361 réponses à ce sujet

[Star fury]

Miranda must have been an XO or a secretary or just take any position on the Normandy with her assets.

[Star fury]

You may say that I am biased against Ashley, and possibly unfairly. Given my own knowledge of the military and the can's and can'ts of how it works, I'm going to say for sure that you're biased against Kaidan, and certainly very unjustly.

Yeah, you're incredibly biased against Ashley, and absolutely unfairly. You even value Jenkins higher than Ashley ffs, who is just a mass culture reference by devs(Leroy Jenkins).

[KaiserShep]

You will not sully the good name of Jenkins. He died a hero, but was reincarnated as that kid wanna be merc on Omega in ME2.

[eyezonlyii]

I really don't understand why Jenkins died. IThe geth ripped through his shields? You mean like they do ten seconds later to Kaidan and Shepard? It would have made more sense in my opinion if we picked up Kaidan on Eden Prime. Then one could picture that he survives due to his training in BAaT or something (plus it would take away one of our damsels in distress).

[KaiserShep]

The geth occasionally equip their drones with plot-piercing alloy. They're very rare. Kai Leng's sword was coated in the stuff.

[Iakus]

I explained this, and I explained how it is justifiable on his part to orchestrate self-defense on an unofficial overseer who not only physically attacked a fellow student (causing serious, intentional physical harm), but pulling a blade on Kaidan as well. Kaidan was a teenager in a situation that would be trying even to an adult undergoing military training. The Turian was exceedingly brutal, even in comparison to Turian military training, and he legitimately hated his students. It goes beyond the Drill Sergeant's ideal of wanting to be necessarily cruel or brutal to make their recruits succeed. Most DS's sincerely want to see their recruits to succeed and become a strong, capable member of whatever branch they are in. But the Turian instructor outright wanted his students to fail. Another thing I think you're forgetting that Kaidan was an adolescent during this entire time. You're essentially putting an unstable and emotional teenager into a situation that is more brutal and deadly than Special Forces training. 

 

Honestly, as a guy who considered becoming a Drill Sergeant and even was in the 2nd phase candidacy process, I'll tell you that the Turian was not only exceedingly going above and beyond the threshold for acceptable behavior as a training instructor, but also being a direct and intentional threat to his students; students who had some basic alliance training at that point, students trained to identify a hostile from a friendly. He reacted how he was trained to react.

 

 

Just tossing an idea out there, but with him being turian, who's to say his training style isn't typical of their species?

 

 

Meanwhile Ashley is showing borderline insubordination and exceeds her objectives by being a fully trained, professional Marine NCO and (without orders, and even against orders in some cases) pulling a gun on Wrex (bring her to Fist with him), and on Virmire. She's expressing outright discomfort against orders with the aliens on the ship. She's the one getting drunk on board the ship, in public, and in uniform. She may not be on duty, but she's still acting unprofessional by virtue of even drinking in an area other than a 1) designated area of the post (and certainly not in uniform), and 2) drinking in a professional environment where subordinates, peers, and superiors can see her indulge. That's unacceptable.

 

You may say that I am biased against Ashley, and possibly unfairly. Given my own knowledge of the military and the can's and can'ts of how it works, I'm going to say for sure that you're biased against Kaidan, and certainly very unjustly.

 

 

1) Given Wrex disobeyed my orders first, I think she's justified in keeping him covered, in case he decides killing one human isn't enough.

 

2) I tell Ash to keep an eye on Wrex while talking to him anyway.  It's only prudent when dealing with a possibly unstable krogan.  If Shepard can't talk Wrex down, then it's his own fault.

 

3) She asks permission before voicing her discomfort with Wrex and Garrus.  And if you tell her things are fine, she accepts it.  I'm not going to slam someone for havin an opinion, as long as it doesn't affect her performance.  And it doesn't

 

4)  You going to chew out Vega and Cortez too?  They hit the booze pretty hard too.

 

So yeah, I think you're a wee bit unfair to Ash.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Yeah, you're incredibly biased against Ashley, and absolutely unfairly. You even value Jenkins higher than Ashley ffs, who is just a mass culture reference by devs(Leroy Jenkins).

 

Who would you rather have for an infantry combatant? A junior NCO like Jenkins who's relatively inexperienced, but still assigned to the Fleet and assigned to the most advanced ship in the fleet means that he has to know his stuff. 

