100552 réponses à ce sujet

[LightningPoodle]

Damn you Walder Frey! I'm watching Game of Thrones, more specifically, the Red Wedding and all I can think off is "I want to watch Harry Potter."

[SardaukarElite]

That's kind of what I was driving at... He was just... inoffensive.

 

Yes, I just meant that I don't think you need to necessarily add flaws to make a character more interesting. I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Sera has flaws and that's great, but I think a character could be largely missing flaws, and that would be okay, probably.

[Sporothrix]

http://thesimseffect...quire-hes-a-she

 

Sorry, but claim from that blog:

 

Sera: "Crotch rot. Beats his squire. He’s a she. Has a bastard. Extra toes. What a fun, close-marrying crowd."

Sara’s actual quote. 

(“Crotch rot. Beats his squire. He’s a she. Has a bastard. Extra toes.”) What she is over hearing from the crowd.

(‘What a fun, close-marrying crowd”) Her actual words.

 

is a lie. That's the actual quote:

 

 

No quotation marks, and if she was just citing what she over heard, there would be ones. And if she was just citing other people's gossip as something negative, it wouldn't make sense why would she list that "he's a she" with those other things anyway.

 

My advice. Clinging to anything that would defend Sera's behavior, no matter how ridiculous it is, just like previous "she can't be transphobic because she likes Iron Bull who likes Krem" (even though you actually can act transphobic to IB about Krem and he still likes you) only highlights the problem more.

[WildOrchid]

Yes, I just meant that I don't think you need to necessarily add flaws to make a character more interesting. I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Sera has flaws and that's great, but I think a character could be largely missing flaws, and that would be okay, probably.

 

Indeed but flaws give you lots of discussions though.

[YourFunnyUncle]

http://thesimseffect...quire-hes-a-she

Interesting. While I don't think that proves anything, it's certainly a perfectly valid interpretation of that line. Labelling her as transphobic based on one line that can be alternatively interpreted and no other supporting evidence in hours of dialogue and banter seems highly dubious to me.

[WildOrchid]

Sorry, but claim from that blog:

 

Sera: "Crotch rot. Beats his squire. He’s a she. Has a bastard. Extra toes. What a fun, close-marrying crowd."

Sara’s actual quote. 

(“Crotch rot. Beats his squire. He’s a she. Has a bastard. Extra toes.”) What she is over hearing from the crowd.

(‘What a fun, close-marrying crowd”) Her actual words.

 

is a lie. That's the actual quote:

 

 

No quotation marks, and if she was just citing what she over heard, there would be ones. And if she was just citing other people's gossip as something negative, it wouldn't make sense why would she list that "he's a she" with those other things anyway.

 

My advice. Clinging to anything that would defend Sera's behavior, no matter how ridiculous it is, just like previous "she can't be transphobic because she likes Iron Bull who likes Krem" (even though you actually can act transphobic to IB about Krem and he still likes you) only highlights the problem more.

 

Fine, go believe she's transphobic. I'm done with it.

 

 

 

 

Interesting. While I don't think that proves anything, it's certainly a perfectly valid interpretation of that line. Labelling her as transphobic based on one line that can be alternatively interpreted and no other supporting evidence in hours of dialogue and banter seems highly dubious to me.

 

Pretty much. But people have to be offended to at least something, even a tibit of it without having more to back it up.

[Basement Cat]

Yes, I just meant that I don't think you need to necessarily add flaws to make a character more interesting. I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Sera has flaws and that's great, but I think a character could be largely missing flaws, and that would be okay, probably.

It's not necessarily about making the character more interesting as opposed to believable. Everyone has flaws. Some minor, some major, some have a mix of both. Characters who are 'perfect' tend to be unrelatable. 

 

Or if you prefer another term: weaknesses. A character with no weakness is either boring or grating. It stretches disbelief when a character is seemingly perfect.

