Except your point enforces what Xil said: that the Dalish can't be snobbish nobles because they aren't nobility, they are a diverse group of nomads who live independent of human rule for a variety of reasons.
Hardly, when the disagreements focus on disdain for one's culture and race.
Sigh.
I see you still can't see anything but the terms of what you want to see everyone seeing the topic as even when you see them telling you what they saw.
Unsurprising and utterly typical.
Sigh.
I see you still can't see anything but the terms of what you want to see everyone seeing the topic as even when you see them telling you what they saw.
Unsurprising and utterly typical.
Because you addressed one aspect of Xil's post while intentionally ignoring the other part, thereby making the entire premise of your post utterly pointless?
Because you addressed one aspect of Xil's post while intentionally ignoring the other part, thereby making the entire premise of your post utterly pointless?
Nope. Because I addressed one aspect of Xil's post because I was only interested in one point of it. My only premise was that that one aspect of Xil's post was flawed.
I target weak supporting arguments without addressing or even challenging their intended point all the time. It's something of a hobby, really. I care less about what people believe than how they go about justifying it. In this case, I actually agree with Xil's intended rebuttal, just not how she went about it.
In this case, Xil made an argument by insinuating that being snobbish nobility is incompatible with being penniless and nomadic. That is a weak argument because none of those traits are mutually exclusive. If Xil had used your argument (that the Dalish aren't snobbish nobles because they are composed of more than just nobles), that would have been a far stronger argument against the Dalish being snobbish nobility. Not necessarily about being snobbish, but the part of being nobility would have been decisively demolished.
If Xil had made your argument, I likely wouldn't have posted anything in response. But she didn't, so I did.
Of course, I don't expect you to see it that way. This explanation is for the benefit of anyone else.
I must have missed that. Which pub song is that?
I've talked to plenty of Dalish, they sure fooled me. Not to mention the Dalish don't consider city elves to be real elves. They act as if wondering around aimlessly in the wilds makes them morally superior to city elves.
Some Dalish, not all Dalish (Clan Lavellan is one example that illustrate this, and less we forget how Zathrian's clan rescued Aneirin when they stumbled across him, near death). Just like some city elves consider elves who leave the Alienage to be 'flat ears', and view them as tossing away everything that makes them elven. As hahren Sarethia of the Highever Alienage wrote, "Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who have gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere."
You can make some of the same criticisms about the Dalish as you can about the City elves, but in both cases we're addressing ethnic groups of people populated by a myriad of different people. It all comes down to the simple fact that no group in Thedas is perfect.
Sera's views on the Dalish and the City elves were an issue of contention between her and my Lavellan Inquisitor. What's nice is how you can play the Dalish Inquisitor as someone who is Dalish and cares about all the elves (similar to Merrill, who voiced that their plight mattered in Dragon Age II, and has taken the task of watching over the elves left destitute in the wake of the Mage-Templar War). Despite my protagonist's opposition to some of Sera's views, Roamingmachine has talked quite positively about Sera, and I'd like to try to get to know her better.
I've been thinking about how certain regular posters are reacting/will react to Sera based on what I've seen here in the last day or two.
Spoiler
I honestly can't remember what I did with the ears in CC. Could it be because I started from a different head preset? (Tressa is actually made from the dark-skinned preset because I liked that basic head shape.)
Has anybody else had rogue Hawke show up in the warrior armour? I've not done the mission with her yet so I don't know if it's just a glitch whie she's at Skyhold...
Could very well be.
And no, my Hawke had the Rogue Mantle of the Champion.
Some Dalish, not all Dalish (Clan Lavellan is one example that illustrate this, and less we forget how Zathrian's clan rescued Aneirin when they stumbled across him, near death). Just like some city elves consider elves who leave the Alienage to be 'flat ears', and view them as tossing away everything that makes them elven. As hahren Sarethia of the Highever Alienage wrote, "Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who have gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere."
You can make some of the same criticisms about the Dalish as you can about the City elves, but in both cases we're addressing ethnic groups of people populated by a myriad of different people. It all comes down to the simple fact that no group in Thedas is perfect.
Sera's views on the Dalish and the City elves were an issue of contention between her and my Lavellan Inquisitor. What's nice is how you can play the Dalish Inquisitor as someone who is Dalish and cares about all the elves (similar to Merrill, who voiced that their plight mattered in Dragon Age II, and has taken the task of watching over the elves left destitute in the wake of the Mage-Templar War). Despite my protagonist's opposition to some of Sera's views, Roamingmachine has talked quite positively about Sera, and I'd like to try to get to know her better.
Pretty sure you mean Lanaya.
And HOLY HECK, THEY WEREN'T KIDDING. THREE DRAGONS IN EMPRISE DU LION.
