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Sera "The Artful Dodger" discussion thread - V2 (now with more V1)


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#66901
Serza

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Nope. It's a Barret M2A1. Semi auto, 10 round mag and a insanely effective muzzle break. Though the best part by far is it's recoil absorption system. It's the only 50cal I have fired that didn't feel like I was being kicked by a horse after firing a few rounds. 

 

Barrett M2A1? Looks a lot like M82A1/A3/M107 to me. Typo...?

 

I meant the round, at any rate.

Mk211 RAUFOSS is a... err... There's some sort of treaty that forbids it being used againist unarmored targets.

I think it's not unlike a regular HEAT round.



#66902
LightningPoodle

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Barrett M2A1? Looks a lot like M82A1/A3/M107 to me. Typo...?

 

I meant the round, at any rate.

Mk211 RAUFOSS is a... err... There's some sort of treaty that forbids it being used againist unarmored targets.

I think it's not unlike a regular HEAT round.

 

I'm guessing it makes a body go KABOOM! So the armour just helps keep all the pieces together.  :P



#66903
SardaukarElite

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Infantry weapons... :rolleyes:

 

Speaking of which, I find the choice of a bow as Sera's signature weapon an interesting one. Her shtick is urban thief, and a bow doesn't exactly speak of close quarters or concealment. Not that I think it's wrong or can't be justified, just that it's a bit odd.



#66904
raging_monkey

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Infantry weapons... :rolleyes:
 
Speaking of which, I find the choice of a bow as Sera's signature weapon an interesting one. Her shtick is urban thief, and a bow doesn't exactly speak of close quarters or concealment. Not that I think it's wrong or can't be justified, just that it's a bit odd.

shes the wildcard haha

#66905
Aimi

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Remember. Those who don't learn by history are doomed to repeat it.


I hate that quote, because it is wrong.

#66906
LightningPoodle

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I hate that quote, because it is wrong.

 

In what way?



#66907
raging_monkey

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I hate that quote, because it is wrong.

how so.

#66908
Guest_John Wayne_*

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Barrett M2A1? Looks a lot like M82A1/A3/M107 to me. Typo...?

 

I meant the round, at any rate.

Mk211 RAUFOSS is a... err... There's some sort of treaty that forbids it being used againist unarmored targets.

I think it's not unlike a regular HEAT round.

 

It was the only picture of a explosive round i could find in a hurry. But, I'm pretty sure you can't use a Mk211 on unarmed targets under something like the geneva convention. But I have not read up on the statutes for a while so I do not know what treaty banned their use or the specifics of it.  

 

Also it is the M82A1. Still half asleep and I'm not a fan of numbers. lol


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#66909
Serza

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I'm guessing it makes a body go KABOOM! So the armour just helps keep all the pieces together.  :P

 

There's a story of the Mk211 being fielded.

Three bad guys took cover behind a thin sheet of metal in order to ambush a patrol, but a sniper saw them do it.

Couldn't hit them, though... So he loaded the RAUFOSS, in order to penetrate the sheet of metal.

The rest of the story is, the sniper could only tell he hit by the fact that the wall a few meters behind the metal sheet turned completely red.

 

Thinking back, a fifty BMG could tear the metal sheet apart regardless... But he needed something that acted as a "Don't f*ck with me, son" kind of round.

 

In what way?

 

Yeah, I wonder too.

 

Is it because we can repeat history even if we know it?

It is not completely wrong. By knowing what led to past evils, we can see the potential for a new one appear, and act accordingly.



#66910
LightningPoodle

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There's a story of the Mk211 being fielded.

Three bad guys took cover behind a thin sheet of metal in order to ambush a patrol, but a sniper saw them do it.

Couldn't hit them, though... So he loaded the RAUFOSS, in order to penetrate the sheet of metal.

The rest of the story is, the sniper could only tell he hit by the fact that the wall a few meters behind the metal sheet turned completely red.

 

Thinking back, a fifty BMG could tear the metal sheet apart regardless... But he needed something that acted as a "Don't f*ck with me, son" kind of round.

