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[Star fury]

 

Next, as an Officer in the United States Army myself, and as a former NCO myself prior to commissioning, I can assure you that despite her willingness to excel and make up for her prejudice (to which I do commend her), I would have no choice but to dismiss her due to what her blacklisting has caused. Sure, her career was mishandled by her commanders and her leadership. However, this does not mean she is automatically deserving of her position or equate to skills required for the mission. Her blacklisting has prevented her from gaining skills and access to training that would be expected (and unofficially required for her position). And really, I'd expect her level of commitment from any NCO at her rank. It's not that she shows special devotion to her duty. That's a granted from anyone in that position. Really it is. And, unlike her peers, she's not going to have the practical field experience or knowledge from mobilizations or deployments. All she has is excellent reviews from garrison duties that don't equate or equal to theater postings. Deserving or not, she's not suited for positions that junior Marines like Jenkins have experience or training for. I've explained this to Crutch in the past, and I've explained it to iakus in the past. She's an unknown element. That's the last thing you want. You want someone who has the experience, who has the skill, who has the knowledge, and the capability to perform on a Special Operations mission that has galactic security in the balance. She doesn't have that. 

Yeah, you always like to portray yourself as a real-life soldier but your defense of Miranda's appearance invariably disqualifies you.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

That's just it, she doesn't get results. Show me an outstanding point where her actions get the desired results beyond arming a nuke? She endangered the mission on Eden Prime. I let her know it. I let her know how incompetent I she was. Not just from Shepard's position, but from my own position. Honestly, if the game allowed me, for what her actions caused, I'd have pulled some stripes and got her somewhere where she can do the most good with her skill-set. That would probably be a training facility on Earth, maybe Titan. From what the game tells us, she's a decent training NCO. I'd put her in a training position to do the most good there.

And I'd put Miranda in a strip club. Her skill-set would do the most good there. 

No Miranda supporter can criticize Ashley. Miranda was a bad enough XO that even in the middle of a mission, multiple squadmates can talk about how they don't want her to be in command. If Jack survives the space battle, she does, and if she doesn't, Garrus does. 

[Vigilant111]

This exists on meta-scale. In game, I take Jenkins and other characters seriously. I'm not going to dismiss him because he was developed as a joke on a meta-scale. The game treats him seriously, not whimsically, and he's capable enough from what little we see of him. His death was not his own fault, nor was it Shepard's fault. He died doing what he was supposed to be doing. Caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

I feel that Jenkin's death is written in such a way so to produce a traumatic effect on the player, as he is portrayed as a promising soldier, a little naive, but nonetheless destined to do great things in the future. The abrupt end to his character laments on great waste of talent, and highlights the brutalities of the geth and the reapers

[CrutchCricket]

Uncontrolled emotional insubordination? Honestly, that sounds like a lot of bull. Kaidan does have a tendency to act as a 'conscious' so to speak, but Ashley speaks on her prejudices and dogma. She comes across as much more judgmental than Kaidan. That said, Kaidan's got experience and skills that make him outstanding. Meanwhile, Ashley is not only unremarkable among Shepard's crew, she's unremarkable as a Marine. Honestly, Jenkins would probably have been a better team member to have. He has fleet and field experience.

 
Actions speak louder than words. I'll take Ashley mouthing off over Kaidan snapping any day. Because at the end of the day, Ashley still has enough discipline to shut it if her CO tells her to. Can't really tell an emotional outburst to shut it, particularly if lethal damage has already been done.
 
My contentions mostly dealt with the political bullshit of keeping Ashley down because of her grandfather, something you admitted was unfair even if you didn't give a damn. I acknowledge and respect your RL experience and don't contend your analysis based on those direct facts. But I choose to look at it a different way- someone that hungry to prove themselves will prove themselves.
 
And I'm sorry, what experience does Jenkins have again? I have none and even to me he's green as ****. If Shepard is willing to step into a hostile situation with Jenkins at his back, he'll have no problem doing so with Williams.
 

You're essentially putting an unstable and emotional teenager into a situation that is more brutal and deadly than Special Forces training.

 

And you expect him to be a normal functioning adult after that trauma? The point is he snapped. I'll admit it was a shitty situation a kid should never be in, but it happened and it left its damage. And I do not want that at my back.
 

You may say that I am biased against Ashley, and possibly unfairly. Given my own knowledge of the military and the can's and can'ts of how it works, I'm going to say for sure that you're biased against Kaidan, and certainly very unjustly.