Pretty sure you mean Lanaya.
And HOLY HECK, THEY WEREN'T KIDDING. THREE DRAGONS IN EMPRISE DU LION.
Lanaya is another example, but Zathrian's clan rescued Aneirin, too.
Not a bad list. Sera is becoming perhaps the most polarizing character in the game along with Vivienne. It's funny because for the most part people who are fans of one hate the other one it's almost like a class thing. They are Left Wing and Right Wing lol.
Would have been better if Cassandra represented us, then I would have given Bioware props, but I don't really give them props for Sera as far as representation. If you were someone who had no prior knowledge to the fact that she was gender gated, would you ever actually know she was a lesbian? If you were a male PC for all you know she could just not be romancable like Vivienne, and if you were a female PC, her dialogue could be completely interchangeable with a male PC with some changed pronouns. That's the problem. The meta knowledge that she's gay is supposed to be enough, but it's not.
My thoughts exactly. There was a lot of hype that now, with LIs having different orientations it would finally matter. Of course, it could only matter for non-straight folks because everyone is expected to be straight by default, it's considered to be the "norm". And it did matter for Dorian, but as for Sera, not at all. She could as well not be a lesbian, if she was turned into bisexual there wouldn't even be a need for much change in her conversations. Her orientation doesn't play absolutely any importance in her character arc, because of what I don't find her believeable.
I know that some people think that it would be better if we pretended that we are the same, statements that "why should it matter that she's gay, other characters are straight and no one makes a fuss of it", but it's a lot more complicated, and our situations are not symmetrical at all. Simply because we're members of minority it affects our lives from the moment we realize that we're different. And unlike racial or ethnic minorities, we're not born among people who are like us, we can't stick to them (though thanks to internet things are a bit better nowadays), and surrounded by people who aren't like us, we think that something is wrong with us. Google the concept of "heteronormativity". It would have to leave an impact on Sera.
Of course Thedas is not medieval or later Europe, it wouldn't make her think Maker hates her and she will have a gruesome death if anyone finds out but it was clearly showed by codex entries that it's not considered to be something "normal". So, it appears to be similar to how homosexuality is treated for example in Japan. And no, it's not the same as heterosexuality.
I was wondering if it's because Dorian is written by a gay man and Sera is not written by a lesbian, but then I remembered that some of the classic lesbian movies like F***ing Åmål/Show Me Love were made by straight men, and as for games, Gone Home's story was written when the studio was composed from 2 straight men and straight woman (later a gay woman joined the team but according to the site's info she's responsible for technical stuff), so it really wasn't impossible thing to do.
So personally to me it feels like we've got short end of the stick again. Gay men having this wonderfully developed character with much importance to the main story, whose orientation, while doesn't define him and isn't everything he is, is part of him and is not not pretended to be something unimportant, giving gay guys visibility and representation. Sera is none of it, you could easily never see her face and she was intentionally made as polarizing character as possible so devs knowing it give you an option to kick her (and only her) out whenever you want.
Though I understand and sympathize with women who wanted Cassandra to be romancable by females, I would like to point out that my having her as a male-only romance, it neatly undercuts any complaints by straight guys about being "shorted".
Would Cassandra really be a better representation for gay women? I'd find that really annoyingly stereotypical. I enjoy the fact that Sera is not trying to be more than herself and doesn't wear a huge badge that says "I'm gay!". Dorian kind of does push his sexuality at every chance that it's almost laughable during his personal quest that you can act like you didn't know. Would it really make a huge difference to Sera's character if one of her personal quests was about being a lesbian? They could have had some kind of big statement on being a lesbian and being religious but i think it'd come off as fake and spark a huge whine debate between sides when we should be enjoying the game.
Though i wonder if Sera was bisexual would so many people hate her as much?
well...it has been virtually assailed. technically and realistically. and you have said here and on other threads that you will have something go the way you planned at all costs on most things. this is also bothering you. I'm not trying to delve into your psyche too far here. but...you really are a fan. you just don't see it. a character was written that questions/dislikes all the things you hold dear in this virtual world...and you like her. Rest your understanding on this, if you can.
I would say resistance is futile in this case but you're a stubborn one lol
"You cannot be my friend and despise what I stand for."
The problem with Sera is that what I would like her for, which includes in large part the fact that she seemed to have a strong potential for growth, never actually materializes in the game. She never grows or changes at all. And it's that that's left me so frustrated.
Would Cassandra really be a better representation for gay women? I'd find that really annoyingly stereotypical.
Given that every single lesbian/bisexual woman in Bioware games thus far has been femme, except for Branka, I would say that it's no longer a problematic sterotype in this context.
Lanaya is another example, but Zathrian's clan rescued Aneirin, too.
