361 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

His backstory. He flipped out and killed his training officer because he was mean to his "wuv"

 

Given that he wasn't punished for that, I say Kaidan's actions were deemed entirely justified.

[geth47]

Traynor is the XO; she even stayed behind on the ship until cloneshep fired her.

She said it was because she was familiar with the recent retrofits prior to escaping Earth. It had nothing to do with rank nor position.

[eyezonlyii]

She said it was because she was familiar with the recent retrofits prior to escaping Earth. It had nothing to do with rank nor position.

Which doesn't make sense since Cortez helped with the retrofits too. So why could he chill in the apartment, but Traynor get left behind?

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't think I would want anyone who was part of the first "retrofit" to be a part of the second, because those guys did not have their priorities straight.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

True! I forgot Javik.

 

My heirarchy then goes like this:

 

Shepard

Kaidan/Garrus

Kaidan/Garrus

Javik (after the coup)/Ash

James

Liara

Cortez

Joker

Adams/Tali (Tali's more of a diplomat)

Move Liara ahead of James. She would probably study and memorize battle tactics for frigate sized vessels, and wouldn't try anything reckless like ramming a reaper. She would probably memorize the capabilities of the Normandy if she hasn't already done so. There is a chance that if the war went south that Liara, her offspring, and EDI could be the only ones alive on the ship after a few decades. James on the other hand....

[CrutchCricket]

To be fair, he was only 17 AND Vyrnus did pull a knife on him...so self defense I'd say.

 

Irrelevant. A breach of discipline I hardly think would be tolerated in most militaries. Certainly not something I'd ever be comfortable leaving at my back.

[KaiserShep]

I'd move Cortez above Liara. He tells you he was being groomed for a command post, but then was shunted into leading a flight deck.

 

To be fair, much of the Normandy's crew is positioned haphazardly on account of almost none of them actually being assigned to it for active duty, so James ends up doing what Ashley was doing in ME1, and Jacob in ME2.

 

Move Liara ahead of James. She would probably study and memorize battle tactics for frigate sized vessels, and wouldn't try anything reckless like ramming a reaper. She would probably memorize the capabilities of the Normandy if she hasn't already done so. There is a chance that if the war went south that Liara, her offspring, and EDI could be the only ones alive on the ship after a few decades. James on the other hand....

 

While the crew is still alive, I wouldn't place Liara above any of the actual military personnel aboard the ship. As for memorizing the capabilities of the Normandy, I doubt knowing what it's capable of really helps without some real-world experience in commanding or operating a military vessel. The shuttle collision on Mars can't constantly be used against James to somehow paint him as lacking merit as military officer material. He was even approached to join the N7 program. Heck, I'd sooner put Chakwas in charge of the ship before Liara, because she has served aboard Alliance ships for many years.

 

As for outliving the crew should the war go south, chain of command becomes a bit of a thing of the past, since that basically means the Alliance is dead, civilization has ended, and any groups clumped together is now just a band of survivors.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Irrelevant. A breach of discipline I hardly think would be tolerated in most militaries. Certainly not something I'd ever be comfortable leaving at my back.

 

Given the scenario, it sounds like the Alliance felt Kaidan's actions were justified as the only action they apparently took was dispanding that questionable operation. As far as I can recall there is no other such instance of Kaidan shirking the rules and given his rank and position he seems like an exemplary officer. And that his actions with the Turian are entirely sympathetic given that he was young, placed in a half-hazard and stressful training situation against his will, and faced with a first time alien encounter threatening a pier.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

What would make Ashley a good XO? I can't think of much. She doesn't command respect from the alien crew like Garrus or Kaidan?(Always left him on Virmire) could. Her track record as a officer is pretty sub-par, as she got taken out by seeker swarms while even Vega managed to repel them. Not exactly diplomatic, which is basically what the Normandy's job is. She may be a decent soldier, but there is nothing to show that she is competent as a commanding officer, or is necessarily willing to take orders from a person of a higher pay-grade. 

[CrutchCricket]

Given the scenario, it sounds like the Alliance felt Kaidan's actions were justified as the only action they apparently took was dispanding that questionable operation. As far as I can recall there is no other such instance of Kaidan shirking the rules and given his rank and position he seems like an exemplary officer. And that his actions with the Turian are entirely sympathetic given that he was young, placed in a half-hazard and stressful training situation against his will, and faced with a first time alien encounter threatening a pier.