 

I believe it was a very thick wall. Not sheet metal. Yes, I saw the documentary about it. It was quite interesting. I believe it was about snipers in general.


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#66911
Aimi

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In what way?

  

how so.


Because nothing that happens is ever the same. Because history is not science; you only get one shot, there are no trials or tests, and even situations that appear fairly similar end up being radically different if you look at them closely enough. Because the undefinable god Context rules the world. Because fog and friction pervade everything, and you can't ever know which way a lot of things will break anyway.

To use the original example: Nazism is not bad because a bunch of Nazis murdered millions of people and impoverished millions more. Nazism was bad long before that, because the basic principles on which it was founded were an affront to morality and to human decency in blatantly transparent ways. Nazism will remain bad because of those things. If the Second World War and the Holocaust had never happened, Nazism would still be bad. If somebody tried to resurrect Nazism, and people failed to respond to that, they would not have failed because they did not know history; they would have failed because they are ethically bankrupt to allow such a prima facie horrendous ideology to fester and grow.

To say that the best reason to study history is to be able to understand the present and predict the future is blatantly wrong. Historians don't understand the present, and no one can predict the future. Each historian has his or her own reason for doing history, but my personal one has nothing to do with 'learning to avoid repeating'. It is founded on the conviction that every human life has fundamental worth and meaning, and that the only way to honor that meaning is to preserve and learn about each one of those lives to the best of our ability, and to understand as much as we can about the worlds in which they lived.
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#66912
Guest_John Wayne_*

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I don't think it's wrong. It just has more to do with learning from other peoples mistakes. Lets face it, a lot of people have the bad habit of trying something, having it completely blow up in their face and they turn right around and try the same damn thing again, expecting it to work out the 2nd, 3rd or 4th time. Sure when it comes to science it can be a good thing. But when you look at it in the context of history, such as the involvement of just about every world power in the various Middle Eastern conflicts, you really have to wonder why so many governments seem to refuse to learn from the past mistakes of others.



#66913
raging_monkey

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Because nothing that happens is ever the same. Because history is not science; you only get one shot, there are no trials or tests, and even situations that appear fairly similar end up being radically different if you look at them closely enough. Because the undefinable god Context rules the world. Because fog and friction pervade everything, and you can't ever know which way a lot of things will break anyway.To use the original example: Nazism is not bad because a bunch of Nazis murdered millions of people and impoverished millions more. Nazism was bad long before that, because the basic principles on which it was founded were an affront to morality and to human decency in blatantly transparent ways. Nazism will remain bad because of those things. If the Second World War and the Holocaust had never happened, Nazism would still be bad. If somebody tried to resurrect Nazism, and people failed to respond to that, they would not have failed because they did not know history; they would have failed because they are ethically bankrupt to allow such a prima facie horrendous ideology to fester and grow.To say that the best reason to study history is to be able to understand the present and predict the future is blatantly wrong. Historians don't understand the present, and no one can predict the future. Each historian has his or her own reason for doing history, but my personal one has nothing to do with 'learning to avoid repeating'. It is founded on the conviction that every human life has fundamental worth and meaning, and that the only way to honor that meaning is to preserve and learn about each one of those lives to the best of our ability, and to understand as much as we can about the worlds in which they lived.

ah i see now

#66914
LightningPoodle

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Because nothing that happens is ever the same. Because history is not science; you only get one shot, there are no trials or tests, and even situations that appear fairly similar end up being radically different if you look at them closely enough. Because the undefinable god Context rules the world. Because fog and friction pervade everything, and you can't ever know which way a lot of things will break anyway.

To use the original example: Nazism is not bad because a bunch of Nazis murdered millions of people and impoverished millions more. Nazism was bad long before that, because the basic principles on which it was founded were an affront to morality and to human decency in blatantly transparent ways. Nazism will remain bad because of those things. If the Second World War and the Holocaust had never happened, Nazism would still be bad. If somebody tried to resurrect Nazism, and people failed to respond to that, they would not have failed because they did not know history; they would have failed because they are ethically bankrupt to allow such a prima facie horrendous ideology to fester and grow.