Alright. Fair point.
He's just not as memorable to me as Lanaya. Let's face it, that voice... and that face... (and those ears)
that voice
Kimberly Brooks tend to do that
Given that every single lesbian/bisexual woman in Bioware games thus far has been femme, except for Branka, I would say that it's no longer a problematic sterotype in this context.
Not only in Bioware games, in TV non-femme lesbians (who then don't sleep with men for contrived plot reason) almost don't exist. So what "stereotype" is it when it's not visible at all. Some lesbians actually are butches. There's nothing wrong with that.
Would Cassandra really be a better representation for gay women? I'd find that really annoyingly stereotypical. I enjoy the fact that Sera is not trying to be more than herself and doesn't wear a huge badge that says "I'm gay!". Dorian kind of does push his sexuality at every chance that it's almost laughable during his personal quest that you can act like you didn't know. Would it really make a huge difference to Sera's character if one of her personal quests was about being a lesbian? They could have had some kind of big statement on being a lesbian and being religious but i think it'd come off as fake and spark a huge whine debate between sides when we should be enjoying the game.
Though i wonder if Sera was bisexual would so many people hate her as much?
Remember that Dorian was written with gay male players in mind by a gay man, so it should be the most important what gay men think about him. And judging from various forums and comments under articles about him, he's well received. Now, check out lesbian sites to see how Sera's been received.
I failed myself.
I replaced Sera in my party with Solas to kill the Emprise du Lion Dragons. I mean, at least two of the three have FIRE VULNERABILITY. Dorian was a real powerhouse while I kept Sera in party, so I thought... "What's better than ONE Mage who has a staff and spells just for the job? Hmm, I wonder! Well, why of course, TWO SUCH MAGES!"
And I needed a tank. Cass, you're up. Dorian, grab your regular kit. Solas... *throws freshly crafted equipment* On me!
Just slain the Fereldan Frostback Dragon on Nightmare difficulty. *Brushes shoulder* No biggie.
Remember that Dorian was written with gay male players in mind by a gay man, so it should be the most important what gay men think about him. And judging from various forums and comments under articles about him, he's well received. Now, check out lesbian sites to see how Sera's been received.
What I want to know is, what exactly IS the "stereotype" surrounding lesbians who have short hair and are less feminine? That they exist at all? They're so extremely rare in mainstream television and movies that it's a big deal when they're seen at all, and in those cases they tend to be well written, because they were deliberately created to fill a void.
So yeah, when I see "Cassandra couldn't be a lesbian or bi, because that would be stereotypical!!!" I'm always wondering exactly what that means. Someone somewhere is going to say something homophobic/misogynistic about her? Too late, that happened anyway.
I really hate the notion that a character's sexuality being important to them has to translate to wearing an 'I'm gay' badge, overtly discussing it, getting gay quests, and generally being some kind of agenda pushing political statement*. Sexuality is important to some people, actually it's probably important to most people - just in different ways. At the end of the day a character is just a bundle of traits, which are hopefully important enough to them to be worth mentioning.
*Everything is a statement anyway. Even if it's just for fun.
------------
I need to play it again, but I think Sera's attitude to her sexuality is consistent with her attitude to anything else - that is to deny that it is significant. Which I think (probably?) makes sense, but it obviously isn't what everyone wanted.
What I want to know is, what exactly IS the "stereotype" surrounding lesbians who have short hair and are less feminine? That they exist at all? They're so extremely rare in mainstream television and movies that it's a big deal when they're seen at all, and in those cases they tend to be well written, because they were deliberately created to fill a void.
I think it is supposed to be a stereotype of public opinion rather than mainstream story-telling media.
It's stupid of course. The only way to get around female stereotypes is writing better and increasing your representation so that you show there is more than one kind of person.
------
I don't think Cassandra is masculine.
Whether a character is straight, gay or whatever they want to cal themselves shouldn't come into context unless it is relevant. I know Sera is a lesbian, but in my play through, she hasn't mentioned it once. And she doesn't need too. Dorian, some lines have come up, but nothing to say he is "gay". I know he's gay, but he hasn't stated it in my play through.
Hmm.
Are we arguing about this?
I think it's nice that the introduction wasn't "Hey, I'm Sera and I'm a lesbian!"
After all, does everyone need to know? No. The need for such knowledge comes if you hit on the character, aye?
Sheesh, watch me get in the argument.
Right in front of the final quest, not once Sera outright said she prefers women. Well, maybe except the romance bits, but that falls under what I just said.
Dorian only says he prefers men out loud (well, without romance, no idea there) if you're really being oblivious to it during his meeting with his father. That's it.
He does say that in a... "Finally you realized" or something tone, but I'm no expert on voice tones.
Retour en haut