 
Yep. At the end of the day I, the player found Kaidan boring and Ashley interesting, something I admit the romance played a part in. Since I had to choose one I chose Ashley. And since most of my time in the series was spent in the latter parts, Kaidan has become a non-character for me. But I stand by my judgement regarding Kaidan's potential psychological scarring as a matter of discussion and as what my Shepard would consider.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

And I'd put Miranda in a strip club. Her skill-set would do the most good there. 

No Miranda supporter can criticize Ashley. Miranda was a bad enough XO that even in the middle of a mission, multiple squadmates can talk about how they don't want her to be in command. If Jack survives the space battle, she does, and if she doesn't, Garrus does. 

 

I think this is just baseless irritation at my opinion for the top. 

 

And yes, I will fully criticize Ashley. See, all the things that the squadmates say about Miranda is mostly residual mistrust of her being affiliated with Cerberus. I never once see anything criticizing her about her actual performance. Can you show me or tell me where you saw anything that did from the squadmates?

[KaiserShep]

I imagine that Jenkins would have been an extremely annoying team member. The voice alone screams cannon fodder.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Yeah, you always like to portray yourself as a real-life soldier but your defense of Miranda's appearance invariably disqualifies you.

 

So me defending Miranda's appearance disqualifies me as a Soldier? I'm wondering how you came to that conclusion. I really am. I've even stated the limitations for how my support will go for her appearance. And you're here, criticizing me (and not my argument) based on a completely separate argument about another topic. I'm disregarding it because its not logical.

[CrutchCricket]

And I'd put Miranda in a strip club. Her skill-set would do the most good there. 

No Miranda supporter can criticize Ashley. Miranda was a bad enough XO that even in the middle of a mission, multiple squadmates can talk about how they don't want her to be in command. If Jack survives the space battle, she does, and if she doesn't, Garrus does. 

 

Personal dislike and issues does not make for accurate analysis of leadership skills. Jack is biased as **** (and I wouldn't trust her judgement on anything military anyway).

 

Garrus likely is too, though as a turian I can see his appraisal being more professional. He's never seen Miranda lead a squad.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I think this is just baseless irritation at my opinion for the top. 

 

And yes, I will fully criticize Ashley. See, all the things that the squadmates say about Miranda is mostly residual mistrust of her being affiliated with Cerberus. I never once see anything criticizing her about her actual performance. Can you show me or tell me where you saw anything that did from the squadmates?

I can't find a video, but Garrus says something along the lines of "None of us want her leading." This is a Turian, albeit a bad one, questioning the chain of command openly. 

[Iakus]

That's just it, she doesn't get results. Show me an outstanding point where her actions get the desired results beyond arming a nuke? She endangered the mission on Eden Prime. I let her know it. I let her know how incompetent I she was. Not just from Shepard's position, but from my own position. Honestly, if the game allowed me, for what her actions caused, I'd have pulled some stripes and got her somewhere where she can do the most good with her skill-set. That would probably be a training facility on Earth, maybe Titan. From what the game tells us, she's a decent training NCO. I'd put her in a training position to do the most good there.

 

She survived when everyone around else around her, officer and enlisted, died.  She that's the result she got.  Same result as Sole Survivor Shepard did.

 

She endangered nothing.  She had no way of knowing the beacon would respond to her proximity. 

 

Unless you're talking about Virmire.  Then I still have no idea what she endangered.  She was less a danger to that mission than Wrex, that's for sure.

[Iakus]

I can't find a video, but Garrus says something along the lines of "None of us want her leading." This is a Turian, albeit a bad one, questioning the chain of command openly. 

 

Garrus says that if Jack is dead during the initial planning of the SM.

 

And even if Jack is alive, Garrus is visibly nodding to her objection.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

 
Actions speak louder than words. I'll take Ashley mouthing off over Kaidan snapping any day. Because at the end of the day, Ashley still has enough discipline to shut it if her CO tells her to. Can't really tell an emotional outburst to shut it, particularly if lethal damage has already been done.
 
My contentions mostly dealt with the political bullshit of keeping Ashley down because of her grandfather, something you admitted was unfair even if you didn't give a damn. I acknowledge and respect your RL experience and don't contend your analysis based on those direct facts. But I choose to look at it a different way- someone that hungry to prove themselves will prove themselves.
 
And I'm sorry, what experience does Jenkins have again? I have none and even to me he's green as ****. If Shepard is willing to step into a hostile situation with Jenkins at his back, he'll have no problem doing so with Williams.
 

 

And you expect him to be a normal functioning adult after that trauma? The point is he snapped. I'll admit it was a shitty situation a kid should never be in, but it happened and it left its damage. And I do not want that at my back.
 