 

Meanwhile, Ashley, for better or worse, has no experience. She's never had a station that wasn't a shore assignment or colonial defense. She has nothing that Jenkins doesn't have, and she has no special skills that someone like Jenkins would have to have to be assigned to the most advanced ship in the galaxy.

 

No, I really don't like Ashley as a character. But I can give you some very good reasons for why she's not an exceptional or standout choice. Can you make an argument for her that would justify her presence to me? I believe fully that you can't. Prove me wrong.

[KaiserShep]

Just tossing an idea out there, but with him being turian, who's to say his training style isn't typical of their species?

 

I suppose this would also be the fault of the humans for bothering to go with a turian to train young people so that they could get around going through the Council to experiment with biotics properly, but the "training style" seems a bit irrelevant to me. Vyrnnus should be just as aware of the differences between his species and theirs, and I guess he learned the hard way.

[Iakus]

Who would you rather have for an infantry combatant? A junior NCO like Jenkins who's relatively inexperienced, but still assigned to the Fleet and assigned to the most advanced ship in the fleet means that he has to know his stuff. 

 

Meanwhile, Ashley, for better or worse, has no experience. She's never had a station that wasn't a shore assignment or colonial defense. She has nothing that Jenkins doesn't have, and she has no special skills that someone like Jenkins would have to have to be assigned to the most advanced ship in the galaxy.

 

No, I really don't like Ashley as a character. But I can give you some very good reasons for why she's not an exceptional or standout choice. Can you make an argument for her that would justify her presence to me? I believe fully that you can't. Prove me wrong.

 

Jenkins was caught out in the open and died to the first drones to come along.

 

Ash survived for hours (at least) against a geth invasion that wiped out her entire unit.

 

As far as I'm concerned, presence justified

[KaiserShep]

The worst part is that on subsequent playthroughs, if you have auto-leveling for the squad, Leroy Jenkins has such great stats.

[DeinonSlayer]

The worst part is that on subsequent playthroughs, if you have auto-leveling for the squad, Leroy Jenkins has such great stats.

I guess he got his armor at the same place Conrad did.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Jenkins was caught out in the open and died to the first drones to come along.

 

Ash survived for hours (at least) against a geth invasion that wiped out her entire unit.

 

As far as I'm concerned, presence justified

 

It's pretty easy to find a place to hide. Not that I'm knocking it, but it's a lot different than bounding on Shepard's order and getting caught while moving to his position. He didn't die due to lack of skill or stupidity. He was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Geth happened to appear right as Shepard was initiating movement to contact.

 

I'd like to not sound completely arrogant, but honestly, on tactical matters on the battlefield, I feel I'm more qualified than anyone else here to talk about it, and I do feel highly about my opinion in this regard. So no offense, but I don't believe you hold an informed view on this manner.

 

Ashley meanwhile was running with her back to the Geth. She wasn't even doing any kind of defensive movement or withdrawal. She was blindly running, not doing anything to make hasty ambush or a hasty retreat. She wasn't doing anything that I would call impressive or even professional. 

[Star fury]

Who would you rather have for an infantry combatant? A junior NCO like Jenkins who's relatively inexperienced, but still assigned to the Fleet and assigned to the most advanced ship in the fleet means that he has to know his stuff. 

 

Meanwhile, Ashley, for better or worse, has no experience. She's never had a station that wasn't a shore assignment or colonial defense. She has nothing that Jenkins doesn't have, and she has no special skills that someone like Jenkins would have to have to be assigned to the most advanced ship in the galaxy.

 

No, I really don't like Ashley as a character. But I can give you some very good reasons for why she's not an exceptional or standout choice. Can you make an argument for her that would justify her presence to me? I believe fully that you can't. Prove me wrong.

Gladly. First of all, Jenkins is literally a developer joke, a reference to Leroy Jenkins. Just how you value Jenkins above Ashley shows your bias.

 

Second, Ashley Williams is a gunnery chief which is a NCO rank and NCOs are the backbone of the US army and other fiction US-influenced armies. She's an experienced soldier who also survived when her whole platoon was destroyed. Ashley is a marine who had only excellent reviews but she was denied well-deserved promotions and shipboard positions only because of stigma connected with her grandfather who surrendered in the First contact war. She knows a prejudice against Williams family and she had to work twice as much to get the same recognition. 

 

Considering the fact that you absolutely adore Miranda and think she would make an excellent XO with her catsuit and high heels... Does US navy have XOs in catsuit and high heels? Honest question. 