[hong]

I don't see what the big deal is. Sera is not complicated. Sera is simple. As said a few hundred pages back, Sera, stripped of her combat skill and prankster predilections, is basically a chav or a bogan. She has all the positive and negative traits of someone of that ilk.

So, yes, she's going to be ignorant, sometimes aggressively so. And foul-mouthed. And some of her dialogue is going to come off as politically incorrect. But she's also loyal, funny, full of energy, and doesn't take herself too seriously. She says what she means, even if her argot may not always be easy to understand. She's like a breath of fresh (foul?) air in a genre that's generally full of self-important blowhards. She's relatable, in a way that someone like Cassandra or Cullen, awesome though they are, may not be. That's why she's my favourite character, even though (or maybe because?) she can be an idiot sometimes.

[SardaukarElite]

Indeed but flaws give you lots of discussions though.

 

That's one way of looking at it.

 

 

It's not necessarily about making the character more interesting as opposed to believable. Everyone has flaws. Some minor, some major, some have a mix of both. Characters who are 'perfect' tend to be unrelatable. 

 

Or if you prefer another term: weaknesses. A character with no weakness is either boring or grating. It stretches disbelief when a character is seemingly perfect.

 

I know. I suppose what I'm questioning is the idea that a character is balanced by positive and negative traits, rather than having negative consequences to their general character. Someone can be head strong and independent, and all kinds of problems can arise from that but they aren't flaws. Tangents are colliding in my mind though and the thinking is half baked.

[Fiery Phoenix]

It's not necessarily about making the character more interesting as opposed to believable. Everyone has flaws. Some minor, some major, some have a mix of both. Characters who are 'perfect' tend to be unrelatable. 

 

Or if you prefer another term: weaknesses. A character with no weakness is either boring or grating. It stretches disbelief when a character is seemingly perfect.

'Weakness' is probably the better term since it's a little more specific than a flaw.

[Basement Cat]

That's one way of looking at it.

 

I know. I suppose what I'm questioning is the idea that a character is balanced by positive and negative traits, rather than having negative consequences to their general character. Someone can be head strong and independent, and all kinds of problems can arise from that but they aren't flaws. Tangents are colliding in my mind though and the thinking is half baked.

That depends on context. In fact one could argue that when it causes problems, it is a flaw. Being independent when cooperation would be more efficient for example.

There's also this crucial point: who suffers the consequences of those traits? If it's the person with those traits, then fine. It's their business. But if it causes problems for other people? Then it could be a flaw.

 

Then the 'greater good' can come and muddle the issue further. It's complicated. But fascinating!

[Sporothrix]

That's kind of what I was driving at... He was just... inoffensive.

 

Rather uninteresting as he didn't have neither good nor bad traits, in ME2. And the fact that female Shepards just had to act like cat in heat around him was really annoying since his writer apparently forgot or didn't care lesbians also played that game. Besides, not every straight woman had to be attracted to him either.

 

As for pop-culture lesbian characters, I really like Batwoman. She was made by straight man (albeit Greg Rucka said he identifies more with women but isn't trans because he's comfortable in his body), her storyline is an example how non-normative sexuality, while not being a defining trait, still affects our lifes in significant way. Rucka passed it down to 2 other (straight male) writers, but it was still on good course. As far as I've seen Batwoman comics were universally acclaimed in lesbian community. But then another writer (gay man BTW) came because previous ones left when DC didn't allow to have Batwoman to marry her girlfriend, and the comic lost most of its readers, as such things like vampire mind control rape of protagonist which as the writer claimed wasn't rape at all, with male gaze shots, occured among the others.

[Sporothrix]

'Weakness' is probably the better term since it's a little more specific than a flaw.

 

Some 'weaknesses' are more forgivable than others. What 'weakness' did Varric have that made him the most liked and memorable companion from Dragon Age 2?

[Basement Cat]

Maybe Sera was just being an arse?

 

This is one thing that really sh*ts me off about people these days. Victim mentality... picking apart and analysing what others may say, getting all hot and bothered, chuck a tantrum then scream to the heavens, "Discrimination!!!!"