 

Hardly. I think the incident was merely downplayed to avoid a diplomatic incident with the turians. They probably reported the whole thing as an accident. If they had court-martialed Kaidan the news would've made it back to the Hierarchy and it could complicate things further down the road (as the turians sure as hell wouldn't be understanding of such a breach).

 

The circumstances do not excuse him. He struck and killed a training officer while said officer was disciplining another trainee, and worse, he was not in control. That the trainer was out of line is another thing. That could've been dealt with through proper channels, though it was still not his grievance to make.

 

In one of Anderson's logs in the apartment in Citadel he describes his own experiences with turian training officers. Apparently they're really hardcore. Does that enable any trainee to just "snap" and take it out on his superiors? The whole program would go to hell if that were the case.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Given the scenario, it sounds like the Alliance felt Kaidan's actions were justified as the only action they apparently took was dispanding that questionable operation. As far as I can recall there is no other such instance of Kaidan shirking the rules and given his rank and position he seems like an exemplary officer. And that his actions with the Turian are entirely sympathetic given that he was young, placed in a half-hazard and stressful training situation against his will, and faced with a first time alien encounter threatening a pier.

This is the military, not grade school. 

 

Disobeying orders, killing someone, killing a superior officer, and failing in a stressful situation will never, ever win you brownie points. It'll get you at the very least dishonorably discharged, and probably court-martialed. Whether or not he deserved it, he shoulda been kicked out in one way or another. 

[Invisible Man]

Hardly. I think the incident was merely downplayed to avoid a diplomatic incident with the turians. They probably reported the whole thing as an accident. If they had court-martialed Kaidan the news would've made it back to the Hierarchy and it could complicate things further down the road (as the turians sure as hell wouldn't be understanding of such a breach).

I thought the instructor was an ex-military officer working as a merc. if that's the case I can't see the turian military throwing a hissy fit, and a training officer pulling a combat knife on a recruit, I can't see that being tolerated either.

[KaiserShep]

It was basically a proving ground for biotic lab rats. Sh*t happens.

[CrutchCricket]

I thought the instructor was an ex-military officer working as a merc. if that's the case I can't see the turian military throwing a hissy fit, and a training officer pulling a combat knife on a recruit, I can't see that being tolerated either.

 

Would still set a bad precedent. "Humans are volatile weaklings who can't take harder training".

[KaiserShep]

And they opted to receive biotics training from a less favorable choice of species. On the bright side, it at least demonstrates that Kaidan's biotics pack a [lethal] kick.

[DeinonSlayer]

Would still set a bad precedent. "Humans are volatile weaklings who can't take harder training".

Yep. Gotta consider the standards they're operating with. I heard that in Turkey, so long as an officer executes no more than one soldier per year below the rank of Sergeant, he doesn't have to file paperwork about it. May be bullshit, may not, but there are modern countries with standards the West would consider inhumane to say the least.


^ You WILL stand at attention!

Think of the George Patton slapping incident. Most of the participants in that particular war wouldn't have looked twice. I'm embarrassed we did.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Hardly. I think the incident was merely downplayed to avoid a diplomatic incident with the turians. They probably reported the whole thing as an accident. If they had court-martialed Kaidan the news would've made it back to the Hierarchy and it could complicate things further down the road (as the turians sure as hell wouldn't be understanding of such a breach).

 

The circumstances do not excuse him. He struck and killed a training officer while said officer was disciplining another trainee, and worse, he was not in control. That the trainer was out of line is another thing. That could've been dealt with through proper channels, though it was still not his grievance to make.

 

In one of Anderson's logs in the apartment in Citadel he describes his own experiences with turian training officers. Apparently they're really hardcore. Does that enable any trainee to just "snap" and take it out on his superiors? The whole program would go to hell if that were the case.

 

Vyrnnus was a mercenery and wasn't affiliated with the Turian hierarchy, so I doubt there was a diplomatic reason for covering the thing up (if such a thing was even possible). Kaidan does mention that the Alliance specifically went outside of the Council which is why there were no Asari present.

 

As for the circumstances there is a difference between "hardcore" discipline and assault, he did break Rahna's arm and attacked Kaidan. Corners were cut during that training program, kids died -- Vyrnnus was a loose cannon. Kaidan's actions were much more a kin to self defense that snapping. And given that it's heavily implied the training officials watched Vyrnnus died, it's likely the Alliance people agreed with Kaidan's actions.

