100552 réponses à ce sujet

[LightningPoodle]

Morning!

 

source: http://snownymphs.deviantart.com/

 

Damn it! F*ck my Uni network. They blocked DeviantArt. So I can't use the link nor see the image.

[I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY]

What is a Mary Sue? Like actually, not what it's known for now.

 

A term people slap on a character they don't like when they don't actually feel like formulating a remotely thoughtful opinion on them. That's basically what it says.

 

Maybe it meant something else before, but that's the gist of it. :S

[Basement Cat]

A term people slap on a character they don't like when they don't actually feel like formulating a remotely thoughtful opinion on them.  

 

Maybe it meant something else before, but that's the gist of it. :S

It sure did. The original Mary Sue (her actual name) was from a Star Trek novel. She became a captain at 15, she could do everyone's job better than they could themselves and everybody (in story) adored her.

 

To be a Mary Sue, or the male equivalent Marty Stu, the character has to be better than everyone else and universally adored by all even when they royally screw up. The exception to the adoration rule is in one 'rival' character, usually female, who hates the Sue. Everyone else hates this character.

 

A good example of a recent Mary Sue is Bella Swan, with the 'rival' character being Leah Clearwater. She calls Bella out on her putting everyone else in danger and everyone else just goes 'stop being so mean!'

[Basement Cat]

This is just too awesome. The Catquisition!

 

X

[YourFunnyUncle]

I think the TV Tropes article on Mary Sue gives a good idea of how nebulous and vague the term has become. Basically it now seems to mean "Female character that I don't like."

[introverted_assassin]

then that doesn't apply to my character at all. especially not 40+ pages in. Snook you really defined how I see the term whenever it is used. every time I read it somewhere, i just want to put baby powder in my hand and pimp slap whoever used it.

[I WANT YOU TO FUCK ME JERY]

It sure did. The original Mary Sue (her actual name) was from a Star Trek novel. She became a captain at 15, she could do everyone's job better than they could themselves and everybody (in story) adored her.

 

To be a Mary Sue, or the male equivalent Marty Stu, the character has to be better than everyone else and universally adored by all even when they royally screw up. The exception to the adoration rule is in one 'rival' character, usually female, who hates the Sue. Everyone else hates this character.

 

A good example of a recent Mary Sue is Bella Swan, with the 'rival' character being Leah Clearwater. She calls Bella out on her putting everyone else in danger and everyone else just goes 'stop being so mean!'

 

Always thought the original meaning was just 'character without flaws,' didn't know it had that much backstory to it. Huh.

 

Yeah, I don't think I've seen a single character it's been applied to that actually fits it. Especially not in Dragon Age.

[introverted_assassin]

let me let the day shift carry on from here. i need to get some semblance of sleep. Don't feed the trolls. I have a feeling they will be in full force today. idk why. Deuces.

[Basement Cat]

Always thought the original meaning was just 'character without flaws,' didn't know it had that much backstory to it. Huh.

 

Yeah, I don't think I've seen a single character it's been applied to that actually fits it. Especially not in Dragon Age.

The closest that comes to being a Sue is Bianca, I think. She's a better shot than Varric, a better smith than Dagna, etc. Varric calls her out on her nonsense though, so it doesn't quite fit.

 

It rankled like heck when she threatened my Inquisitor if 'she harmed Varric'. Wish there had been an option to say 'Can't hurt him more than you have!'

[veeia]

The problem with Mary Sue IMO, even when applied "correctly", is that it's so gendered. People tend to use it to dismiss mediocre stories with female characters, like Twilight, but give its male equivalents (say, Eragorn) more of a pass, calling it an "empowerment fantasy" or something of that nature. Sad fact that "boy stories" are always given more legitimacy or leeway, even when they are not seen as good. (Different but related: how people are SO concerned about portrayals of unhealthy relationships in books for teenage girls, but don't talk about things like that in entertainment geared towards teenage boys) So in theory it could have been a useful term, but then, sexism.

I very much dislike characters that are not flawed or interesting, like Bella, but I don't use Sue anymore, because of that and if I see someone using it, I will of course, examine what they are saying and not just blindly react, but I'm very guarded and suspicious about it and will never take it at face value. Because heck. even outside of that gendered thing, people misuse it so much.

[Basement Cat]

@Veeia

 

The double standard in judging story quality is interesting to me. A lackluster story aimed at boys is given a pass, but aimed at girls it's critiqued harshly. Why is that? Is it the assumption that boys have better judgement and will be able to take it for what it is? Is it the old 'women must be protected' mentality?

 

There seems to be an assumption too that stories aimed at boys won't be read by girls and vice versa. How many people still believe that women don't play video games or not certain types of video games? A girl playing the Sims? They're virtual dolls, so it's not surprising. A girl playing Halo? It raises a few eyebrows still.