 
Yep. At the end of the day I, the player found Kaidan boring and Ashley interesting, something I admit the romance played a part in. Since I had to choose one I chose Ashley. And since most of my time in the series was spent in the latter parts, Kaidan has become a non-character for me. But I stand by my judgement regarding Kaidan's potential psychological scarring as a matter of discussion and as what my Shepard would consider.

 

The issue is that Kaidan I have to ask; even though he's had trauma in the past, how exactly would you classify anything Kaidan's done in the game as erratic or unstable? Wouldn't Shepard's own experiences in two of the three origins and all of the character backgrounds mean he'd be privy to the same kind of psychological state? One emotional outburst in a very traumatic situation doesn't necessarily equal an unstable personality. Sure he's scarred by it. Shepard is going to have to contend with everything he or she has ever had to contend with as well. 

 

As for Jenkins, I hold that he might be youthful, but he is a Corporal: he has some experience, and he has to know his stuff if he's going to be on the most advanced ship in the alliance.

 

As for the last point, I'll say that that's fine. When I save Ashley, it's because my Shepard was thinking with his penis and not his brain. He regards it later as the worst decision he ever made, because a capable and useful soldier died so he could have sex with a woman who he would grow to hate.That's how I look at her survival.

[Star fury]

She endangered the mission on Eden Prime. I let her know it. I let her know how incompetent I she was.

Listen, if you play FemShep, it's Kaidan who activates the beacon and supposedly "endangered the mission". The person who is the same gender as Shepard will then go to talk to the Commander, while the other investigates the beacon. But you didn't know that, that's why this criticism is dumb.

[DeinonSlayer]

It's hard to see you as being as objective in your assessment as you claim, Massive, when you have at times talked about how fun it is to kill Ashley and spun a lengthy yarn about how she dies in your fanfic. This isn't the only subject which has been tainted by this.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

She survived when everyone around else around her, officer and enlisted, died.  She that's the result she got.  Same result as Sole Survivor Shepard did.

 

She endangered nothing.  She had no way of knowing the beacon would respond to her proximity. 

 

Unless you're talking about Virmire.  Then I still have no idea what she endangered.  She was less a danger to that mission than Wrex, that's for sure.

 

That's not necessarily difficult or spectacular of a result to get, and it really doesn't demonstrate skill in how she escaped or what she did. I saw her running straight away from Geth drones, getting shot. She wasn't demonstrating any kind of skill or talent to me. 

 

And yes, she did endanger the mission. She activated the beacon, which caused it to be destroyed. For whatever reason, it's implied that only a suitably strong-willed person would be able to survive. Had she been stuck, there's no guarantee she'd survive or be in control of her mental faculties. That would screw the galaxy very quickly. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

It's hard to see you as being as objective in your assessment as you claim, Massive, when you have at times talked about how fun it is to kill Ashley and spun a lengthy yarn about how she dies in your fanfic. This isn't the only subject which has been tainted by this.

 

I can see how it would be difficult, but at the same time, remember how I'm the guy who's always wanking on about rational arguments? I'm no exception to that rules. I do separate how I feel from what I can observe as best I can. I'll freely admit I'm human and am capable of error in this regard, but I feel that as well as making a judgment of her character that results in her creative demise, I can make a professional assessment of her and why I wouldn't want her on the Normandy in the first place.

[KaiserShep]

Kaiden could very well have died if he got snagged by the beacon as well. Technically, it was Saren that activated it.

[Iakus]

That's not necessarily difficult or spectacular of a result to get, and it really doesn't demonstrate skill in how she escaped or what she did. I saw her running straight away from Geth drones, getting shot. She wasn't demonstrating any kind of skill or talent to me. 

 

And yes, she did endanger the mission. She activated the beacon, which caused it to be destroyed. For whatever reason, it's implied that only a suitably strong-willed person would be able to survive. Had she been stuck, there's no guarantee she'd survive or be in control of her mental faculties. That would screw the galaxy very quickly. 

 

First point: She also destroyed said drones. Only taking a hit or two on her shields.  For all we know she lured them into a trap by faking panic.  Just as valid an interpretation as yours.

 

Second point:  No, she didn't endanger the mission, as neither she, nor Kaidan, nor Shepard, nor anyone else on the freaking planet (save maybe Doctor Manuel) could have possibly known what would happen.  This wasn't incompetance, nor stupidity, nor lack of training.  It was an event nobody could have possibly forseen. 

 

And I admit, a Mass Effect game where Shepard has to protect a prophetic and possibly half-mad Ash/Kaidan while seaching for the Conduit might have been a cool story.