[eyezonlyii]

Let's not forget that while the Alliance was in charge, it *wasn't* a military operation. They were just trying to figure out what the hell biotics were. The goal was to use them eventually in a military capacity, but at that point in time they were all baby xmen.

[KaiserShep]

Let's not forget that while the Alliance was in charge, it *wasn't* a military operation. They were just trying to figure out what the hell biotics were. The goal was to use them eventually in a military capacity, but at that point in time they were all baby xmen.

 

That's how I see it. An instructor getting killed is pretty much an occupational hazard. It seems silly to penalize Kaidan the same way you would a normal person that killed someone with a knife or some martial arts move. Heh, if anything, Kaidan probably did everyone a favor killing Vyrnnus anyway.

[von uber]

He's still exceptionally boring though.

[wright1978]

My Shep registers his disdain for the Alliance in me3 by making Boo the Space Hamster, his XO.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Which consisted of several points I still contend. And if I remember correctly your non-biased analysis was not so much that she was terrible but that she simply lacked any outstanding features.

 

Frankly, I'd still rather have her mundane, unremarkable but loyal service over Kaidan's uncontrolled emotional insubordination.

 

Ask iakus; I wrote a detailed tactical analysis of Ashley's military bearing and field operation. It was very critical. Contend what you want, I maintain my position on her and yes, I hold your contentions to be erroneous or irrelevant based on my own experience and practical knowledge.

 

Uncontrolled emotional insubordination? Honestly, that sounds like a lot of bull. Kaidan does have a tendency to act as a 'conscious' so to speak, but Ashley speaks on her prejudices and dogma. She comes across as much more judgmental than Kaidan. That said, Kaidan's got experience and skills that make him outstanding. Meanwhile, Ashley is not only unremarkable among Shepard's crew, she's unremarkable as a Marine. Honestly, Jenkins would probably have been a better team member to have. He has fleet and field experience.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I'm sorry, but there are a lot of incorrect and outright 'wrong' opinions on military leadership here. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

His backstory. He flipped out and killed his training officer because he was mean to his "wuv"

 

I explained this, and I explained how it is justifiable on his part to orchestrate self-defense on an unofficial overseer who not only physically attacked a fellow student (causing serious, intentional physical harm), but pulling a blade on Kaidan as well. Kaidan was a teenager in a situation that would be trying even to an adult undergoing military training. The Turian was exceedingly brutal, even in comparison to Turian military training, and he legitimately hated his students. It goes beyond the Drill Sergeant's ideal of wanting to be necessarily cruel or brutal to make their recruits succeed. Most DS's sincerely want to see their recruits to succeed and become a strong, capable member of whatever branch they are in. But the Turian instructor outright wanted his students to fail. Another thing I think you're forgetting that Kaidan was an adolescent during this entire time. You're essentially putting an unstable and emotional teenager into a situation that is more brutal and deadly than Special Forces training. 

 

Honestly, as a guy who considered becoming a Drill Sergeant and even was in the 2nd phase candidacy process, I'll tell you that the Turian was not only exceedingly going above and beyond the threshold for acceptable behavior as a training instructor, but also being a direct and intentional threat to his students; students who had some basic alliance training at that point, students trained to identify a hostile from a friendly. He reacted how he was trained to react.

 

Meanwhile Ashley is showing borderline insubordination and exceeds her objectives by being a fully trained, professional Marine NCO and (without orders, and even against orders in some cases) pulling a gun on Wrex (bring her to Fist with him), and on Virmire. She's expressing outright discomfort against orders with the aliens on the ship. She's the one getting drunk on board the ship, in public, and in uniform. She may not be on duty, but she's still acting unprofessional by virtue of even drinking in an area other than a 1) designated area of the post (and certainly not in uniform), and 2) drinking in a professional environment where subordinates, peers, and superiors can see her indulge. That's unacceptable. 

 

You may say that I am biased against Ashley, and possibly unfairly. Given my own knowledge of the military and the can's and can'ts of how it works, I'm going to say for sure that you're biased against Kaidan, and certainly very unjustly.

[KaiserShep]

You're essentially putting an unstable and emotional teenager into a situation that is more brutal and deadly than Special Forces training.

 

And this is not even accounting for the innate ability to manipulate dark energy with one's mind. If you're going to be an instructor for what are essentially "magical" people, and abuse them, you're pretty much asking to get seriously injured or killed.