To say that the best reason to study history is to be able to understand the present and predict the future is blatantly wrong. Historians don't understand the present, and no one can predict the future. Each historian has his or her own reason for doing history, but my personal one has nothing to do with 'learning to avoid repeating'. It is founded on the conviction that every human life has fundamental worth and meaning, and that the only way to honor that meaning is to preserve and learn about each one of those lives to the best of our ability, and to understand as much as we can about the worlds in which they lived.

 

I agree that it's not some way to predict how the future will play out. No one can predict that. I think learning our history is one way of learning what happened before, why it happened, understand why it happened and know why it failed. The various atrocities the world has committed is far to many, but understanding why they began and why they ended can help to understand it in todays world. If we didn't know of Hitler. If we didn't know how the Nazi regime began, we might very well have something similar spring up and oppress people again. We could very well see concentration camps again.

 

Learning how these happened is a way for us to see the signs again, and deal with it before anything can become of it.


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#66915
Aimi

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But when you look at it in the context of history, such as the involvement of just about every world power in the various Middle Eastern conflicts, you really have to wonder why governments seem to refuse to learn from the past mistakes of others.


Because those situations are never exactly the same. Because sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Because the definitions for success and failure are different every time.

For three hundred years between the early seventeenth century and the early twentieth century, many countries attempted to invade Russia from the west. All failed. Some failed quite spectacularly. If there was any sort of rule about grand strategy by that point, it was 'don't invade Russia'. The country was too big, too poorly developed, too populous. It would swallow up any invader. As tensions between Russia and Germany grew at the dawn of the twentieth century, Germany's military leaders were so terrified of the prospect of invading Russia that they structured their entire army and war plan around avoiding that at all costs until there was no other choice.

War broke out in 1914. And although Germany did not begin by invading Russia, the General Staff found itself reluctantly shipping more and more troops east into the trackless steppe: a certain recipe, they thought, for doom...but an unavoidable one.

Fast forward to March 1918. Germany's armies were triumphant everywhere in Russia. The Russian military had been virtually destroyed, by a combination of battlefield defeat and internal revolution. German legions planted their flags from the Baltic coast through to the Caucasus. It was as comprehensive a defeat as any in Russian history, and the new Soviet government had little choice but to come to terms in the humiliating peace of Brest-Litovsk.

The weight of history, of endless failed invasions of Russia, had not been on the German military's side; had Germany's leaders "learned from history" in the sort of facile way most people seem to understand, they would not have fought Russia at all. Yet they did fight. And they won. Because things were different that time, because anybody can get a little lucky, because the advantages that Russia supposedly possessed ended up never accruing properly. Because using a few blurry data points, where there are a thousand causes for everything that are almost impossible to isolate from one another, to define an ironclad Rule of History is stupid.

There is nothing intrinsic to the Middle East, or any other part of the world, that makes some sort of political or military action undertaken there automatically a Bad Idea. But there are many reasons why individual, specific actions taken there, on their own merits, might be Bad Ideas. If "learning from history" is to have any worth at all, then it should rely on that sort of nuance, not on half-baked sweeping proclamations based on a jaundiced view of the past.
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#66916
YourFunnyUncle

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Even science isn't really about certainty. The only place where you have certainty is pure mathematics. In science we can disprove hypotheses, but we can never be sure that the ideas that we have are correct and can't be improved in some way that wasn't previously considered. I prefer not to see science as a quest for certainty and truth, but as a quest to be less wrong.


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#66917
SardaukarElite

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The Nazi example is an important one, because that's not the only time people have come up with an elaborate justification for being really horrible to a general population, and it hasn't been the last. Much as we talk about not repeating history's mistakes we still live in a world were people are regularly taken off buses and shot because they don't know the words of some book or their parents were on the wrong side in some stupid civil war.