 

The word "transphobic" didn't even come to mind when my character spoke to her in the winter palace. The impression I got was that she was "listening in" on what all the nobles were gossiping about. Just because the subtitles don't have quotation marks, doesn't mean she's "transphobic". Sure, she may have been pulling the p*ss a little... that's clear to see at "crotch rot".

 

Look, just because somebody says something that isn't really "politically correct", doesn't necessarily mean that they have a phobia or judge somebody by race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. Sometimes it's just joking around. I do it all the time, make fun of something without actually meaning any ill intent by it. Oh, and don't worry, the sensitive whinge about it... but sometimes, you just need to harden up, build a bridge, and get over it.

The problem with that view is that people are not mind readers. How do they know you are just joking and not being a douche? That kind of joking among friends is ok if everybody understands it's a joke.

 

There are real issues here and coming from a stranger it's really hard to tell a joke from a genuine slur. As for the 'sensitive' 'whinging' about it, well maybe you should consider restricting your non pc jokes to your friends, and if they tell you they are not ok with it you stop. Otherwise you're basically telling them that what they want doesn't matter to you and that is just wrong.

[Sporothrix]

Fine, go believe she's transphobic. I'm done with it.

 

 

Fine, but please don't lead on people that it's been "proven" somehow that it wasn't what Sera meant, when the source you cite is so blatantly lying.

[Basement Cat]

Fine, but please don't lead on people that it's been "proven" somehow that it wasn't what Sera meant, when the source you cite is lying.

Let's call it open to interpretation and cease the hostilities. Please?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Some 'weaknesses' are more forgivable than others. What 'weakness' did Varric have that made him the most liked and memorable companion from Dragon Age 2?

I'm not saying a character has to have weaknesses to be likable or prominent, just that having or showing a sign of weakness gives a character credibility and helps increase the degree to which people are likely to care for them (or not care for them). This is one of the issues Jacob suffered from as a character. He didn't have anything going for him. You had no reason to love or hate him.

[WildOrchid]

Fine, but please don't lead on people that it's been "proven" somehow that it wasn't what Sera meant, when the source you cite is so blatantly lying.

 

Funny you say that, since you instantly decided to put a label on her from one line that doesn't prove anything at all and you call her transphobic as a fact.

[Roamingmachine]

The problem with that view is that people are not mind readers. How do they know you are just joking and not being an douche? That kind of joking among friends is ok if everybody understands it's a joke.

 

There are real issues here and coming from a stranger it's really hard to tell a joke from a genuine slur. As for the 'sensitive' 'whinging' about it, well maybe you should consider restricting your non pc jokes to your friends, and if they tell you they are not ok with it you stop. Otherwise you're basically telling them that what they want doesn't matter to you and that is just wrong.

Taking everyones feeling in to consideration is admirable, but ultimately will lead to pretty short conversations. People will take offense of anything. But people are usually free to choose who they associate with and which conversations to participate in. If i'd take to heart everything i hear that offends me but isn't actually directed at me, i would have exploded of rage long ago. This isnt to say that one shouldn't be civil, if not polite, as much as possible. Nobody likes an intentional douche. But i strongly object to anyone getting muzzled just because someone MIGHT be offended.

[WildOrchid]

Let's call it open to interpretation and cease the hostilities. Please?

 

 

Yep. No more posts on this matter.

[Serza]

Let's call it open to interpretation and cease the hostilities. Please?

 

I can call in the UN if you wish, Cat.

[LightningPoodle]

I can call in the UN if you wish, Cat.

 

Shall we arm the nukes, sir?

[Serza]

Shall we arm the nukes, sir?

 

Negative, Lieutenant.

We do not need that much firepower for peacekeeping operations.

A battalion of heavy armor, supported by a company of heavy artillery will do the job just fine.

 

(That's actually a jab at UN's armed forces.)