[DeinonSlayer]

First point: She also destroyed said drones. Only taking a hit or two on her shields.  For all we know she lured them into a trap by faking panic.  Just as valid an interpretation as yours.
 
Second point:  No, she didn't endanger the mission, as neither she, nor Kaidan, nor Shepard, nor anyone else on the freaking planet (save maybe Doctor Manuel) could have possibly known what would happen.  This wasn't incompetance, nor stupidity, nor lack of training.  It was an event nobody could have possibly forseen. 
 
And I admit, a Mass Effect game where Shepard has to protect a prophetic and possibly half-mad Ash/Kaidan while seaching for the Conduit might have been a cool story.

Needs moar Shoggoth.

[eyezonlyii]

Epic double fail post.

[CrutchCricket]

The issue is that Kaidan I have to ask; even though he's had trauma in the past, how exactly would you classify anything Kaidan's done in the game as erratic or unstable? Wouldn't Shepard's own experiences in two of the three origins and all of the character backgrounds mean he'd be privy to the same kind of psychological state? One emotional outburst in a very traumatic situation doesn't necessarily equal an unstable personality. Sure he's scarred by it. Shepard is going to have to contend with everything he or she has ever had to contend with as well. 

 

As for Jenkins, I hold that he might be youthful, but he is a Corporal: he has some experience, and he has to know his stuff if he's going to be on the most advanced ship in the alliance.

 

As for the last point, I'll say that that's fine. When I save Ashley, it's because my Shepard was thinking with his penis and not his brain. He regards it later as the worst decision he ever made, because a capable and useful soldier died so he could have sex with a woman who he would grow to hate.That's how I look at her survival.

 

The difference is you have control over Shepard. So you can play him whacked out (as much as the game will allow) or you can play him as having dealt with the trauma and moved on. And it's up to his commander to decide whether that's trustworthy enough. The opening of ME1 raises that very point in fact. Anderson chooses to trust him. Maybe I wouldn't have. When it's my turn to decide, I decide differently. Of course, my chosen background is far different from Kaidan's. As a spacer I have no childhood trauma though I do have emotional detachment almost to the point of sociopathy. As the Butcher of Torfan I've done some crazy ****, but all of it was controlled and under orders. My Shepard may be more psychologically abnormal than Kaidan, but it's a controlled reliable, known quantity.

 

I think Bioware messed up with Jenkins. I see your point about him needing to have done something to be on the Normandy. But what we actually see when we talk to him tells a different story. He's obviously a noob, and he's hitting all the stereotypes of one: nervous, excitable, thinking it's a game, wanting to be badass etc. The joke is he was supposed to reference Leroy Jenkins. So I think they should've made him seem somewhat experienced but ultra-cocky. Maybe have a briefing where he's not paying attention, or unnecessary bravado on the way down. That would've avoided the apparent contradiction.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I think Bioware messed up with Jenkins. I see your point about him needing to have done something to be on the Normandy. But what we actually see when we talk to him tells a different story. He's obviously a noob, and he's hitting all the stereotypes of one: nervous, excitable, thinking it's a game, wanting to be badass etc. The joke is he was supposed to reference Leroy Jenkins. So I think they should've made him seem somewhat experienced but ultra-cocky. Maybe have a briefing where he's not paying attention, or unnecessary bravado on the way down. That would've avoided the apparent contradiction.

 

On his point, it would also be more credible if he died in a way where he's going out of his way to be the hero, or being stupid. As it is, he dies in a manner not unlike how a lot of professionals have gone down. He's not doing anything stupid or extraneous. He's moving when Shepard orders him too. He's bounding to his next position when he simply gets caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. 

[AlexMBrennan]

And yes, she did endanger the mission. She activated the beacon, which caused it to be destroyed. For whatever reason, it's implied that only a suitably strong-willed person would be able to survive.

And if they hadn't activated the beacon then Shepard wouldn't have been exposed to the beacon, and without the vision Saren would have won before a research team would have had time to "properly" analyse the artefact. 

[Bob from Accounting]

Let's stop beating around the bush.

 

Claiming that someone is 'stupid' or doing anything wrong at all by walking within several meters of an artifact is just laughably ridiculous.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

He died because he was Richard "Leeeeeroy!" Jenkins.

 

As for Ash, I thought professionalism and doing the right thing doesn't matter as much as getting the desired results?

 

Edit:  I have to wonder, why does Miranda's Rule of Sexy catsuit get a pass when Ash's Rule of Cool chase scene gets ripped apart?

 

Dat Ass