 

If anything I think there's a risk that knowing a small bit of horrible history lets people hold it up and say 'see, we're not that bad it's all okay', allowing them to take comfort in their own inaction.

 

That said knowing history does give you tools to make good decisions. My understanding was that the Marshall Plan was a solid go at learning from the mistakes of the previous subjugation of Germany and not messing it up this time, the Cold War still happened but that's another story.

 

Maybe the core thing is that pithy witticisms usually aren't good universal rules. It's like 'history is written by the victors' - sort of but no, something to keep in mind though.



#66918
Guest_Danielle100_*

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Because nothing that happens is ever the same. Because history is not science; you only get one shot, there are no trials or tests, and even situations that appear fairly similar end up being radically different if you look at them closely enough. Because the undefinable god Context rules the world. Because fog and friction pervade everything, and you can't ever know which way a lot of things will break anyway.

To use the original example: Nazism is not bad because a bunch of Nazis murdered millions of people and impoverished millions more. Nazism was bad long before that, because the basic principles on which it was founded were an affront to morality and to human decency in blatantly transparent ways. Nazism will remain bad because of those things. If the Second World War and the Holocaust had never happened, Nazism would still be bad. If somebody tried to resurrect Nazism, and people failed to respond to that, they would not have failed because they did not know history; they would have failed because they are ethically bankrupt to allow such a prima facie horrendous ideology to fester and grow.

To say that the best reason to study history is to be able to understand the present and predict the future is blatantly wrong. Historians don't understand the present, and no one can predict the future. Each historian has his or her own reason for doing history, but my personal one has nothing to do with 'learning to avoid repeating'. It is founded on the conviction that every human life has fundamental worth and meaning, and that the only way to honor that meaning is to preserve and learn about each one of those lives to the best of our ability, and to understand as much as we can about the worlds in which they lived.


Sometimes, I wonder why I keep reading BSN but something always happens that makes it all worthwhile. I love the bolded part.
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#66919
raging_monkey

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Sometimes, I wonder why I keep reading BSN but something always happens that makes it all worthwhile. I love the bolded part.

i feel the same way.

#66920
Fiery Phoenix

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Sometimes, I wonder why I keep reading BSN but something always happens that makes it all worthwhile. I love the bolded part.

Agreed, Eirene absolutely nailed it there. :D



#66921
Serza

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I'll just admit it.

 

I know nothing.

I shouldn't pretend I know anything.

My fault.



#66922
YourFunnyUncle

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The Nazi example is an important one, because that's not the only time people have come up with an elaborate justification for being really horrible to a general population, and it hasn't been the last. Much as we talk about not repeating history's mistakes we still live in a world were people are regularly taken off buses and shot because they don't know the words of some book or their parents were on the wrong side in some stupid civil war.

If anything I think there's a risk that knowing a small bit of horrible history lets people hold it up and say 'see, we're not that bad it's all okay', allowing them to take comfort in their own inaction.

That said knowing history does give you tools to make good decisions. My understanding was that the Marshall Plan was a solid go at learning from the mistakes of the previous subjugation of Germany and not messing it up this time, the Cold War still happened but that's another story.

Maybe the core thing is that pithy witticisms usually aren't good universal rules. It's like 'history is written by the victors' - sort of but no, something to keep in mind though.

I think in general that it's better to be as informed as one can be, but it's rank arrogance to think that as one human being, we can understand and accurately predict the actions of millions/billions of others...

#66923
LightningPoodle

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I'll just admit it.

 

I know nothing.

I shouldn't pretend I know anything.

My fault.

 

But you haven't said anything wrong. You've been told some very good contradictions to the saying but the saying isn't completely wrong. 



#66924
YourFunnyUncle

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I'll just admit it.

I know nothing.
I shouldn't pretend I know anything.
My fault.

Nah. Admitting when you're wrong is good. The lesson I think is that you should not be afraid of learning more or changing your ideas based on new information.

#66925
AlexiaRevan

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So much wisdom.....in here..its overwhelming... :lol:

 

giphy.gif


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