 

My family tried to make me play with dolls (Barbies). I ended up dismembering them. XD

[AWTEW]

hehe... the cass thread is more personal and bashes everyone non-humi or not of "like minded idealology". But i understand your perspective

I know that killabee can be a bit extreme in that thread.

I only just started my Seramance as a dwarf but when I asked for a name other than Inky, it was Buckles.
Then Cole opened his mouth and it became Tadwinks.
(Note to self: Stop running an all Rogue party.)

It wentd from inky, then to buckles, and then when the i quisitor told her again about the nickname, it changed to shiny. A dwarf inquisitor romance with sera..i can just see her picking the inquisitor up for hugs a lot.

oh that's gross, I'm not down with bashing people who like the chaste reading of the Solasmance. You'd think that people who are fans of the "it's more complicated than that " character would understand that people have varying and very valid relationships with sexuality, and that the text's ambiguity is a boon, not a punishment. Grossss.
Eirene, i don't have any specific response at the moment, but I found your self analysis there wrt to canon and fanfiction interesting, so thanks for sharing.

It was worse because people were sticking up for that attitude in the thread.

in the south, shared names are a tradition. especially nicknames. yell "pookie" on any street in the south and about 12 dudes will turn around...and possibly 2 females LOL

Here, we dont really have nicknames as such..people just tend to call people by a shortened name, most time. I attribute it to the heat and humidity, and people just not having the energy to keep using long words..

[veeia]

Wait how is it bigoted? I mean I am genuinely interested in this line of rationale because what.

@BC, I have no idea. If I had to guess, I would say its at least partially due to the fact that men's stories are seen as so default/"universal" and thus unquestioned, and everything outside of that (including stories about LGBT or PoC folk) gets a different kind of analysis that is focused on why its oddities are "bad" or "weird" instead of a more defensive line of endearing or natural. Pyschological vs anthropological approaches, almost.

Edit: I also dismembered my barbies, hi5.

[Basement Cat]

Wait how is it bigoted? I mean I am genuinely interested in this line of rationale because what.

@BC, I have no idea. If I had to guess, I would say its at least partially due to the fact that men's stories are seen as so default/"universal" and thus unquestioned, and everything outside of that (including stories about LGBT or PoC folk) gets a different kind of analysis that is focused on why its oddities are "bad" or "weird" instead of a more defensive line of endearing or natural. Pyschological vs anthropological approaches, almost.

Edit: I also dismembered my barbies, hi5.

I think I can guess the 'bigoted' tarot card. The one with the arrow pointing down is reminiscent of a penis (I guess), and since she is a lesbian it's offensive because it says 'lesbians really just want to be men'. If that's the case, it's really reaching.

 

*high fives* Barbies deserve to be torn apart!

[veeia]

I am going to bed, I can't handle that crap when I'm this tired, I'm too confused to parse through already confusing bad opinions. I'll check it out late tho, that sounds...interesting.

[YourFunnyUncle]

@BC, I have no idea. If I had to guess, I would say its at least partially due to the fact that men's stories are seen as so default/"universal" and thus unquestioned, and everything outside of that (including stories about LGBT or PoC folk) gets a different kind of analysis that is focused on why its oddities are "bad" or "weird" instead of a more defensive line of endearing or natural. Pyschological vs anthropological approaches, almost.

It seems that we're in a no-win situation with under-represented sections of society. Until such time as there is something closer to equal representation, there will be problems, as people want more of what appeals to them and get annoyed when something else happens. For example right here with Sera, we have Orchid who loves having a "difficult" lesbian character and Misoretu who sees her as perpetuating bad lesbian stereotypes. How would Lukas go about pleasing both? I think the solution would be that there needs to be more to choose from, but sadly Bioware are in a minority themselves in providing minorities with any sort of solid representation in videogames...

[Basement Cat]

It seems that we're in a no-win situation with under-represented sections of society. Until such time as there is something closer to equal representation, there will be problems, as people want more of what appeals to them and get annoyed when something else happens. For example right here with Sera, we have Orchid who loves having a "difficult" lesbian character and Misoretu who sees her as perpetuating bad lesbian stereotypes. How would Lukas go about pleasing both? I think the solution would be that there needs to be more to choose from, but sadly Bioware are in a minority themselves in providing minorities with any sort of solid representation in videogames...

I don't think Sera is a stereotypical lesbian. She has no problems being friends with men, she's not masculine, she doesn't fit the 'psycho lesbian' trope either. She's just a person who happens to be a lesbian.

 

Sure, she has a bundle of flaws, but so do all the other characters. Dorian has some interesting opinions about slavery, but they are easy to miss because it only happens in dialogue when you specifically ask him about it. His fashion obsession could be construed as stereotypical, but I would chalk it up to his upbringing. Almost all nobles we've met so far are fashion conscious.