P.S. Why I always must be Ashley's advocate?

[Iakus]

 

P.S. Why I always must be Ashley's advocate?

 

I often ask myself the same thing.

 

Seems like every thread that compares characters invariably turns into a "Bash Ash" thread.

[Iakus]

It's pretty easy to find a place to hide. Not that I'm knocking it, but it's a lot different than bounding on Shepard's order and getting caught while moving to his position. He didn't die due to lack of skill or stupidity. He was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Geth happened to appear right as Shepard was initiating movement to contact.

 

I'd like to not sound completely arrogant, but honestly, on tactical matters on the battlefield, I feel I'm more qualified than anyone else here to talk about it, and I do feel highly about my opinion in this regard. So no offense, but I don't believe you hold an informed view on this manner.

 

Ashley meanwhile was running with her back to the Geth. She wasn't even doing any kind of defensive movement or withdrawal. She was blindly running, not doing anything to make hasty ambush or a hasty retreat. She wasn't doing anything that I would call impressive or even professional. 

 

He died because he was Richard "Leeeeeroy!" Jenkins.

 

As for Ash, I thought professionalism and doing the right thing doesn't matter as much as getting the desired results?

 

Edit:  I have to wonder, why does Miranda's Rule of Sexy catsuit get a pass when Ash's Rule of Cool chase scene gets ripped apart?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Gladly. First of all, Jenkins is literally a developer joke, a reference to Leroy Jenkins. Just how you value Jenkins above Ashley shows your bias.

 

Second, Ashley Williams is a gunnery chief which is a NCO rank and NCOs are the backbone of the US army and other fiction US-influenced armies. She's an experienced soldier who also survived when her whole platoon was destroyed. Ashley is a marine who had only excellent reviews but she was denied well-deserved promotions and shipboard positions only because of stigma connected with her grandfather who surrendered in the First contact war. She knows a prejudice against Williams family and she had to work twice as much to get the same recognition. 

 

Considering the fact that you absolutely adore Miranda and think she would make an excellent XO with her catsuit and high heels... Does US navy has XOs in catsuit and high heels? Honest question. 

P.S. Why I always must be Ashley's advocate?

 

This exists on meta-scale. In game, I take Jenkins and other characters seriously. I'm not going to dismiss him because he was developed as a joke on a meta-scale. The game treats him seriously, not whimsically, and he's capable enough from what little we see of him. His death was not his own fault, nor was it Shepard's fault. He died doing what he was supposed to be doing. Caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

Next, as an Officer in the United States Army myself, and as a former NCO myself prior to commissioning, I can assure you that despite her willingness to excel and make up for her prejudice (to which I do commend her), I would have no choice but to dismiss her due to what her blacklisting has caused. Sure, her career was mishandled by her commanders and her leadership. However, this does not mean she is automatically deserving of her position or equate to skills required for the mission. Her blacklisting has prevented her from gaining skills and access to training that would be expected (and unofficially required for her position). And really, I'd expect her level of commitment from any NCO at her rank. It's not that she shows special devotion to her duty. That's a granted from anyone in that position. Really it is. And, unlike her peers, she's not going to have the practical field experience or knowledge from mobilizations or deployments. All she has is excellent reviews from garrison duties that don't equate or equal to theater postings. Deserving or not, she's not suited for positions that junior Marines like Jenkins have experience or training for. I've explained this to Crutch in the past, and I've explained it to iakus in the past. She's an unknown element. That's the last thing you want. You want someone who has the experience, who has the skill, who has the knowledge, and the capability to perform on a Special Operations mission that has galactic security in the balance. She doesn't have that. 

 

Yes, high heels are worn by female officers in all branches as part of their dress uniform. 'Catsuits' and skintight suits are also worn in some training environments as well. And regardless, you're trying to draw a conclusion to two separate ideals. Yes, I can see how Miranda's outfit might seem 'inappropriate'. That said, she still has the experience, the skill, the training, and the knowledge to perform such missions as Shepard. Ashley, no matter how well dressed or under-dressed she is, doesn't have the experience, the skill, or the knowledge to perform such missions.

[eyezonlyii]

I personally have no problem with Ashley. In fact she in ME is one of my favorite characters. Unfortunately for her, I value Kaidan's skill set more which is why she never has survived Virmire for me. She actually reminds me of my NCO mother in some ways. A strong woman who isn't ashamed of her faith who had to work twice has hard for the same credit.

