Kaidan at the bomb site, and the bomb site was the priority.

 

I think Ashley's character is treated unfairly.

 

Same.  As an Infiltrator, having someone who can deal with the short-range stuff while I deal with the back rows is quite valuable.  Which is why Ash and Wrex were my preferred go-to squadmates in ME1



#356
MassivelyEffective0730

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While I'm sure Anderson taking her under his wing is a part of it, I think all of Shepard's crew god major brownie points for being "Heroes of the Citadel"

 

I mean, Garrus was able to come back to C-Sec (until he got sick of it) after essentially storming off in a huff over his Saren investigation.

 

And Shepard tells the admirals at Tali's trial that she showed the galaxy that quarians aren't all thieving suit rats

 

Garrus was already a tried and tested component. Remember, the guy was already a Spectre candidate once, before he ever joined the mission. I'm sure there were enough people at C-Sec (and considering his father, who has a lot of clout with them and wanted him back at C-Sec) who left the door open for him to return.

 

As for Tali, she also provided a very valuable gift to the Quarians regarding the Geth. However, I think Shepard's statement was more of an attempt to appeal to the dignity of the Quarians. It certainly isn't true that the Quarians are still held in a lot of respect; just look at the Quarian on the Citadel in ME2. She's threatened to be run in by C-Sec for a crime she didn't commit, and even after her innocence is proven, she's still threatened with vagrancy charges.


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#357
CrutchCricket

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When I say run, I'm not referring to her being in charge of it, I'm referring to her participation. I'm saying she's not qualified to be on the mission period. Jenkins may well not be up to the task of chasing down Saren. And no, you don't have a shakedown cruise or run an op with a test group. The test group already tested the ship in port. The sea (or space trials) have already been run as well. An actual shakedown cruise is performed by its actual operational crew compliment. Which means that Jenkins is a part of the crew, as is everyone else. A shakedown is when the performance of a ship is tested with the actual crew of the ship before being declared operational, whether with a new vessel, a crew change, after an overhaul, or a repair. As for the case, no it would not matter.


Fine, forget the test crew. The point about the mission changing remains. Chasing Saren is far different than a maiden voyage with a single pickup, regardless of how secretive that is. Which means some or all of the crew may now be less than fully qualified. And at the end of the day the job got done. Not acknowledging that would be a huge mistake. If the military wants to then formally train the crew for the kind of special operation they just did, in order to dot all the i's and cross all the t's that's fine. But sticking them back in useless dead-end assignments after they've proven they can handle more is just a colossal waste. If you say that's how it is in the real world I'll believe you. But this is one point where I'm glad they diverge from reality and if I were writing I'd do the same.
 

If I personally saw a Soldier performing a skill he wasn't supposed to have? I'd be getting suspicious and doing some digging on his history. I'd be interviewing him about his skill and wondering how or where he picked it up. I'd tell him that I have an SOP in place and that he's not to deviate from it, and leave his 'skill' to the discretion of his chain of command that's below me while I continued my investigation. Because if he has a skill he's not supposed to have, that actually has alarm bells ringing off about this Soldier. Chances are, if the Soldier has a skill he doesn't have training to utilize or perform, he's going to have lied about it, especially since I expressly went over Soldier records with all incoming arrivals (and anyone who had been in the unit prior to myself taking command would have interviewed them over their record). And if he's lying about a skill that he's not suppose to have, I'm wondering where this Soldier got his training to begin with.

 

Why would they lie about having a skill?



#358
KaiserShep

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I guess if they were trained by fascist batarians that joined the Qun.

 

"Private, where did you learn how to snap a krogan's neck like that?"

"Practiced on cattle on my daddy's farm, SIR!"



#359
MassivelyEffective0730

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Fine, forget the test crew. The point about the mission changing remains. Chasing Saren is far different than a maiden voyage with a single pickup, regardless of how secretive that is. Which means some or all of the crew may now be less than fully qualified. And at the end of the day the job got done. Not acknowledging that would be a huge mistake. If the military wants to then formally train the crew for the kind of special operation they just did, in order to dot all the i's and cross all the t's that's fine. But sticking them back in useless dead-end assignments after they've proven they can handle more is just a colossal waste. If you say that's how it is in the real world I'll believe you. But this is one point where I'm glad they diverge from reality and if I were writing I'd do the same.
 

 

Why would they lie about having a skill?

 

The thing is that each of them were assigned to the Normandy as her regular crew. Now, crews for ships get rotated every so often, but the Normandy is a state of the art vessel that incorporates the highest level of technology for stealth and secrecy missions: As far as the actual crew goes, every one of them is ready and trained for the mission. This is going to be the primary crew of the ship. They've already had all their training. Many of the more senior staff all have practical experience and knowledge from years of service with the fleet. For the newest, fastest, most expensive, and most technologically sophisticated ship in the galaxy, they aren't cherries flying about for the maidan voyage. Even the commanding officer and executive officer are two of the most experienced and respected officers in the Fleet. They're the best there is to have. There's no one else better suited to hunting down Saren. 