[YourFunnyUncle]

I don't think Sera is a stereotypical lesbian. She has no problems being friends with men, she's not masculine, she doesn't fit the 'psycho lesbian' trope either. She's just a person who happens to be a lesbian.

 

Sure, she has a bundle of flaws, but so do all the other characters. Dorian has some interesting opinions about slavery, but they are easy to miss because it only happens in dialogue when you specifically ask him about it. His fashion obsession could be construed as stereotypical, but I would chalk it up to his upbringing. Almost all nobles we've met so far are fashion conscious.

Hey, I'm not saying I agree with Misoretu, but she certainly voiced those opinions. She saw elements of Sera that reminded her of other representations with which she wasn't comfortable. I don't really feel qualified to comment on the detail because, however much I sometimes joke that I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body, I'm not. (Nor am I transgender. I don't feel like a woman, I am just uncomfortable with macho male stereotypes. I'm happy with my body the way it is.)

[Basement Cat]

Hey, I'm not saying I agree with Misoretu, but she certainly voiced those opinions. She saw elements of Sera that reminded her of other representations with which she wasn't comfortable. I don't really feel qualified to comment on the detail because, however much I sometimes joke that I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body, I'm not. (Nor am I transgender. I don't feel like a woman, I am just uncomfortable with macho male stereotypes. I'm happy with my body the way it is.)

And now I have this song in my head. Thanks, Uncle. *mock glare*

 

 

Edit: Shania Twain is so beautiful. 

[YourFunnyUncle]

And now I have this song in my head. Thanks, Uncle. *mock glare*

 

*snip*

Ahahaha! All I wanna do is have some fun.

[SardaukarElite]

I despise that term.

 

Agreed.

 

 

(I especially thought - and think - that I'm a fundamentally derivative fiction writer with no ideas of my own.)

 

I lot of people have managed to have very successful careers as writers despite that.

 

 

 

Will someone explain to me whether woof is a good thing or bad thing? Because dogs woof and here if you call someone a dog, you're saying they're hideous. 

 

Think of it this way, the person saying woof is the dog. Dogs are rather free in expressing their emotions so supposed to conjur the image of speaker quivering with excitement, their tongue hanging loose and probably a little bit of drool.

 

... my books-to-read list is a 59-page MS-Word document. I've been falling behind, apparently.

 

See I just have half read books lying around, it's a more tangible system.

 

Quality not quantity, dear. You sound like an American claiming that their muscle car is better than a Ferrari because it has a bigger engine.

 

Ferraris are overrated.

 

The double standard in judging story quality is interesting to me. A lackluster story aimed at boys is given a pass, but aimed at girls it's critiqued harshly. Why is that?

 

I really don't know, but it reminds me somewhat of the knee jerk threatened masculinity reaction. You can't like that because it's less than normal for you like that, so you despise that. Framed through default is male perspective of society and it becomes normal to despise girly things. There's also the feminine is weak thing which might be related.

 

Thoughts are still compiling, but I think it is feminine related over minority related.

 

(edit) Missing context: my mind leapt to the way a lot of criticism of girl's stories goes to outright frothing at the mouth hatred rather than just arguments of quality. See Twilight.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Ferraris are overrated.

I actually think that cars are overrated in general. It was just another example of Italian excellence that sprang to mind. I guess I could've gone with some form of fashion or food-based analogy...

 

Edit: In terms of sports cars, a big muscle car makes sense in a sparsely populated country with wide straight roads and grid systems in the cities. In densely populated Europe with our narrow twisty roads and chaotic old cities, small and nimble makes more sense.

[veeia]

You can't please everyone nor can you ask one character to stand in for all of a group. That's why you need more than one lesbian character in your franchise, lmao. But you're right there in that in terms of LI, resources are limited.

But the thing is, it doesn't have to be just LI. In DA we have: Sera/Quizzie (overall great but those playing an elfy elf will encounter things that are very uncomfortable and arguably unhealthy), Branka/Hespith, Leliana/Marjoline, and Celene/Briala...that's when you start to go "um guys?"

Of course you can have lovely f/f relationships with Leli and Josie and Merrill and Isabela, but that's complicated by the fact that they are bisexual and their content is largely identical to either gender. It's not that they don't count, it's just..complicated by it and makes talking about their representation as f/f LI different than Sera.

So it's not an easy thing ever, because you have to look at the specific character as a character and their story, but you also need to look at patterns and tropes and such. Difficult to balance, but necessary to consider and talk about thoughtfully.

...wasn't I going to bed? It's almost 3am for me, damn. Ok, goodnight. Hope that was coherent.