[Star fury]

Who would you rather have for an infantry combatant? A junior NCO like Jenkins who's relatively inexperienced, but still assigned to the Fleet and assigned to the most advanced ship in the fleet means that he has to know his stuff. 

Can you prove it? What exactly are Jenkins' credentials except assumption that "he has to know" something? For all we know he can be Anderson's bastard kid!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

He died because he was Richard "Leeeeeroy!" Jenkins.

 

As for Ash, I thought professionalism and doing the right thing doesn't matter as much as getting the desired results?

 

Edit:  I have to wonder, why does Miranda's Rule of Sexy catsuit get a pass when Ash's Rule of Cool chase scene gets ripped apart?

 

That's just it, she doesn't get results. Show me an outstanding point where her actions get the desired results beyond arming a nuke? She endangered the mission on Eden Prime. I let her know it. I let her know how incompetent I she was. Not just from Shepard's position, but from my own position. Honestly, if the game allowed me, for what her actions caused, I'd have pulled some stripes and got her somewhere where she can do the most good with her skill-set. That would probably be a training facility on Earth, maybe Titan. From what the game tells us, she's a decent training NCO. I'd put her in a training position to do the most good there.

[geth47]

Has anyone else noticed, that a big number of Ash detractors/hates are neo-atheists? Sometimes I wonder if it´s not just a reflexion of their bias against God, any kind os supernatural faith or organized religion.

[eyezonlyii]

That's just it, she doesn't get results. Show me an outstanding point where her actions get the desired results beyond arming a nuke? She endangered the mission on Eden Prime. I let her know it. I let her know how incompetent I she was. Not just from Shepard's position, but from my own position. Honestly, if the game allowed me, for what her actions caused, I'd have pulled some stripes and got her somewhere where she can do the most good with her skill-set. That would probably be a training facility on Earth, maybe Titan. From what the game tells us, she's a decent training NCO. I'd put her in a training position to do the most good there.

To be fair though, her endangering the mission is you can playing as MShep. Kaidan does it in FemShep play through a so I would discount that from both records. It was supposed to be the jumping off point of a possible relationship (the PC saving their lives) and to be honest I would have had that been where Jenkins died. At least then your crew member doesn't come off as highly incompetent.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Can you prove it? What exactly are Jenkins' credentials except assumption that "he has to know" something? For all we know he can be Anderson's bastard kid!

 

I can't prove it. But I can infer that Jenkins has to have had some excellent skill or capability to end up assigned to the newest, most advanced ship in the alliance and the galaxy. Would you take a new private and put him on the detail for a ship that is going to be performing sensitive and critical missions of the highest importance? 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Has anyone else noticed, that a big number of Ash detractors/hates are neo-atheists? Sometimes I wonder if it´s not just a reflexion of their bias against God, any kind os supernatural faith or organized religion.

 

I'm an atheist, but it has nothing to do with my dislike of Ashley. I disapprove, but her being religious is extraneous and irrelevant to why I think she's not up to the task.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

To be fair though, her endangering the mission is you can playing as MShep. Kaidan does it in FemShep play through a so I would discount that from both records. It was supposed to be the jumping off point of a possible relationship (the PC saving their lives) and to be honest I would have had that been where Jenkins died. At least then your crew member doesn't come off as highly incompetent.

 

Fair enough. I'm willing to observe the subjectivity here. The whole purpose of that sequence is to start a quasi-rescue romance.

[Vigilant111]

It's pretty easy to find a place to hide. Not that I'm knocking it, but it's a lot different than bounding on Shepard's order and getting caught while moving to his position. He didn't die due to lack of skill or stupidity. He was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Geth happened to appear right as Shepard was initiating movement to contact.

 

I'd like to not sound completely arrogant, but honestly, on tactical matters on the battlefield, I feel I'm more qualified than anyone else here to talk about it, and I do feel highly about my opinion in this regard. So no offense, but I don't believe you hold an informed view on this manner.

 

Ashley meanwhile was running with her back to the Geth. She wasn't even doing any kind of defensive movement or withdrawal. She was blindly running, not doing anything to make hasty ambush or a hasty retreat. She wasn't doing anything that I would call impressive or even professional. 

 

I think you could also add that Shepard is the reason why Ashley survived...I think Ashley herself admitted that, part modest but mostly the truth