 

As for the skill, to be as basic as possible, Kaiser put it succinctly. Suffice to say, if they're lying about things that are or aren't on their record, that's a security risk.

 

I'll add a bit more; If they have the skill, it will be on their record. If it's not on their record, then they're lying about it. If they're lying about it, something's up. If something's up with one of my Soldiers, that's cause for investigation on my part. As for why they would lie, I really can't give you a basic, cover-all answer. I've never had it happen, nor have I ever known a case where it happened for a complicated skill that needs to be learned from a special school. If they have experience prior to it, they would put it down on a listing of additional qualifications. For example, if they learned how to climb as a civilian, they would put it down as a skill with no formal qualification, and when I interview them, I'd ask them about it. However, those aren't the skills I'm referring too. I'm referring to more specific, technical oriented skills that would specifically need to be learned in a special training environment.


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#360
Iakus

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The thing is that each of them were assigned to the Normandy as her regular crew. Now, crews for ships get rotated every so often, but the Normandy is a state of the art vessel that incorporates the highest level of technology for stealth and secrecy missions: As far as the actual crew goes, every one of them is ready and trained for the mission. This is going to be the primary crew of the ship. They've already had all their training. Many of the more senior staff all have practical experience and knowledge from years of service with the fleet. For the newest, fastest, most expensive, and most technologically sophisticated ship in the galaxy, they aren't cherries flying about for the maidan voyage. Even the commanding officer and executive officer are two of the most experienced and respected officers in the Fleet. They're the best there is to have. There's no one else better suited to hunting down Saren. 

 

As for the skill, to be as basic as possible, Kaiser put it succinctly. Suffice to say, if they're lying about things that are or aren't on their record, that's a security risk.

 

I'll add a bit more; If they have the skill, it will be on their record. If it's not on their record, then they're lying about it. If they're lying about it, something's up. If something's up with one of my Soldiers, that's cause for investigation on my part. As for why they would lie, I really can't give you a basic, cover-all answer. I've never had it happen, nor have I ever known a case where it happened for a complicated skill that needs to be learned from a special school. If they have experience prior to it, they would put it down on a listing of additional qualifications. For example, if they learned how to climb as a civilian, they would put it down as a skill with no formal qualification, and when I interview them, I'd ask them about it. However, those aren't the skills I'm referring too. I'm referring to more specific, technical oriented skills that would specifically need to be learned in a special training environment.

 

I guess this is just a case of segregating the story from reality.

 

I mean, by this logic, every ME1 squad member other than Kaidan should have been kicked to the curb as either unqualified or a security risk.



#361
CrutchCricket

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It doesn't help that the divide between crew for the Normandy (which would be Fleet, or Navy or whatever) and ground squads (Marines) is blurry in the case of exactly two people (Kaidan and Shepard) and non-existent anywhere else.

 

I have no doubt that the people operating the ship know what they're doing. Stealthing to Eden Prime is functionally no different than stealthing to Noveria or Ilos. But the ground squads, if it even makes sense to reference them as such, couldn't possibly have been chosen with something like tracking a rogue Spectre in mind, given what the original mission was.

 

And as pointed out the aliens would always be an unknown quantity, not in terms of skills necessarily but in terms of psychology and discipline. A good CO should always know or be able to predict what his men are thinking right? Well how do you get into the mind of an alien, nevermind how anthropomorphic ME's aliens are. Also inb4 asari.


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#362
DeinonSlayer

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It doesn't help that the divide between crew for the Normandy (which would be Fleet, or Navy or whatever) and ground squads (Marines) is blurry in the case of exactly two people (Kaidan and Shepard) and non-existent anywhere else.
 
I have no doubt that the people operating the ship know what they're doing. Stealthing to Eden Prime is functionally no different than stealthing to Noveria or Ilos. But the ground squads, if it even makes sense to reference them as such, couldn't possibly have been chosen with something like tracking a rogue Spectre in mind, given what the original mission was.
 
And as pointed out the aliens would always be an unknown quantity, not in terms of skills necessarily but in terms of psychology and discipline. A good CO should always know or be able to predict what his men are thinking right? Well how do you get into the mind of an alien, nevermind how anthropomorphic ME's aliens are. Also inb4 asari.

The Qunari seem more philosophically alien than any species in the Mass Effect universe, with the exceptions of the Rachni and the (ME2) Geth.

For some of the alien squadmates, there's less cause for suspicion. Massively made note of Garrus' qualifications and credentials. Tali could have slipped back to her fleet with the data on the Eden Prime attack, but chose instead to go halfway across the galaxy, dodging assassins every step of the way, to report it to those who could do something about it - shows a lot of integrity. Wrex and Liara, though, are admittedly unknown quantities.